What do you think pantheon of death and life are?

[Mace]

I may be a be outdated here:

For life we have the Wild Gods and Elune, Earth Mother, An'she, and Lo'sho.

For light we have the Naaru.

For Chaos, we have the old gods.

For void, we have the void lords.

Wild gods are linked to the natural cycle true, but they aren't all nature wielding beings - Rezan for example uses light magic all the time. The bat loa blood and shadow, Bwonsamdi clearly wields death magic, not life/nature - and is a loa, in fact, only gonk is specifically knonw for using nature magic. Cenarius, the greatest of the wild gods, is a master of nature magic - from his father Marlone's side, but also arcane from his mother Elune's side and we know druidism is actually the balance of nature and arcane concerned with the protection of the natural life cycle - which is a comibnation of nature and arcane.

Elune uses arcane, void and light magic - never once seen her or her followers utilise life magic.

Earth Mother is Azeroth - a titan in actual fact, but the veneration of the earth is linked to the Elementals and Therazanes realm- hence the Tauren's very shamanistic origins.

An'she - is a someone we know little off - however is his power solar (nature) or Solar (arcane) or Light magic? given that the priests and paladins of An'she seem to only wielld light magic. - I would say he isa light entity and associated with the sun because he produces light?? I don't know enough about him.


Naaru are beings of light, created by Elune - so if Elune is life and that is exclusively nature magic - it makes NO SENSE, she also is the balnace between light and void. So clearly the concepts are not that clearly divisible.

[Mace]

You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

There are 6 Cosmic Forces. 6 Forces that share a song of Creation, these 6 Forces EACH have a Zereth and a Cosmic Domain attached to them.

The First Ones created the Cosmic Blueprint for all things, and the workshops, the Laws, and Cosmic Lords of their influences (the influences being the Cosmic Forces, their balance, the cycles, etc).

There are implied/confirmed tbh Lords for each Cosmic Force, with Disorder being the only one that MAY not have one due to its nature, but that is a debatable topic considering they could straight up either make one or write one in by taking from the Chaos Gods from 40k.

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That's like the most simple explanation I can give out...

I think you are right, ti's not a genius concept at all, and not mennt to be pondered beyond the direct information given.

Perhaps the best I can say is that if you're a god you're not limited to any one cosmic force.. mortals aren't limited.. it doesn't mean you aren't tied to one.

So for exampleall of us alive, are part of the realm of life. But then Chornicles said that living people are actually light shards that evolved and have an expression in this phsyical universe.

Again perhaps I'm thinking too much, and it isn't meant to be thought about much.

[The Stormbringer]

Robots. It's all robots.

[Mace]

its always posible that the demon pantheon is dead,either by titans or sargeras or some other faction,i dont see how else sargeras could amass such a large following of demons if they had their own big strong leaders

How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?

[Progenitor Aquarius]

For Chaos, we have the Demons...

Tf do you mean???

Yeah, basically the Old Gods belong to a damn Zereth Umbra and Tumult is for chaos, which is basically nothing else but fel/twisting nether.

[Aucald]

I think that is a player mis conception. The Pantheon of death do not control or cast death magic. exclusively, they use all kinds of magic, some moreso than others - as you would expect near divine beings to - while death is a type of magic, the realm of death is not the death cosmic force embodiment. Domination magic is the name of death isn't it?

I'd say the misconception here is the notion that the named "Pantheon of Death" is set over Death magic specifically, as opposed to the mechanisms and systems of Death as a conceptual process. The Eternal Ones who comprise the pantheon of Death use all types of magic, as you said, including those whose origins can be found in the realms of Death (e.g. Necromancy and Domination). But obviously, they also use other forms of magic, including Nature, Arcane, Fire, Shadow, and a wide variety of others. Unlike the physical universe where such powers derive from Ley energy, or via Elemental connections, the magic in the Shadowlands is derived primarily from anima, the energy of souls.

I think players have confused the issue entirely, attributing realms to the cosmic forces/powers where they a re none, especially with death and life - because death in the realm of death is not referring to a cosmic power it is referring to the place where the dead exist - dead as in those who are permanently cut off from those that are living . those that are living are in the realm of life. the realm of life is not dominated by nature magic, it has all the cosmic forces and powers operating.

I'd largely agree. The various realms of creation were devised and separated according to their function, not any predominant magical force that completely constitutes a given realm. Death, for instance, in its form as the Shadowlands, is all about the judgment and assignment of souls to a specific afterlife scenario. There is an energy that accompanies these souls that is accessible and manipulable to the natural denizens of the Shadowlands such as the Kyrian, Venthyr, Necrolords, and others - said energy, called anima, can be bent to a variety of purposes and ultimate effects. Presumably, the other realms will have similar configurations, including natural denizens and a natural energy source that said denizens employ to create their own forms of magic.

[deenman]

How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?

if we go by the premise that every force has a pantheon

[Lochton]

Just like the Pantheon of Order, they are combined with various members. The Pantheon of Death was introduced in Shadowlands, as for life, we do not know, but once more, a combination of various members such as Elune.

Just because they are tagged under a certain category does not mean they are direct of such behavior/magic/connection.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Pantheon of disorder no longer exists since Sargeras’ imprisonment. Now they are just a bunch of chaotic and meaningless demons flying around Twisting Nether and that’s it.

[Aucald]

Pantheon of disorder no longer exists since Sargeras’ imprisonment. Now they are just a bunch of chaotic and meaningless demons flying around Twisting Nether and that’s it.

Unless there are greater entities of chaos that exist that neither the demons nor Sargeras were aware of.

[Hobbidaggy]

Unless there are greater entities of chaos that exist that neither the demons nor Sargeras were aware of.

Yeah weren’t there some super demons that even he was supposed to be a bit concerned about

[Feanoro]

For right now, they're 3D printed robots. Next week? Depends if the writers see something on TV they feel like ripping off.

[Hobbidaggy]

How can there be a "demon" pantheon - in'st demon just a collective name for the beings of the Nether - which is kinda like the opposing in between of the Great beyond?

I honestly don’t know why you are debating lore when you have shown multiple times you have not read or understood it and everyone is telling you the same thing because we have read it and understood it. If you are this confused please go and read up about the Zereths on wowpedia and the pantheon of death and the shadowlands and read how this is all explained in game etc with examples and reference texts. Don’t come here and argue what is known cannon for the IP saying “nah you have it wrong it’s not a pantheon of death” when it is actually that

[Mace]

I'd say the misconception here is the notion that the named "Pantheon of Death" is set over Death magic specifically, as opposed to the mechanisms and systems of Death as a conceptual process. The Eternal Ones who comprise the pantheon of Death use all types of magic, as you said, including those whose origins can be found in the realms of Death (e.g. Necromancy and Domination). But obviously, they also use other forms of magic, including Nature, Arcane, Fire, Shadow, and a wide variety of others. Unlike the physical universe where such powers derive from Ley energy, or via Elemental connections, the magic in the Shadowlands is derived primarily from anima, the energy of souls.

yes, this is what I have observed - a conflation of the magic force with either the mechanism/system or the very pantheon beings themselves. The titans - have never been pure arcane beings in fact we find the light a stronger presence. The notion that they sit as some sort of gods of arcane magic, or the Death pantheon are gods of death magic is what i think a lot of players think.


Despite it clearly not been the case in nearly EVERY example of Pantheon god like beings around.

I'd largely agree. The various realms of creation were devised and separated according to their function, not any predominant magical force that completely constitutes a given realm. Death, for instance, in its form as the Shadowlands, is all about the judgment and assignment of souls to a specific afterlife scenario. There is an energy that accompanies these souls that is accessible and manipulable to the natural denizens of the Shadowlands such as the Kyrian, Venthyr, Necrolords, and others - said energy, called anima, can be bent to a variety of purposes and ultimate effects. Presumably, the other realms will have similar configurations, including natural denizens and a natural energy source that said denizens employ to create their own forms of magic.

Other realms will indeed have their own unique operations, but I don't think they even quite exist like this. What exactly would a realm of order be? I can understand the concept of the realm of death - i.e. the after life, and the realm of life , i.e. life. The light even as realm - where it's just pure light and the void - where it is pure darkness. But you can't make such assignments to order, or elements or chaos - unless the realm is both the conceptual process and mechanisms and systems that is constitute or produce said thing.


Could it be that these relams are the reason we have all these cosmic forces and powers? That is not to say the function fo the realms is to produce these cosmic powers, but then maybe for something like Order that is what it is, while the realm of death has an entirely different prurpose as a place for the afterlife - and these are the functionalities of existence - we need life, death (for a cycle), light and drakness, order and disorder etc.

/shrug

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I honestly don’t know why you are debating lore when you have shown multiple times you have not read or understood it and everyone is telling you the same thing because we have read it and understood it. If you are this confused please go and read up about the Zereths on wowpedia and the pantheon of death and the shadowlands and read how this is all explained in game etc with examples and reference texts. Don’t come here and argue what is known cannon for the IP saying “nah you have it wrong it’s not a pantheon of death” when it is actually that

Ah, you're quick to assume I don't understand, but not enough to see what other things I am trying to point out. Four lines to tell me I'm wrong and what "everyone else" is telling me (by your reckoning), is right - about what? You don't state. Offer your insights? You give none. You quoted me just now. Pause to think what I'm trying to say? Demons aren't a realm, Chaos is cosmic force, demons aren't - demons are beings. how can you have a demon pantheon? - surely if you're going by the same standard you would have a Chaos pantheon and a chaos realm?

Try to see what someone is trying to say before jumping or creating a band wagon of they are wrong and start lecturing them about it.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

In the following, you can see the points of observation for our sun and moon phases. When the moon goes completely black, it passes through the Shadowlands. This was during the burning of the World Tree. Normally, mortal souls animate so they fuel the Shadowlands realms so life can be reborn one day. Only then can the life and death cycle be fulfilled and balance preserved.

[Moonrage]

I wouldn't really use the terms "pantheon" or "gods" for 3D printed robots with room temperature IQs.

This is what I hate about recent lore. Characters like the Winter Queen and Denathrius have lost their charm now we know they're basically androids. Really killed the whole fairy and vampire theme.

[Sialina]

Bad ideas.
Sadly I thnk the current team couldn't make cosmic stuff interesting.

[Nerovar]

This is what I hate about recent lore. Characters like the Winter Queen and Denathrius have lost their charm now we know they're basically androids. Really killed the whole fairy and vampire theme.

You think so? For me it only reeinforced the dull and robotic vibe I get from the newer lore anyways. Mysteries and Gods are so passé. This ain't your daddy's fantasy setting anymore.

[Aucald]

This is what I hate about recent lore. Characters like the Winter Queen and Denathrius have lost their charm now we know they're basically androids. Really killed the whole fairy and vampire theme.

I've never really understood the whole meme about the Eternal Ones, and other denizens of the Shadowlands, being "robots." What we find in Zereth Mortis with the various protoform vessels aren't robots, really; they're akin to shells or husks that are fueled by soul essences and anima and turn into actual beings made of flesh and blood - it's a magical transformation, not a mechanical one. The genesis of the Eternal Ones in Zereth Mortis isn't any more robotic than the Titans themselves, really - the only real difference is that the medium they gestate in is different, and in the case of the Eternal Ones is produced in a sort of foundry as opposed to being formed within planets and using their substance to eventually take shape.

The personalities and aesthetics of the Winter Queen and Sire Denathrius, for example, aren't a product of any kind of "programming" like you'd have with an android or a cybernetic creature - they're a product of the soul essence their vessels were imbued with. We see the same outcome when Pelagos' soul is transferred to the new Arbiter's vessel at the culmination of the Zereth Mortis story arc, the outcome isn't a robot, it's Pelagos' essence occupying a more powerful form, fortified and enhanced with additional anima and capability via the powerful vessel he was provided.

[Maljinwo]

They already ruined death
Dont ruin life too