Uncapped Valor is too powerful

[FelPlague]

No, uncapped valor has nothing to do with it.

Even in the previous raids with capped valor it did not matter. M+14 dropped 262 loot in season 3, and heroic raid dropped 265. Heroic raids (for items) have been invalidated ever since m+, which is spammable and has items that are upgradable to mythic level.

you could never upgrade items to mythic level.
the only way to get base mythic ilvl items 278 was from the weekly vault.
otherwise you were stuck at 272.

[Relapses]

I thought we raided for the enjoyment? If gear is easier and more obtainable to get outside of raids all the more better enjoyment FOR the raids right?

If you are correct it seems even more of a case of complaining simply because one can.

I don't think it's an entirely meritless concern but with the shortened nature of S4 I also don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as the OP is making it out to be.

[paxen]

No? OP is clearly concerned about how there's a widening gap between the part of his raid team that does M+ and the part that are pure raiders because M+ with valor is rewarding to the point of entirely out-stripping the rewards of similar level raiding because it isn't weekly capped the way raiding is.

It is also painfully clear from the very first sentence that OP is on the side that does M+ and has the better gear.

Yep, nailed it.

Arbitrary caps to try to control how much players play are poison. Everybody should be able to gear up as fast as they want or can. And when you've reached close to the maximum ilvl, there should still be a way to get further upgrades if you're committed enough.

Prior to this I would have said that I think weekly caps are good, because it's not good to incentivize unhealthy amounts of gameplay. But otoh, this has been some very fun weeks of M+, so I might change my opinion.

But either way, M+ is now uncapped while raids retain the weekly cap. Which is the problem. Somebody who likes to raid but not M+ (for whatever reason, most often the timer) can't just run all three fated raids multiple times in a week and get loot every time. But you can with M+.

[Relapses]

Somebody who likes to raid but not M+ (for whatever reason, most often the timer) can't just run all three fated raids multiple times in a week and get loot every time. But you can with M+.

It's important to consider that this same player, in this example (as of next week), would have access to a completely deterministic piece of whatever-difficulty raid gear you're participating in. That is a pretty cool incentive to raid, imo.

[paxen]

Now I'm wondering how it would work out if Valor stayed uncapped into DF, BUT old raids got updated like dungeons do and each week you could do every raid if you wanted to. Guilds would go insane if they tried to clear every raid every week, but having the option, if raiding is what you love, to pug old raids for fun and gear...


(oh right, people would hate having to refarm Old Warrior's Soul every patch)

[Relapses]

Now I'm wondering how it would work out if Valor stayed uncapped into DF, BUT old raids got updated like dungeons do and each week you could do every raid if you wanted to. Guilds would go insane if they tried to clear every raid every week, but having the option, if raiding is what you love, to pug old raids for fun and gear...


(oh right, people would hate having to refarm Old Warrior's Soul every patch)

There's actually a possibility that this Season is Blizzard's way to test the waters for supplemental outdated raid content becoming relevant again. Personally, I wouldn't mind a raid rotation but they'll need to be careful as a poorly tuned raid can really torpedo the community's (so far) reception of the system.

[Lucetia]

Maybe the question should be "Why are raids still not spammable?"

The question has always been and likely still in as illustrated here why have 4 raid modes? Have LFR, Normal then Mythic. Skew some of heroic into normal. It's just like Heroic dungeons. Why do we have 3 when people run either normal or mythic/mythic+. The only reason people touch Heroic there is to gain some gear and completely move out it same as heroic raiding.

[enigma77]

I thought we raided for the enjoyment? If gear is easier and more obtainable to get outside of raids all the more better enjoyment FOR the raids right?

If you are correct it seems even more of a case of complaining simply because one can.

Raidloggers are simply bad people. They whine, they cry, they complain and want the game to be all about them. They're the people who come online 5 minutes before the raid and immediately log out afterwards, yet expect everything in the game they barely play to cater exclusively to them. How dare Blizzard make content outside of raiding fun and worthwhile for everybody else!

[Celement]

The question has always been and likely still in as illustrated here why have 4 raid modes? Have LFR, Normal then Mythic. Skew some of heroic into normal. It's just like Heroic dungeons. Why do we have 3 when people run either normal or mythic/mythic+. The only reason people touch Heroic there is to gain some gear and completely move out it same as heroic raiding.

The answer is ego. The reason why normal was moved to leveling was because on the surface it feels good to "move up" to heroic. It feels bad to go backwards.

WoW suffers a lot from the cata days where they panicked and made everything guaranteed success for a while.

[Trumpcat]

Besides mythic, raiding has been useless for gearing for years. You get faster and higher loot through m+ and the weekly chest/vault.

At best there might be a bis trinket here and there that's amazing even at slightly lower ilevel such as the Sigil from Sepulcher.

Whenever I got HC raid loot it's either a downgrade or a temporary filler for a week at most until I replace it with M+ gear.

I think that raids not being part of the Valor system is a mistake. They should reward valor and the gear should be upgradeable.

[Celement]

Raidloggers are simply bad people. They whine, they cry, they complain and want the game to be all about them. They're the people who come online 5 minutes before the raid and immediately log out afterwards, yet expect everything in the game they barely play to cater exclusively to them. How dare Blizzard make content outside of raiding fun and worthwhile for everybody else!

When Summer warms the hanging fruit and burns the berry brown;
When straw is gold, and ear is white, and harvest comes to town;
When honey spills, and apple swells, though wind be in the West,
I'll linger here beneath the Sun, because my land is best!

[lordjust]

...

But either way, M+ is now uncapped while raids retain the weekly cap. Which is the problem. Somebody who likes to raid but not M+ (for whatever reason, most often the timer) can't just run all three fated raids multiple times in a week and get loot every time. But you can with M+.

But that problem existed in every season before it even with capped valor. +14 and higher drop 288 and you can spam those. Chest drops 3 items, so every 2 dungeons on avarage you get an item. Do 10 dungeons and you'll end up with 4-5 items, which is more than the 3 items you get on avarage from clearing a raid .

Last season in week 3 people in my guild who spammed m+ hardly needed anything from the heroic raid because they had 262 in every slot, some 278 from vault and maybe 1-2 items upgraded to 272. Most of our raiders were still rocking mostly hc sanctum gear so 239 and 246 + some pieces from sepulcher normal and heroic. Raiders were at something like 250-255 while m+ spammer were at 265 or higher.

So I don't think uncapped valor is the problem but getting so much more loot by spamming m+ is combined with the lower difficulty. Some dungeons like jungyard are very easy because of the bot buffs so you can 2 or even 3 chest those more often than not. Even with capped valor you'd be looking at fully decked out 288 for m+ and if you'd done hc last season maybe something around 273 avarage ilvl for clearing both raids on heroic.

The solution wouldn't be to decrease the loot from m+ but increase the loot from raids, which they're planing to do with dragonflight (1 piece of loot per 4 people instead of 1 for every 5).

[Polybius]

Besides mythic, raiding has been useless for gearing for years. You get faster and higher loot through m+ and the weekly chest/vault.

At best there might be a bis trinket here and there that's amazing even at slightly lower ilevel such as the Sigil from Sepulcher.

Whenever I got HC raid loot it's either a downgrade or a temporary filler for a week at most until I replace it with M+ gear.

I think that raids not being part of the Valor system is a mistake. They should reward valor and the gear should be upgradeable.

Basically. I don’t get why they’re afraid of players progressing, we have alts to dust off and add variety to gameplay.

[Celement]

But that problem existed in every season before it even with capped valor. +14 and higher drop 288 and you can spam those. Chest drops 3 items, so every 2 dungeons on avarage you get an item. Do 10 dungeons and you'll end up with 4-5 items, which is more than the 3 items you get on avarage from clearing a raid .

Last season in week 3 people in my guild who spammed m+ hardly needed anything from the heroic raid because they had 262 in every slot, some 278 from vault and maybe 1-2 items upgraded to 272. Most of our raiders were still rocking mostly hc sanctum gear so 239 and 246 + some pieces from sepulcher normal and heroic. Raiders were at something like 250-255 while m+ spammer were at 265 or higher.

So I don't think uncapped valor is the problem but getting so much more loot by spamming m+ is combined with the lower difficulty. Some dungeons like jungyard are very easy because of the bot buffs so you can 2 or even 3 chest those more often than not. Even with capped valor you'd be looking at fully decked out 288 for m+ and if you'd done hc last season maybe something around 273 avarage ilvl for clearing both raids on heroic.

The solution wouldn't be to decrease the loot from m+ but increase the loot from raids, which they're planing to do with dragonflight (1 piece of loot per 4 people instead of 1 for every 5).

I mean 15s are harder then most of heroic. It's the beer league there isn't a reason to nerf other content around it. It's designed to be smashed out in a night or two.

[Puri]

Yes it does matter because you're claiming it's irrelevant when a lot of people don't see relevant drops in even repeatable m+ and repeating the same m+ on the appropriate level is not as feasible as you make it out to be. So yes it matters that you're making it like the ilvl is 265 when it's on average 267. "waaaah 14 is repeatable" when you literally need someone to have a specific key if you need an item is a poor argument AND your ilvl story is wrong.

Not wanting to do something is a completely different argument, and what do you do when you want a specific item from the raid? You have one attempt per week. What do you do when the slot you want is not available on 272? What do you do when the three or four variations on secondary stats from dugeons are better than the one version dropping in the raid, making the handful itemlevel (from the upgradreable base item) moot. And -especially with the catalyst- you might not even need a specific key, but you have three or four keys to choose from where anything for that item slot drops.
Additionally in your assumption with the higher itemlevel from the later bosses you also assume that a heroic only raid group clears the instance right in the very first IDs.
But we are talking about m+ vs raid loot, that wasn't even my intention, but I the direct removal of the valor cap. After three or four IDs even with the valor cap the amount of actual upgrades from heroic raids is close to zero, even if you just do a handful m+ per week.

[Nzx]

Heroic raid is a piece of piss and if you require a scheduled and organised raid guild to complete it I feel sorry for you. Completing a substantial number of M+, to the point where you have every slot upgraded to 12/12 and have therefore also achieved 2k rating, is much harder than Heroic, and also requires a lot more time investment.

FWIW I have never once met a raider skilled enough to get CE in a tier that gives a shit about what gear other people have. The only people who complain about this kind of thing are the kind of people who "grind" AOTC in the last week of a tier and think that makes them "raiders".

[Nzx]

Why would you feel sorry for them, games are meant to be played not to prove ourselves to random strangers on the internet.

Because if you're incapable of clearing heroic raid you likely struggle with other basic things in life given the low level of knowledge and skill required to complete it, hence I feel sorry for you.

It's always such horseshit excuses from people like you - "i only play games for fun" but you also want the same gear as people who do more difficult content than you, with a constant and complete lack of willingness to accept that other people's version of fun is the content that you refuse to do. It's pathetic. "inaccessible to others unless they pay or are connected" yeah dude you're so right literally every person who raids only does it because they pay or because they have friends that carry them, they definitely didn't apply for a raid guild and trial for it based on their skill or spend a heap of time perfecting their character and rotation. It's everyone else's fault that you suck, not yours.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

OP you mad all 3 of my M+ pushing characters outgeared your 1 Mythic raiding character quicker?

[paxen]

OP you mad all 3 of my M+ pushing characters outgeared your 1 Mythic raiding character quicker?

Why do people have such low reading comprehension.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Why do people have such low reading comprehension.

Oh I read it, and I think the complaint is frail. And you started the thread. So are you mad about it?