1. #2461
    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    Episodes 7-9 are officially licensed works. They are canon. The Rings of Power is basically fan fiction produced by Amazon.
    RoP is officially liscenced too.

    You see, there really is no difference. These are merely technicalities.

  2. #2462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Not quite true. While Tolkien went into great detail about the history, languages, and scenery of the world, his descriptions of the peoples and cultures are pretty light.

    The skin color of the dwarves was never stated, and as far as hobbits go the only mention of skin tone was in relation to the Harfoots mentioned in the prologue of LotR ("browner of skin" than other hobbits). With no baseline for either of these groups there's really no reason why they can't be represented by the whole range of human skin colors.

    As for elves, the descriptions of fair skin were brought up only in relation to named elves. As such most people assume that ALL elves were thus fair of skin, but again they're never described as such as a whole. Another way of looking at it would be why would Tolkien feel the need to point out the fair skin of each elf character he introduced if it was simply a common trait across the entire race?
    While Tolkien admitted that there is some murky space between whether elves are actually human or not (given that the two "races" could produce offspring together), given their origins, longevity, and fantastical powers it's also pretty common to consider them entirely non-hum and as such they don't have to adhere to the biological factors that delineate human skin tones. It's not beyond reason that there could be elves with darker skin tones, groups or individuals that Tolkien simply didn't describe in full. As far as I know the skin color of the silvan elves is never referenced so if you can break away from the fallacy that elvish skin must work the exact same way as human skin then having more skin tone variety there works just fine.
    At this point the argument comes across like looking for loopholes in a contract to get around the stated and intended terms and conditions. It aggravating and still done in bad faith.

    Middle Earth is based on Europe in terms of where it's situated on Arda. Populations are isolated by sheer distance and civilizations territorial and distrustful and prejudiced against any outsiders. There is no technological or magical mode of travel available to the masses which means no easy trade or migrations are going to happen and travel is time- and resource intensive, dangerous and inconvenient.

    Assuming biology for humanoids in Middle Earth works like it does in our world and considering it only takes about 1500-2000 years for skin color in a population to adapt to the environment (meaning UV radiation intensity) and Arda is already thousands of years old, there is absolutely zero reason why there should be any diversity in terms of skin tone, let alone race. Even a sudden influx of diverse migrants would've been absorbed into the general population after such a long time unless Apartheit is a thing in Middle Earth. And I doubt even these showrunners want to open that can of worms.

    Invoking magic or divinity as the reason for diversity also wouldn't do because

    -why would anyone care to begin with?
    -why would anyone care to keep this diversity going when there's natural, societal and economic pressure against it
    -it actually needs a much more elaborate explanation than the "genetics" angle
    -it's an insane stretch and kind of reminds me of the racist Mormon explanation for why black people exist

    I understand they WANT a diverse case at Amazon at any cost. But as I said, it would've been SO easy to just have Southerners and Easterners appear, think up a new race or two from outside Middle Earth and actually expand on the Legendarium instead of poorly copying what has already been done better by other shows or even preceding Tolkien movies and bulldozing the established world building in the process.

  3. #2463
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    RoP is officially liscenced too.

    You see, there really is no difference. These are merely technicalities.
    "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit"

    https://lrmonline.com/news/what-mate...ower-answered/

    The Rings of Power is a work of fan fiction because they didn't get the rights to tell the story of what actually happened in the Second Age.

  4. #2464
    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit"

    https://lrmonline.com/news/what-mate...ower-answered/

    The Rings of Power is a work of fan fiction because they didn't get the rights to tell the story of what actually happened in the Second Age.
    Right, but it's still a liscenced product nonetheless. We can call this a work of Fiction, but what differentiates it from being "Fan Fiction" is the fact it has an official liscence.

    Being liscenced has no bearing on whether something is 'canon' or not to the original books. Even the PJ movies are liscenced, and are non-canonical to the books. Canonicity doesn't really even matter here, which is the point. Even if they did have the rights to the Silmarillion, there is absolutely no story which they could make that would ever be considered canonical to the Second Age in the books. They can aim to be authentic, but it will never be anything but an adaptation or derivative work.

    No adaptation will ever be completely authentic to the books. That's the nature of being an adaptation.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 05:59 PM.

  5. #2465
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit"

    https://lrmonline.com/news/what-mate...ower-answered/

    The Rings of Power is a work of fan fiction because they didn't get the rights to tell the story of what actually happened in the Second Age.
    So they are illegally using the likes of Elrond and Galadriel?

  6. #2466
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right, but it's still a liscenced product nonetheless.

    Being liscenced has no bearing on whether something is 'canon' or not to the original books. Even the PJ movies are liscenced, and are non-canonical to the books. Canonicity doesn't really even matter here, which is the point. Even if they did have the rights to the Silmarillion, there is absolutely no story which they could make that would ever be considered canonical to the Second Age in the books. They can aim to be authentic, but it will never be anything but an adaptation or derivative work.

    No adaptation will ever be completely authentic to the books. That's the nature of being an adaptation.
    The LotR and Hobbit movies were adaptations. The Rings of Power is more of an extrapolation, given the small amount of source material regarding the Second Age they have. So again, calling it "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" is misleading, because it's not an actual Lord of the Rings story, it's just based on the works of JRR Tolkien that Amazon has the rights to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    So they are illegally using the likes of Elrond and Galadriel?
    Last time I checked, Elrond and Galadriel were characters in The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King, which Amazon has the rights to.

  7. #2467
    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    Invoking magic or divinity as the reason for diversity also wouldn't do because

    -why would anyone care to begin with?
    -why would anyone care to keep this diversity going when there's natural, societal and economic pressure against it
    -it actually needs a much more elaborate explanation than the "genetics" angle
    -it's an insane stretch and kind of reminds me of the racist Mormon explanation for why black people exist

    I understand they WANT a diverse case at Amazon at any cost. But as I said, it would've been SO easy to just have Southerners and Easterners appear, think up a new race or two from outside Middle Earth and actually expand on the Legendarium instead of poorly copying what has already been done better by other shows or even preceding Tolkien movies and bulldozing the established world building in the process.
    IMO, this is always going to the slippery slope argument to the point where nothing would ever be a satisfactory answer.

    Just the mere act of having Humans portray non-Humans will bring up any question of authenticity, and even if 99% of the audience is okay with it, there'd be some 1% jumping on the forums making a stink at how some detail isn't exact to how Tolkien envisioned them to be.

    Even if the Black skinned Elves and Dwarves may seem egregious to the source material, at the end of the day it doesn't even matter. Cuz we could just as likely be looking at how poorly translated the Orcs and Goblins are in being adapted as two different races, or how the Wargs don't ever talk in the movies, or some other banal shit that doesn't really matter. Like, Uruk Hai were never meant to be man-sized, yet the depiction in the movies is fine for what it is. The creative liberties don't get in the way of enjoying the fiction unless it breaks your personal suspense of disbelief; and that is going to be different for everyone.

    It's all splitting hairs in the grand scheme of things. What really matters is if they have a good story to tell and whether they are able to tell it. Whether it is canon or fan fiction is really up to the individual to decide. Cuz at the end of the day, I'd like to think we're all mature enough to decide whether 'Han shot first' for ourselves. It doesn't matter what the internet thinks at large, it doesn't matter what the corporations decide as being authentic or official, it only matters what we view for it ourselves. If the creative decisions break suspension of disbelief, then it is going to be a matter of personal interpretation and expectation, and little else beyond that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    The LotR and Hobbit movies were adaptations. The Rings of Power is more of an extrapolation, given the small amount of source material regarding the Second Age they have. So again, calling it "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" is misleading, because it's not an actual Lord of the Rings story, it's just based on the works of JRR Tolkien that Amazon has the rights to.
    Absolutely splitting hairs.

    There is no rule that an adaptation or derivative work can only use the brand name if it contains a certain amount of source material.

    "Star Wars: Visions" is a completely fictional series of non-canonical work that has the Star Wars branding to it, regardless of how much source material is used in each episiode, in each self-contained story and universe. You're literally just projecting here.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 06:36 PM.

  8. #2468
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    *Returns to thread*

    OMG you guys are still going on about it! Can we talk about something else please lol. We can pick on like 8 other things from the trailer and we are remaining with the same god damn topic lol make it stop!!! :P

    You know what? I am staying away from this thread until I watch the show, hopefully you all will have some new material to complain about then, so we can move on from this one.
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  9. #2469
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Gotta wait for the folks that'll hate watch, or watch angry YT videos, or have their friends tell them what their opinion should be to get anything new to complain about, tbh.

    What are we now, about 3 weeks to go for when it finally airs? I just hope its enjoyable, that's literally all I want from it lol
    I do like some of the creature designs. The weird monster (Uvanimor?) and the Balrog should be fun to see

  10. #2470
    The policy includes specific goals for Amazon Studios-based productions, including:

    Each film or series with a creative team of three or more people in above-the-line roles (Directors, Writers, Producers) should ideally include a minimum 30% women and 30% members of an underrepresented racial/ethnic group. This aspirational goal will increase to 50% by 2024.

    Casting actors whose identity (gender, gender identity, nationality, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability) aligns with the character they will be playing.

    Aiming to include one character from each of the following categories in speaking roles, with minimum 50% of these to be women: LGBTQIA+, person with a disability, and three regionally underrepresented race/ethnic/cultural groups. A single character can fulfill one or more of these identities.

    Seeking at least three bids from vendors or suppliers on productions, one of which must be from a woman-owned business and one from a minority-owned business.
    Forced diversity quotas being more important than entertainment value... so not even worth an illegal download.

  11. #2471
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The Black Panther is literally a story about an African Prince. It would not be appropriate to be played by a white man.
    Why is it not be appropriate? Compare to a black queen of Númenor.

  12. #2472
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomen View Post
    Why is it not be appropriate? Compare to a black queen of Númenor.
    Because the diversity mafia says so?

  13. #2473
    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    At this point the argument comes across like looking for loopholes in a contract to get around the stated and intended terms and conditions. It aggravating and still done in bad faith.
    They are indeed arguments in bad faith in the sense of people trying to push for connections, descriptions, and “purity” where there was none to begin with. You yourself claimed that Tolkien went into great detail to describe all these peoples and cultures when in truth he really didn’t, and then you just continue the trend of people inserting their own assumptions for what European fantasy SHOULD look like rather than allowing the vagueness of the original source material dictate what is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    Middle Earth is based on Europe in terms of where it's situated on Arda. Populations are isolated by sheer distance and civilizations territorial and distrustful and prejudiced against any outsiders. There is no technological or magical mode of travel available to the masses which means no easy trade or migrations are going to happen and travel is time- and resource intensive, dangerous and inconvenient.

    Assuming biology for humanoids in Middle Earth works like it does in our world and considering it only takes about 1500-2000 years for skin color in a population to adapt to the environment (meaning UV radiation intensity) and Arda is already thousands of years old, there is absolutely zero reason why there should be any diversity in terms of skin tone, let alone race. Even a sudden influx of diverse migrants would've been absorbed into the general population after such a long time unless Apartheit is a thing in Middle Earth. And I doubt even these showrunners want to open that can of worms.
    Again, that’s a lot assumptions that aren’t supported by the source material, as well as a completely unnecessary mandate to bring “biological realism” into a setting that made no effort to do so.

    The only connections that Tolkien made between Middle-earth and Europe was to use latitudes to give a sense of distance and climate. Tolkien was very clear that the landmass (and the cultures) he created was based on imagination and could not be matched up to what we know of as Europe, either archaeologically or geographically. The idea of Middle-earth as a “history of England” was a concept that Tolkien abandoned early on (explored only in the pre-LotR time traveling stories that Tolkien never completed or published).

    As for the biological element, the environmental effects of UV radiation on skin tone are drastically overvalued. Modern humans lived on the British Isles at least 40,000 years ago but the genetic mutations that were the primary contributors to the whitening of European skin are now thought to have only made their selective sweeps between 6,000-10,000 years ago. So for tens of thousands of years the people that inhabited Europe were still relatively dark skinned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    Invoking magic or divinity as the reason for diversity also wouldn't do because

    -why would anyone care to begin with?
    -why would anyone care to keep this diversity going when there's natural, societal and economic pressure against it
    -it actually needs a much more elaborate explanation than the "genetics" angle
    -it's an insane stretch and kind of reminds me of the racist Mormon explanation for why black people exist
    Neither magic nor divinity are needed as an explanation, but in a setting where both are present, why not? Unfortunately, it seems some people are just incapable of digesting the idea of white and non-white actors playing roles as the same people with no division that is relevant to the story.

    A Numenorian is just a Numenorian regardless of skin tone. Same goes with elves, dwarves, and so on. Since these peoples lack the racial baggage that our real world has associated with skin tone, there’s no need for it to be explained.

  14. #2474
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Except you're jumping the gun by assuming your hangups are the main reason they are failing, rather than defaulting to a more reasonable explanation that the overall production was just poorly justified or made overall.

    Like, does the virtue signalling actually take priority in any of the examples brought up here? Did Airbender and GITS really fail because of virtue signalling? I don't think so at all. Neither did Dragonball Evolution fail because of having a white actor lead. There would have been just as many problems with the movie if they'd cast an Asian actor as the lead, let's get this completely out there.

    These are all cases of bad shows being bad, bad movies being bad. There are plenty of series where diversity happens where it did not in the original, and the series were good because they were good. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind as an example. Even as far back as 10 years ago, people were criticizing making one of the leads a female, and people had major hangups over Starbuck's casting. Those issues don't even matter today in retrospect and no one gives credence to those former hangups.
    Actually, I was saying they are failing because of bad scripts / plots and production, but part of the reason these things are bad is beacuse they are hiring for acitvism and focusing on political messaging - they care more about this than actually doing something etnertaining or sensible -s o it affects script/production/content - because focus is diverted that way.

    But then we've always had far more bad movies/series than good.

  15. #2475
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomen View Post
    Why is it not be appropriate? Compare to a black queen of Númenor.
    Because Wakanda is defined by being a technologically advanced nation located in the African continent, making it a world power in a region that most people dismiss. Its peoples and cultures are designed as being directly related to the real world countries of that region. The connections to Africa and black people are key to Wakanda’s (and by extension, T’Challa’s) place in Marvel’s fictionalized version of Earth.

    As for Numenorians, they’re a society that have no dynamics related to skin color. No history of colonial subjugation, slavery, or discrimination based on skin tone. A black Numenorian queen is no different than a white Numenorian queen.

    At its core, skin color is little different than hair color, eye color, height, etc. The only reason it carries weight is the long history of racism based on it. It’s kind of insane that some people don’t recognize that history, or that those historical elements are present in some stories/characters and completely absent from others.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-10 at 08:13 PM.

  16. #2476
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Actually, I was saying they are failing because of bad scripts / plots and production, but part of the reason these things are bad is beacuse they are hiring for acitvism and focusing on political messaging - they care more about this than actually doing something etnertaining or sensible -s o it affects script/production/content - because focus is diverted that way.

    But then we've always had far more bad movies/series than good.
    I mean, like I said, the 'activism' has no real bearing on the quality or overall perception of whether a show is good or bad.

    This same 'Activism' exists in every Marvel and Star Wars product, and each is viewed on their own merits. Mandalorian S2 final episode literally had an all-girl badass team do badass stuff while Mandalorian blundered his way through and came out on top through the sheer strength of attrition of his literal plot armor. And it wasn't any less egregious than say the all-girl action scene at the end of Avenger's End-game. We know this shit exists, we know the reasons they are in these shows, and it doesn't really get in the way of making-or-breaking the shows or movies they are a part of.

    The only things that really matter is whether the overall product is good or bad; as you already acknowledge that we've had far more bad movies than good in this respect.

  17. #2477
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    You thought the post you replied to was "nasty"? Nasty?!

    All I saw was a very simple question. And they're right, what is there to even be discussed on the presence of at least one black lady dwarf that hasn't already been discussed several times at this point?

    Hell, I've now seen Amazon's apparent diversity policy listed as a negative, and then that negative corrected at least 3 times in the last few days. The thread is just a circle now. There doesn't seem to be anything new to really discuss.

    At least we're close to release, so conversation might pick up with some actually meaningful discussion on what people can finally watch.
    haha - I'm really curious to see whether the show launching provides another 130 pages of anything - be it real discussion or ongoing circle jerks.

    Usually there's much less discussion of any sort after the launch of the show/movie -regardless of the possibly hundred pages of "passionate argument" prior to its release. Even the WoT thread didn't double in size after release.

    The trend (at least here on MMOC) seems to be way more "discussion" on what might be/might happen/worst fears then anything about what actually goes on screen after release. At least in the threads where there's dozens and dozens of pages of arguments before release. (Doesn't really hold if the thread only had 4-8 pages before release.)

    Just interesting.

    Even those people who have their worst fears realized (by the show/movie) don't seem to be as passionate about it once they are 'proven right.' I'm hoping that means less hate watching going on, in any case. That's just silly.
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  18. #2478
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    As for Numenorians, they’re a society that have no dynamics related to skin color. No history of colonial subjugation, slavery, or discrimination based on skin tone. A black Numenorian queen is no different than a white Numenorian queen.
    ... I recommend you read Tolkien, beside hubris, colonial subjugation and slavery exerted on Harad were all aspects of Numenors downfall.
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  19. #2479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Because Wakanda is defined by being a technologically advanced nation located in the African continent, making it a world power in a region that most people dismiss. Its peoples and cultures are designed as being directly related to the real world countries of that region. The connections to Africa and black people are key to Wakanda’s (and by extension, T’Challa’s) place in Marvel’s fictionalized version of Earth.

    As for Numenorians, they’re a society that have no dynamics related to skin color. No history of colonial subjugation, slavery, or discrimination based on skin tone. A black Numenorian queen is no different than a white Numenorian queen.

    At its core, skin color is little different than hair color, eye color, height, etc. The only reason it carries weight is the long history of racism based on it. It’s kind of insane that some people don’t recognize that history, or that those historical elements are present in some stories/characters and completely absent from others.
    Tell me you haven't read Tolkien without telling me you haven't read Tolkien.

    The Numenorians subjugated Harad for so long that they wound up siding with Sauron during the War of the Ring.

  20. #2480
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    ... I recommend you read Tolkien, beside hubris, colonial subjugation and slavery exerted on Harad were all aspects of Numenors downfall.
    “Based on skin tone” being the operative phrase. There are plenty of real world examples of such conquests and oppression with skin color not being a factor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Tell me you haven't read Tolkien without telling me you haven't read Tolkien.

    The Numenorians subjugated Harad for so long that they wound up siding with Sauron during the War of the Ring.
    See above.

    The first Numenorians that arrived in Harad helped the natives by teaching them things like agriculture and craftsmanship while creating settlements with seemingly no sense of superiority, racial or otherwise (an idyllic version of colonialism, perhaps).

    It wasn’t until the reigns of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir, who were proud and greedy men, that the oppression of the natives began. Their motivations seemed more in line with greed (pillaging the land of precious resources) and the first signs of the shadow that spread across Numenor. The enslavement and human sacrifices during the reign of Ar-Pharazon were certainly more a direct influence of Sauron by that time.

    So no, the point still stands that the written word doesn’t specifically point to hatred based on skin color and therefor it need not be a part of the setting (or compared to settings where skin color is a factor).
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-10 at 10:58 PM.

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