Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Nymrohd]

Just ban 'em all until they fix their own country.

As long as we don't ban them, their best and brightest can keep fleeing the country. That's as important a demographic damage as the war casualties.

[Lahis]

As long as we don't ban them, their best and brightest can keep fleeing the country. That's as important a demographic damage as the war casualties.

They can always become political refugees even without visas.

[Nymrohd]

They can always become political refugees even without visas.

A much more complex process.

[Corvus]

The visa thing might be more about tourists, a lot of whom have been showing they don't belong in civilised society with their behaviour. And most Russians wouldn't be able to afford to go anyway.

[Lahis]

A much more complex process.

This is Russia we are talking about. It is not that hard to end up on the government's kill list.

[Iphie]

This is Russia we are talking about. It is not that hard to end up on the government's kill list.

While that is true, getting that political refugee status is much more complex.

[Fuiking]

The visa thing might be more about tourists, a lot of whom have been showing they don't belong in civilised society with their behaviour. And most Russians wouldn't be able to afford to go anyway.

Can add dutch and british tourists to that reasoning too.

[Iphie]

Can add dutch and british tourists to that reasoning too.

To be fair I bet you could say that for most tourists. (and yes, I try to avoid fellow dutchies like the plague when on holiday.)

[Forogil]

While that is true, getting that political refugee status is much more complex.

And it's also a matter of timing - you would normally get on the Russian government's kill list inside Russia, and then try to leave Russia to seek asylum elsewhere.

I can see that such a plan back-fires, and I doubt that you can hope to get the treatment of Solzhenitzyn (or however you transcribe his name nowadays) and be expelled from Russia.

[Fuiking]

To be fair I bet you could say that for most tourists. (and yes, I try to avoid fellow dutchies like the plague when on holiday.)

Same hahaha.. I can see it straight away: beer in hand, no proper clothing, run around in speedos/swimming gear, super loud = many times a dutchie.

[Kallisto]

One of the reasons I am against this whole Visa ban is again it acts as if the Russian person who is essentially living somewhere in Russia that has done nothing to Ukraine is somehow personally as guilty as the person from Russia in Ukraine that's doing war crimes. When a person's crime begins and ends with that person. Secondly, the way the west won the cold war (well one of the reasons) was actually allowing people from the other side of the iron curtain actually see how the west truly is. Filled stores, free speech etc and those that saw it told their friends and it basically brought out the protests because people in the East demanded the standard of living the west had.

Thirdly it might drive people even more into Putin circles. Before everyone goes "look at the polling in Russia." those polls are Russian propaganda in of itself. Especially when they refuse to push out the refuses to answer group (aka the people that are anti Putin but don't want to be dead. Which you know doing everything it takes to be alive is the goal of every sane and rational lifeform)

[Gabriel]

One of the reasons I am against this whole Visa ban is again it acts as if the Russian person who is essentially living somewhere in Russia that has done nothing to Ukraine is somehow personally as guilty as the person from Russia in Ukraine that's doing war crimes. When a person's crime begins and ends with that person. Secondly, the way the west won the cold war (well one of the reasons) was actually allowing people from the other side of the iron curtain actually see how the west truly is. Filled stores, free speech etc and those that saw it told their friends and it basically brought out the protests because people in the East demanded the standard of living the west had.

Thirdly it might drive people even more into Putin circles. Before everyone goes "look at the polling in Russia." those polls are Russian propaganda in of itself. Especially when they refuse to push out the refuses to answer group (aka the people that are anti Putin but don't want to be dead. Which you know doing everything it takes to be alive is the goal of every sane and rational lifeform)

The russian people that don't overthrow Putin and his buddies are just as guilty for what is happening in Ukraine right now.

[Iphie]

One of the reasons I am against this whole Visa ban is again it acts as if the Russian person who is essentially living somewhere in Russia that has done nothing to Ukraine is somehow personally as guilty as the person from Russia in Ukraine that's doing war crimes. When a person's crime begins and ends with that person. Secondly, the way the west won the cold war (well one of the reasons) was actually allowing people from the other side of the iron curtain actually see how the west truly is. Filled stores, free speech etc and those that saw it told their friends and it basically brought out the protests because people in the East demanded the standard of living the west had.

Thirdly it might drive people even more into Putin circles. Before everyone goes "look at the polling in Russia." those polls are Russian propaganda in of itself. Especially when they refuse to push out the refuses to answer group (aka the people that are anti Putin but don't want to be dead. Which you know doing everything it takes to be alive is the goal of every sane and rational lifeform)

Wholeheartedly agree and those saying: "those who don't stand up against putin are just as guilty" have perhaps a skewed view on what can be done right now.

[Gabriel]

Wholeheartedly agree and those saying: "those who don't stand up against putin are just as guilty" have perhaps a skewed view on what can be done right now.

The least the common russian can do in times like these is to enjoy the hospitality of their own country that according to them is superior to others anyway.

[Kallisto]

The russian people that don't overthrow Putin and his buddies are just as guilty for what is happening in Ukraine right now.

So die or be a murderer in your eyes. What a psychopath.

[Gabriel]

So die or be a murderer in your eyes. What a psychopath.

That is a choise we all have. You can't force someone to be a murderer against their own will.

[Kallisto]

That is a choise we all have. You can't force someone to be a murderer against their own will.

Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.

[enigma77]

Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.

Nonsense. The people are responsible for their governments, whether they chose them or not. They have the power, if they're too afraid or too comfortable to do anything they are complicit all the same. Weakness, cowardice or stupidity are no excuse.

When your government does something awful and evil and you do not attempt to stop it, you and everyone in your family are guilty. Evil is enabled by good people who do nothing. That is why when American forces liberated concentration camps they forced the populations of nearby towns to see the corpses of the people their government murdered while they stood by and pretended to know nothing.

So yes, in no uncertain terms, all Russians are guilty. Except those who actually do something to stop their nefarious government.

[Gabriel]

Unless you hold the weapon you're not a murderer. Sorry but civilians are not responsible for a military or a government even in fucking democracies. In a Dictatorship they have even less responsibility.

Every human (and until genetics change Russians are human) are responsible for three people (unless they are a parent) They, themselves and there own bodies. If someone I know goes and kills someone I didn't do it I am not responsible.

If you think denying visas for tourists as a way to pressure the russian government is inhumane, you are just flat out stupid. Simple as.

[zealo]

Seeking asylum in the rest of Europe is always an option for Russians that are at serious risk of persecution inside of Russia, having straight up vacations in the rest of Europe is a luxury they do not deserve so long as their political apathy enables the Russian state to carry on like this.