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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    then don't pretend it's all about the "community"....

    *all the feed back they needed to change their minds were the $$ of the people asking for it to be added nothing else. (anyone that thinks they seen the light and now offering it out of the goodness of their hearts, I have great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you).
    You're free to think whatever you want to think but I personally have a hard time believing they would straight up tell an audience "nah, we're not doing this even if it means more money for us," then change their mind only because of the money. I'm not saying Blizzard is altruistic or to be commended for their great act of giving us the ability to pay for services which should arguably be free, but rather I'm pointing out the framing you're using for this change is pretty dismissive (and a bit nihilistic) since one of the major complaints players have about WoW devs is that they "don't listen to the community."

  2. #62
    it didnt. the social aspect evolved on its own, BC classic is not any more social than retail.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You're free to think whatever you want to think but I personally have a hard time believing they would straight up tell an audience "nah, we're not doing this even if it means more money for us," then change their mind only because of the money. I'm not saying Blizzard is altruistic or to be commended for their great act of giving us the ability to pay for services which should arguably be free, but rather I'm pointing out the framing you're using for this change is pretty dismissive (and a bit nihilistic) since one of the major complaints players have about WoW devs is that they "don't listen to the community."
    ya money has never made any business change it's mind...

    and I agree they don't listen *(unless they can cash in).

    *oops forgot they also let their egos also block listening to feedback... (so it's not only cash).
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2022-08-11 at 02:03 AM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by zugg zugg View Post
    Dungeons are literally the lowest form of social interaction in WoW. Dungeons require very little if any communication to kill bosses. Most people in dungeons are looking for a quick in and out.
    this is why. dungeons weren't always content that was beaten because you knew how to breath. the lack of difficulty led to less communication, which led to less relationships being formed, which led to guilds becoming less and less meaningful, etc, etc. it was one of those things that was great at the time, but was detrimental in the long run and was likely to go unseen until the damage was done.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.
    Just plain wrong.

    My guild, the one that until recently lasted from Vanilla (I had to take a hefty break from WoW), was formed on the back of meeting 2 randos questing behind Gurubashi Arena looking for Tethis. We went on to do a bunch more quests and chat for a couple of hours upon which it was decided we'd form a guild. I had just enough gold, so we met up a bit later in Orgrimmar and did the deed, Malevolence was born. Those 2 stopped playing a few months later but by then the guild was bigger and many more random interactions had swelled the ranks. I still remember their names, Loob and Hambone, the Forsaken Rogue and Tauren Shaman.

    While I didnt get to know them well, I have other friends to this day formed in similar ways, in fact I'm chatting to one right now who is discussing his and his brothers return for Dragonflight and trying to convince me to come with them to a guild where several of our old guildies still play.

    You may not have ever experienced it, but in Vanilla, TBC and Wrath, many made friends and met guild members this way. The random dungeon finder only reduced this because it was cross server and allowed people the more responsibility free anonymity that leads to behaving like asshats, where previously being a ninja or just generally horrible got you a reputation on a server that had consequences. At the same time, dungeons got less and less about overcoming the challenge and more about a loot speedrun.

  6. #66
    Man i love classic, been loving TBC but I have been looking forward to RDF this whole time.. one thing I hate is making a group for a dungeon.. or waiting for enough guildes to get online.. I just want to be able to optimize my time and that means questing/farming while Looking for a group.. I hate just sitting in a city and spamming I want to be playing and RDF just makes that so much easier to do...

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The argument is relevant because it's literally the reason they're choosing not to add the RDF to Classic. Blizzard wants the Classic experience to be different than the retail experience. They do not want the experiences of the two products to become too similar because the driving principle behind adding Classic in the first place was that the retail experience had changed so much it had inadvertently distanced itself from players who would otherwise still play the game.
    That is not what they said when they made the decision to not add it to Classic. The argument that if you want RDF in Classic you should go play retail literally is not relevant to the discussion...Like I mentioned in my post, had you took the time to read it...RDF isn't even and hasn't been a spotlight feature in Retail in many years. It doesn't impact the social community in the way people are making it out to. It's probably spent more time in obscurity by this point than it ever did in the spotlight. Trying to make Classic not like retail is dumbest excuse imaginable because Retails issues are far more complex then a couple QOL systems. RDF doesn't hinder anyone's ability to socialize, it hardly even changes how people will socialize in Classic. It's still more efficient to find yourself some friends to Que with, not to mention you can literally still do it the old fashion way but obviously it's far less efficient.

    The problem is people are trying to preserve the social structures of a very specific part of the game that struggles to maintain healthy and reliable activity. People will literally let dungeons wither and turn to dust before they even attempt to acknowledge the issue. I mean what's the point of protecting the "social" environment in content a large portion of your population struggle to gain entry to. These sort of targeted fixes for a few of the systems that struggle with healthy activity are important because otherwise they'll need to do sweeping changes which I think no one wants.

  8. #68
    The introduction of RDF more than likely "saved" my subscription when it was introduced. Playing on a low pop realm was a pain in the ass. I sure as shit dont miss spending hours and hours in Dalaran spamming trade (Everyone did it back then) and LFG to find group to farm dungeon badges. Wether it was for the weekly, to gear up or to buy Heirlooms.

    Now *maybe* it made finding the group that tiny bit more special but I cant remember any special comraderie forming as we "merrily romp through the instances" like some band of brothers coming together from DA COMMINITUH

    The convenience of being able to do dungeons at more or less any hour of the day (within reason lol) FAR outweighs any illusion of "comraderie" you might get in exchange for one, maybe two dungeons before someone inevitably has to go...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    it didnt

    its just an excuse for people
    Exactly this.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    lol, when they told us RDF wasn't coming to WotLK Classic Ion literally said "you can play retail if you want the RDF," so I'm not sure how you can say that it isn't relevant. You're just wall-of-texting me about how unimportant you feel the feature is and how upset you are that Blizzard failed to listen to you when designing their billion-dollar MMO. I'm sorry Captain Center of the Known Universe but you can't always get what you want. And that means you aren't getting the RDF.

    Ciao.
    LMAO, when they made the decision to not add RDF to classic the reasoning they gave was not "go play retail". Ions comment wasn't even in the original post, nor was it a reasoning..Would it be the first time they've said something that was wrong? Ah I see clearly I'm the only one who is upset about this...there definitely isn't many threads and comments against the decision...it was totally me who started this thread to begin with...a billion dollar MMO has never made decisions that they've stated were not the best...Yes clearly in everything I've posted implies I'm Captain Center of the Known Universe. I never said anything about always getting what I want.

    Stop projecting.

    Ciao.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaLimaCharlie View Post
    LMAO, when they made the decision to not add RDF to classic the reasoning they gave was not "go play retail". Ions comment wasn't even in the original post, nor was it a reasoning..Would it be the first time they've said something that was wrong? Ah I see clearly I'm the only one who is upset about this...there definitely isn't many threads and comments against the decision...it was totally me who started this thread to begin with...a billion dollar MMO has never made decisions that they've stated were not the best...Yes clearly in everything I've posted implies I'm Captain Center of the Known Universe. I never said anything about always getting what I want.

    Stop projecting.

    Ciao.
    Broham, this was in the WotLK Classic reveal trailer... literally the very first we heard about anything related to WotLK Classic. I'm not even fully invested in the RDF debate, I just took issue with you dismissing a valid reason for its non-inclusion in WotLK Classic to spout some weird conspiracy theory based entirely on your personal wants and desires. I said it myself earlier in this thread -- I don't particularly care one direction or the other. I'd use it if it were there but I also don't think this is nearly as "game-breaking" as many on this forum make it seem. I was around and fairly active in the Classic megathread on this forum that existed prior to Classic's announcement and there were thousands upon thousands of posts from players that all said the same thing: The RDF is where the game really started to wander off of its course and was a key motivating factor in their decision to stop playing the game. These were the people pleading desperately with Blizzard to "bring back" the old feeling WoW had with it and these are, presumably, the same people who are now playing the game. It's quite strange that once we get back to the point where Blizzard has arrived at another crossroads for the direction of Classic moving forward, there seems to be a portion of the audience upset that they made a decision at all, criticizing the developers for not adding the very feature so many other players decried as "the beginning of the end" for the game.

  12. #72
    Before it people were more wary of their reputation on their realm, which encouraged less toxicity and dickish behaviour less they become a pariah... having to resort to paying for a realm transfer.

    Come cross realms, that was thrown out the window. People could do what they wanted with total abandon.

  13. #73
    RDF is an anti-social anti-MMO feature, that's why it's bad. A function that allows you to insta-teleport to dungeons with 4 other random strangers that you will never see again after the run ends, is antithetical to what an MMO is supposed to be. You can literally just sit in town all day queueing for dungeons....that's not an MMO, that's a lobby game loot shooter.

    Why even have a game world when you can just teleport around everywhere? Travel is trivialized by being able to insta teleport to every dungeon.

    Why even have realms if everything is just cross realm with other strangers? Plus being cross realm gives people free reign to be assholes and ninja shit because there's no social repercussions for doing so, like there would be without cross-realm shit.

    It sacrifices socialization in favor of convenience, so of course all the retail kiddies and "I can only play 10 minutes per day" gamer dads want it. Because god forbid you have to talk to people and travel places in an MMORPG.
    Last edited by anon5123; 2022-08-11 at 02:53 AM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    What, you don't relish the opportunity to sit in Dalaran spamming trade chat for 45 minutes to grab a tank only for one of the DPS to leave halfway through the wait and then have the healer AFK out without saying anything?
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...07495388426240 (in 2013)

    I have said this several times lately, but another expansion of spamming LFG for a dungeon pug and I myself might have quit.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    RDF is an anti-social anti-MMO feature, that's why it's bad. A function that allows you to insta-teleport to dungeons with 4 other random strangers that you will never see again after the run ends, is antithetical to what an MMO is supposed to be. You can literally just sit in town all day queueing for dungeons....that's not an MMO, that's a lobby game loot shooter.

    Why even have a game world when you can just teleport around everywhere? Travel is trivialized by being able to insta teleport to every dungeon.

    Why even have realms if everything is just cross realm with other strangers? Plus being cross realm gives people free reign to be assholes and ninja shit because there's no social repercussions for doing so, like there would be without cross-realm shit.

    It sacrifices socialization in favor of convenience, so of course all the retail kiddies and "I can only play 10 minutes per day" gamer dads want it. Because god forbid you have to talk to people and travel places in an MMORPG.
    Odd when I played LK with RDF I never had to sit in the city all day.... I fairly sure it worked everywhere... (seems to be a you problem, granted even before RDF most people at max level just sat around in the cites spamming LFG) I was personally out farming\fishing and doing dailies till I got summoned....

    Ohh I can't teleport but I can Speed fly there, the world will be soooo full (if you happen to look up).

    Guessing you never really played old wow, people were ninja's and assholes long before RDF....(from what I hear on BC classic it's worse on the mega servers now, still have a chance to never see the same people), Retail kiddies oooh (I have not touch retail since 2 months in BFA and it was total crap, before that I quit at WOD) *and it being crap had nothing to do with any dungeon finders.
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2022-08-11 at 03:17 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.

    The reality is that people have goals in mind, and they're getting together with other people to achieve those goals. This can be easier or harder, depending on the systems available. Making it harder doesn't suddenly melt the icy hearts of social isolates. It doesn't turn "OMG KICK THE NOOB" ragemongers into kinder, gentler people just because they now have to spend 20 minutes scouring chat and hopping on a flight path.

    All this does is extend the lifetime of content by limiting how many dungeons people can do, and the only ones benefiting from this are Blizzard. The fact that the "but muh COMMUUUNIITEEEEE" white knights are flocking to support the phantasmagoric illusion of some kind of illustrious "community" that we all now get to graciously be embraced by as Blizzard "saves players from themselves" by forcing them to waste time is nothing but a cruel, twisted irony.
    As someone who flew from Stormwind to Morgan's Vigil upwards of 20 times when people for my BRD or LBRS dropped out midflight this last paragraph is something I will fully "this".
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

    People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.

    The reality is that people have goals in mind, and they're getting together with other people to achieve those goals. This can be easier or harder, depending on the systems available. Making it harder doesn't suddenly melt the icy hearts of social isolates. It doesn't turn "OMG KICK THE NOOB" ragemongers into kinder, gentler people just because they now have to spend 20 minutes scouring chat and hopping on a flight path.

    All this does is extend the lifetime of content by limiting how many dungeons people can do, and the only ones benefiting from this are Blizzard. The fact that the "but muh COMMUUUNIITEEEEE" white knights are flocking to support the phantasmagoric illusion of some kind of illustrious "community" that we all now get to graciously be embraced by as Blizzard "saves players from themselves" by forcing them to waste time is nothing but a cruel, twisted irony.
    At best you make a friend in a guild, meet a nice person in a pug, and they meet someone somewhere. Then the four of you struggle with a pugged in person till you make another friend. Of course this takes 2 expansions to happen then someone bails for "greener grass" and the struggle starts again. At this point we have 10 people in our group who plays at different times so we still pug a lot but the weekends are nice.
    Me thinks Chromie has a whole lot of splaining to do!

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Broham, this was in the WotLK Classic reveal trailer... literally the very first we heard about anything related to WotLK Classic. I'm not even fully invested in the RDF debate, I just took issue with you dismissing a valid reason for its non-inclusion in WotLK Classic to spout some weird conspiracy theory based entirely on your personal wants and desires. I said it myself earlier in this thread -- I don't particularly care one direction or the other. I'd use it if it were there but I also don't think this is nearly as "game-breaking" as many on this forum make it seem. I was around and fairly active in the Classic megathread on this forum that existed prior to Classic's announcement and there were thousands upon thousands of posts from players that all said the same thing: The RDF is where the game really started to wander off of its course and was a key motivating factor in their decision to stop playing the game. These were the people pleading desperately with Blizzard to "bring back" the old feeling WoW had with it and these are, presumably, the same people who are now playing the game. It's quite strange that once we get back to the point where Blizzard has arrived at another crossroads for the direction of Classic moving forward, there seems to be a portion of the audience upset that they made a decision at all, criticizing the developers for not adding the very feature so many other players decried as "the beginning of the end" for the game.
    Broham, being told "go play retail" is not a reasonable response to someone wanting RDF in Wrath...it's weird you're trying to defend this, especially seeing as you're "not invested" in the RDF debate. It's even stranger you keep targeting me with these personal comments, literally everyone here is talking about their personal wants and desires.

    Also sense you seem to have difficulty with reading...I've said 3 times now what Ion said was not a reasoning behind why they're not adding it into Wrath...he is saying if you want it you can go play retail, which is again for the how many ever times I've said this, an unreasonable response.
    Last edited by DeltaLimaCharlie; 2022-08-11 at 07:36 AM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Deferionus View Post
    Did you play WoW prior to the implementation of the dungeon finder and cross server?
    i had, since march 2005, and VAST majority of people i met in dungeons before finder barely uttered hello, let alone more... and sure, people added you to friend list (and vice versa) if you did well and they contacted you later - usualy to do dungeon or raid or whatever, not for friendly chat... were some friendships formed via wow back then? sure, are some now? definitely, just bcs your personal experience is different doesnt change a damn thing...
    personaly, i made more friends in wow recently due to communities than i had made before in dungeons... hell i made more friends waiting for rare spawns on timeless isle (huolon im looking at you) than in dungeons in years before...

  20. #80
    I enjoyed RDF and most of the time had great experiences. I did run guild groups from time to time, but I actually would go with RDF most often since it was pretty fast and I could farm at night while most of my guild was offline and get groups.

    I will just skip WOTLK classic until RDF is added which will save me some money anyway since i barely play retail anymore and will likely skip the new expansion like I did the last one.

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