So… Tinkers

[Triceron]

Except solutions #1 and #2 do not work because Undermine is neither a multi-race hub, nor is of a separate race altogether. And #3 fails because we don't have one for the Alliance.

How can you attribute this to a place that doesn't yet exist?

How do you know Undermine couldn't be presented as a multi-race hub? For all we know there could be a group of Gnomes and Mechagnomes who made their way to Undermine and establish workshops there in the time we've been in Shadowlands/Dragon Isles.

There's a lot of assumptions you're making about something that doesn't yet exist.

Zero difference. I'm still contesting your assertion.

Sure, feel free to. I'll wait to see your response.

Big disagree. The dracthyr is still just as constrained, creatively speaking, considering it's supposed to resemble dragons, just like dragonkin does.

Yet they're still highly marketable right out the bat.

Are there Dragonkin that can use all 5 Dragonflight's magic? Are there purple or white or multicolor options for Dragonkin? Do they have the ability to Soar?

No, they don't. Dragonkin are far more limited and constrained than Dracthyr.

[Unholyground]

An extra specialization for each class would be the best way to go. Every single class has lower that would support another spec for each of them. Balancing be damned they need to do something like that in the future to keep the game fresh.

[Peacemoon]

Dark Age of Camelot had a ton of copy/paste classes across the three factions. Aesthetically different, technically nearly identical. I really don't want to hear anyone bring of DAoC when it comes to class variety

I’m sorry, but what? This is a hilarious take. The classes were very unique and different. Yes of course you still had tank/healer/melee/ranged tropes, but no two classes were the same.

Heck Midgard characters all use 2h weapons by default, even healers! And the different buffs, cc and debuff were all on different classes for each realm. So you are just wrong.

You even quoted my 1st post where I detailed how Bards in DAoC were Healers/Rogues/Warriors depending on which realm you played!

[Ielenia]

How can you attribute this to a place that doesn't yet exist?

How do you know Undermine couldn't be presented as a multi-race hub?

"The Undermine, or just Undermine, is the subterranean capital city of the goblins"
"Undermine epitomizes the goblins' complex, unpredictable mindset."

Seems pretty well-defined. And like I said to Teriz: Undermine is a city, not a continent, like the Dragon Isles.

Sure, feel free to. I'll wait to see your response.

Which I already had when I pointed out how dragonkin has been a requested race for quite some time, and what players would most often point at when they asked for a 'playable dragon race'.

Yet they're still highly marketable right out the bat.

So would dragonkin. What's the problem?

Are there Dragonkin that can use all 5 Dragonflight's magic? Are there purple or white or multicolor options for Dragonkin? Do they have the ability to Soar?

They could. They could. And they could. Demon hunters couldn't glide before Legion. Illidan was the only one with wings, remember?

[Triceron]

"The Undermine, or just Undermine, is the subterranean capital city of the goblins"
"Undermine epitomizes the goblins' complex, unpredictable mindset."
Seems pretty well-defined. And like I said to Teriz: Undermine is a city, not a continent, like the Dragon Isles.

Yeah, and the Goblin race isn't universally Horde-aligned.

Again, what part of 'Goblins are a neutral race' do you not understand?

Which I already had when I pointed out how dragonkin has been a requested race for quite some time, and what players would most often point at when they asked for a 'playable dragon race'.

And Blizzard didn't make a Dragonkin race playable. They create a completely new Dracthyr, which is designed to be WAY more appealing as a player race than any conventional Dragonkin.

So would dragonkin. What's the problem?

No problem at all. They aren't playable. They haven't been chosen to be playable. Drac'thyr are playable. I'm literally pointing out objective fact here.

They could. They could. And they could. Demon hunters couldn't glide before Legion. Illidan was the only one with wings, remember?

Sure, I do. That's why we specifically have Elven Illidari playable in the image of Illidan, and not merely standard Demon Hunters of many races the way we had for Death Knights and Monks, or any Elven DH depicted prior to Legion.

We have ones that have wings, ones who have demonic traits. That's another example of something Blizzard did to make them markettable.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, and the Goblin race isn't universally Horde-aligned.

Again, what part of 'Goblins are a neutral race' do you not understand?

I never said Undermine is "horde-aligned". I said that Undermine is strictly a goblin town, which means the goblins would be getting the lion's share of the development and story in the expansion, of which the Horde would be greatly benefited from it since they have a faction of goblins in their roster.

And Blizzard didn't make a Dragonkin race playable. They create a completely new Dracthyr, which is designed to be WAY more appealing as a player race than any conventional Dragonkin.

Highly debatable, considering the backlash from part of the player base.

No problem at all. They aren't playable. They haven't been chosen to be playable. Drac'thyr are playable. I'm literally pointing out objective fact here.

No, you said they are playable because they are "better" and "superior" to the dragonkin. And that is far from "objective".

Sure, I did.

So what's the problem if current dragonkin apparently cannot 'glide' or 'soar'?

[Rocksteady 87]

It's almost like that if Blizzard did make an expansion built around Kezan and Undermine, they'd update it so that it was a more cosmopolitan place, likely turning it into an international trade hub. It took all of 0 seconds to form that one, singular possibility. (Nevermind that if they did this, Kezan would only be part of a larger expansion--like World of Warcraft: The South Seas--rather than the entirety thereof. But shh, we won't mention that because it completely annihilates everything the above guy has to say on the subject. Warlords of Draenor say hi, btw.)

But hey, why consider that when you can irrationally hate goblins, gnomes, and tinkers while trying to pretend you're some kind of enlightened hyper-intellectual, right?

[nvaelz]

Hunter is kinda like tinker already, I know you want 50+ classes in the game but that's not how Blizzard add to the classes in WoW.

[Triceron]

I never said Undermine is "horde-aligned". I said that Undermine is strictly a goblin town, which means the goblins would be getting the lion's share of the development and story in the expansion, of which the Horde would be greatly benefited from it since they have a faction of goblins in their roster.

Sure, you're free to have that opinion.

But I'll point out you went a round-about way to say exactly what I said. Whether you intend to or not, your argument is akin to saying Goblins are Horde-aligned. If the Horde gains any great benefits due to having direct connections to the Goblin race, then we're talking about aligning the Undermine Goblins to the Horde. You're literally mincing words and arguing semantics. I'm not sure why.

Highly debatable, considering the backlash from part of the player base.

What new class hasn't gotten backlash in some shape or form?

DK's were overpowered and way overtuned.
Monks and Pandaren were highly scrutinized and controversial.
Demon Hunters were heavily criticized for cannabalizing existing classes and having only 2 specs.

Sounds like Evokers are right on par with people having backlash over the new class/race.

No, you said they are playable because they are "better" and "superior" to the dragonkin. And that is far from "objective".

If you're gonna quote me, quote me. Don't do a half-assed job of paraphrasing and attacking the strawman.

So what's the problem if current dragonkin apparently cannot 'glide' or 'soar'?

Nothing. As I pointed out, Dracthyr are more marketable because they have these features built into their traits.

Again, objective fact. There's nothing to twist here, I'm literally pointing out what Blizzard has done to make Dracthyr more appealing than standard Dragonkin. If they merely did this to Dragonkin and made them playable, I wouldn't be here pointing out the existence of Dracthyr.

[qwerty123456]

But we literally got playable dragons that have the powers of the aspects. What are we missing?

They arent dragons. dragons aren't bipedal. And they have the powers of multiple dragon flights. What people wanted was a Unicorn that can shoot laser beams from its eyes and what we got are inbred donkey furries with a cardboard horn stapled on their head who can fart pixie dust and cry sour cream.

[Ielenia]

Whether you intend to or not, your argument is akin to saying Goblins are Horde-aligned. If the Horde gains any great benefits due to having direct connections to the Goblin race, then we're talking about aligning the Undermine Goblins to the Horde. You're literally mincing words and arguing semantics. I'm not sure why.

I'm not aligning anyone with anything. I'm simply pointing out that the story and development would focus on goblins, which, by proxy thanks to the Bilgewater Cartel, would have much more influence on the Horde than on the Alliance. And others races would have little to no development in comparison to goblins, especially those that don't align with the Horde.

In every expansion, all races got a similar share of the story, focus and development. I don't see how this could be the case in a goblin-centric expansion.

Sounds like Evokers are right on par with people having backlash over the new class/race.

Except they don't really compare because this is an instance of "we've been asking for dragons, you gave us duhrguins." Dragonkin were already a pretty serviceable race that people have been asking for, and could have been empowered to "use all five dragonflight magic" and soar through the skies. After all, dragonkin are humanoids transformed by the magic of dragons, so what's the issue going one step beyond?

If you're gonna quote me, quote me. Don't do a half-assed job of paraphrasing and attacking the strawman.

Drac'thyr is a far superior, new concept that can use all 5 Dragonflight's magic.

Nothing. As I pointed out, Dracthyr are more marketable because they have these features built into their traits.

But that's not inherent of the dracthyr. Dragonkin would easily have been made to have those traits as well, couldn't they?

[agentsi]

?

So you're saying they're limited to the confines of your imagination?

Last I checked they threw curveballs in the form of MoP, Warlords, and Evoker. They haven't even finished touching on all classic RPG themes.

Obviously, your reading comprehension levels are not very high. None of Blizzard's patterns for their expansions or classes are based on my imagination. They're based on what Blizzard likes to do. There were no curveballs to most folks, everything they've done expansion-wise has made sense in one way or another. Whether you agree with that or not, is not my problem. Sounds like a personal issue you should take up with Blizzard and how they do things.

[Teriz]

They arent dragons. dragons aren't bipedal.

According to Blizzard they can be.

And they have the powers of multiple dragon flights.

So do Chromatic drakes, another type of artificial dragon.

What people wanted was a Unicorn that can shoot laser beams from its eyes and what we got are inbred donkey furries with a cardboard horn stapled on their head who can fart pixie dust and cry sour cream.

People wanted a magical flying reptile with the power of the aspects that breathes fire and can transform into a mortal.

That’s exactly what we got. Sorry it doesn’t appeal to you.

[Triceron]

I'm not aligning anyone with anything. I'm simply pointing out that the story and development would focus on goblins, which, by proxy thanks to the Bilgewater Cartel, would have much more influence on the Horde than on the Alliance. And others races would have little to no development in comparison to goblins, especially those that don't align with the Horde.

What does 'have much more influence on the Horde' mean if you're not talking about alignment?

Like, in terms where it becomes somehow unacceptable to present Undermine as a neutral hub? Is there any actual point being made here? Because otherwise I'm hearing the expression of a concern which doesn't actually impact the ability for Blizzard to actually use Undermine as a neutral hub in a future expansion.

For example, I could say I'm concerned that the future of PVP would be impacted by the existence of Cross Faction raiding, since the lore is now bridging peace between factions to the point where they can actively raid with each other. Would you agree with the concern that the lore of Cross Faction will impact the future of PVP in WoW moving forward? Would you legitimately be concerned?

I would not, because Cross Faction lore would have zero affect to do with PVP at all. Just as your concern of the lore has zero affect on the actual nature of making Undermine into a neutral or cross-faction hub.

In every expansion, all races got a similar share of the story, focus and development. I don't see how this could be the case in a goblin-centric expansion.

Well, that's something you'll have to figure out for yourself. Thanks for sharing your concern, but it's not one that I agree with or share in this case.

I mean, I sure feel sorry for anyone who has a Pandaren main because they haven't had any focus or development since fucking Pandaria. Sad reality is not all races get an equal share of the limelight.

Except they don't really compare because this is an instance of "we've been asking for dragons, you gave us duhrguins." Dragonkin were already a pretty serviceable race that people have been asking for, and could have been empowered to "use all five dragonflight magic" and soar through the skies. After all, dragonkin are humanoids transformed by the magic of dragons, so what's the issue going one step beyond?

Well yeah, the best thing to do would be to literally have playable dragons. I'd say that's even more markettable.

But Blizzard didn't give it to us, so they gave us the next best thing they could come up with. And that next best thing isn't Dragonkin, wah wah.

But that's not inherent of the dracthyr. Dragonkin would easily have been made to have those traits as well, couldn't they?

They could also give us a Dark Ranger class instead of half-assing Hunter customizations. Wah wah.

[Teriz]

It's almost like that if Blizzard did make an expansion built around Kezan and Undermine, they'd update it so that it was a more cosmopolitan place, likely turning it into an international trade hub. It took all of 0 seconds to form that one, singular possibility. (Nevermind that if they did this, Kezan would only be part of a larger expansion--like World of Warcraft: The South Seas--rather than the entirety thereof. But shh, we won't mention that because it completely annihilates everything the above guy has to say on the subject. Warlords of Draenor say hi, btw.)

But hey, why consider that when you can irrationally hate goblins, gnomes, and tinkers while trying to pretend you're some kind of enlightened hyper-intellectual, right?

It’s really dumb isn’t it? Undermine is the center of the Goblin world, ruled by TRADE princes who are incredibly wealthy, greedy and corrupt. Just look at what Blizzard did with the Goblin-controlled city of Gadgetzan in Hearthstone;






You’re telling me they couldn’t go just as crazy for Undermine? Undermine would be like this several times over.

[Ielenia]

What does 'have much more influence on the Horde' mean if you're not talking about alignment?

Because developing the goblins as a whole means the Bilgewater Cartel goblins are also developed, i.e., the playable goblin race, i.e. a playable Horde race. But at no point whatsoever I said that Undermine itself would be Horde-aligned.

I mean, I sure feel sorry for anyone who has a Pandaren main because they haven't had any focus or development since fucking Pandaria. Sad reality is not all races get an equal share of the limelight.

What's your point? I'm talking about one-sided development.

They could also give us a Dark Ranger class instead of half-assing Hunter customizations. Wah wah.

And what's your point? Seems to be you're arguing solely for the sake of arguing, here. So unless you start making some actual arguments instead of accusing me of "semantics", I'm calling it here.

- - - Updated - - -

It's almost like that if Blizzard did make an expansion built around Kezan and Undermine, they'd update it so that it was a more cosmopolitan place, likely turning it into an international trade hub.

So change it from what it was into something different?

[Teriz]

So change it from what it was into something different?

The Dragon Isles was originally a raid, Kul’Tiras was just an island populated by normal sized humans, and the Broken Isles wasn’t originally the size of a continent.

So yeah, it’s sort of what Blizzard does.

Even with that, a landmass ruled by neutral and wealthy trade princes SHOULD be a cosmopolitan international hub.

[Polybius]

Obviously, your reading comprehension levels are not very high. None of Blizzard's patterns for their expansions or classes are based on my imagination. They're based on what Blizzard likes to do. There were no curveballs to most folks, everything they've done expansion-wise has made sense in one way or another. Whether you agree with that or not, is not my problem. Sounds like a personal issue you should take up with Blizzard and how they do things.

Agitated much? I take it you're more comfortable taking jabs at people and not arguments.

First off, there is no pattern, and its been proven many times with Teriz. This is where your argument falls apart. Second, they're not restricted to one theme per expansion. Lastly, they don't have a limited number of expansions to push, if there's an RPG element they can pull you can bet your ass they will use it to milk this game as long as possible.

[ResentfulUK]

People like to be so sure of Tinkers every time they get brought up. My signature is a testament to just how utterly fixated they are on this concept while not even realising how unlikely it is happen.

Can it happen? Yes. Has the most opportune moments and elements of the game to introduce Tinkers naturally occurred? Yes.

Will Tinkers be added in the next 6 years? No.

[Triceron]

Because developing the goblins as a whole means the Bilgewater Cartel goblins are also developed, i.e., the playable goblin race, i.e. a playable Horde race. But at no point whatsoever I said that Undermine itself would be Horde-aligned.

And how does that get in the way of Blizzard actually making Undermine a neutral hub? You're already freely agreeing that it's not Horde aligned. And merely having association to the Bilgewater means nothing - the lore is that all the Cartels are in competition with each other anyways which pits both the Alliance and Horde in neutral standing with all other Cartel.

Bilgewater have zero lasting connections to Undermine since Gallywix left the Horde.

What's your point? I'm talking about one-sided development.

You're talking about a fear of on-sided development. My point is there's nothing to fear because Blizzard will find a way to introduce checks and balances regardless of how one-sided it may seem.

Like them getting off their asses and making Kul Tiran playable when they initially only planned Zandalari as a playable race for Horde with no actually new Alliance Allied Race counterpart to match up. It was merely going to be Dark Iron Dwarves and Zandalari. They then introduced checks and balances (in the form of Kul Tiran and Mag'har race options) to equalize the playing field.

If all previous expansions have not had the problem of one-sided development, I don't see any cause for concern in that suddenly happening in the future, especially where an obviously neutral race focus is concerned.

And what's your point? Seems to be you're arguing solely for the sake of arguing, here. So unless you start making some actual arguments instead of accusing me of "semantics", I'm calling it here.

I mean, hypotheticals work both ways, doesn't it? If you have a problem with certain things, then you can also apply the same level of flexibility to imagine Blizzard making it work out.

Dragonkin aren't playable. Could Blizzard make them playable? Sure they can. Undermine isn't an expansion location. Could Blizzard make it an expansion location? Sure they can.