So… Tinkers

[Teriz]

What is there to address? You're acting as if the Kul'tirans are an exclusively "big/thick race" and that Jaina (and her father) are the sole exception to the entire Kul'tiran population.

And her mother, and her brother, and pre-BFA Kul'tiran sailors and soldiers...

In other words, Blizzard completely changed what Kul'tirans looked like when they introduced playable Kul'tirans in BFA.

So you're saying that the entire expansion should happen solely inside a huge sprawling city? No outdoors at all?

Where did I say that? Suramar was a city and had plenty of outdoor portions.

As for a city, sure; Make a continent-sized city and divde it like any typical city would be divided;

Zone 1: The Harbor/Sea Port
Zone 2: The City center full of shops, public buildings, guilds, etc. faction hubs would be located there.
Zone 3: Uptown where the rich and powerful reside, probably divided between the princes
Zone 4: The Industrial area full of factories and mines
Zone 5: The slums and sewers where crime is rampant, and the poor struggle for survival.
Zone 6: Nature area/park full of wild natural and artificial creatures.

What's wrong with that?

Repeating the argument you tried to dodge:

I'm keeping this on topic. This isn't about Necromancers, and necromancers are irrelevant to this discussion.

[Rocksteady 87]

To be fair, if and when they do an expansion including Undermine, it's just going to be a small (or maybe not-so-small) portion of Kezan. Which in turn will just be one zone of an entire South Seas-oriented expansion. Undermine isn't going to be significantly more massive than, say, Suramar or Boralus. I mean, they already struggle to fill existing cities with playable content and leave ~75% of them as pure filler area.

So what I mean is, there's no point trying to rationalize Undermine as an entire zone. It'll be just like the two aforementioned zones most likely; a large chunk of a zone, but not the entire zone by any stretch of the imagination. Let alone an entire expansion of zones.

And I just have to laugh out loud at the guy who keeps rambling on about how there's no way Blizzard would ever expand or alter the lore/setting to create a new expansion. It's absolutely hilarious (and more than a bit delusional), especially given the one that's right around the fucking corner. What, with the extensive, well-established lore on Evokers and Dracthyr and all.

[Triceron]

Okay. I did. And I saw nothing that even alludes to "we're severing all ties to Undermine" anywhere in the leveling experience. Now what?

Now you play it again and again until you realize their connections to Undermine have been conpletely severed because they literally lost their homes and started a new life in a new place with a new faction. They weren't actively looking to sever those ties. Those ties were severed by the Cataclysm causing the destruction of Bilgewater Port. All connections to Kezan were lost once you start a new life in the Horde.

The message seemed to have been lost to you in your first playthrough. Try again.

[Rocksteady 87]

Now you play it again and again until you realize their connections to Undermine have been conpletely severed because they literally lost their homes and started a new life in a new place with a new faction.

The message seemed to have been lost to you in your first playthrough. Try again.

Nevermind that they didn't even come from Undermine in the first place. They came from Bilgewater Port, a completely different city on Kezan. But shh, we won't mention that to him.

[Triceron]

Nevermind that they didn't even come from Undermine in the first place. They came from Bilgewater Port, a completely different city on Kezan. But shh, we won't mention that to him.

Ah! You know, that's an excellent point.

I keep mixing up Undermine with Kezan

[Rocksteady 87]

Don't worry, in my short time here, it's become painfully obvious that inconsequential things like facts don't matter to that particular poster.

It's also strange how they're apparently the only person allowed to extrapolate information from existing data, come up with their own conclusions, and (even better) just pull drek straight out of their nether regions. But if you point out something as painfully obvious as "if Blizzard were to make an expansion involving Undermine, they'd probably make some changes," watch out. Apparently since they have an irrational hatred of Tinkers/goblins for whothefuckcares reasons, that makes it an impossible to even consider. Undermine can ONLY be inhabited by (Horde) goblins, it can ONLY be visited by (Horde) goblins, and nothing but (Horde) goblins can even conceive of its existence <pant pant pant> and thus it would be unfair or whatever ridiculousness they go on ranting about regarding it. It's... it's just bizarre.

Especially since, again... ::just gestures at the Dragonflight expansion, or literally any other expansion that's come before it::

One can only imagine how their brain must have exploded when the waters were pushed away from Nazjatar, and both goblins and gnomes were allowed to set foot there. Holy cow, amirite? ::leans in and whispers:: They're even from different factions!

[qwerty123456]

The adaptability of mortals, not mortals in of themselves. There is a difference between dragons and dragon men. The Dracthyr are not dragonmen like Maloriak for example.



I said the powers of the five dragon flights, not the power of chromatic dragons. That said, they do have abilities like Pyre, which combine the power of all five flights at once, and is called Prismatic magic.




And again, we got them. You have a magical winged reptile that breathes fire.

I can hold a picture up of a Dracthyr to any non-WoW player who doesn’t have some goofy hate boner, and they would say without hesitation that a dracthyr is a dragon.

Do you have any proof? No you don't wowpedia and the game says your wrong.

No you said they have the powers of the aspects which I then corrected you on. Funny how you previously used wing buffet as an example until I point out non drAgons use it. We already have dragons with the powers of all the flights and unsurprisingly they look like real dragons.


Funny how you had to resort to insulting me I haven't needed to since I keep proving you wrong. Dragons have looked somewhat differently historically but being bipedal isn't one of the traits you can saw out to call it a dragon. At best you could maybe call them wyverns. You don't even need wings to be a dragon so it's funny you keep trying to use that as a point of proof when half the cultures in the world have wingless dragons.

This is gonna be my last response I still don't have a computer and it takes forever to do these long posts and it's extremely easy to touch something and fully remove a post your writing. I've gulped this response 4 times now.

[Teriz]

Do you have any proof? No you don't wowpedia and the game says your wrong.

Created by Neltharion the Earth-Warder the essence of dragons was combined with the adaptability of the mortal races to create an elite soldier capable of switching from a draconic form to humanoid form.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...racthyr-evoker

Again, QUALITIES, not actually mixing a dragon with a mortal.

In addition Blizzard's artwork for Dragonmen;

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20180701204226

and their artwork for Dragons;



If you notice one resembles the Dracthyr, and one does not.

No you said they have the powers of the aspects which I then corrected you on. Funny how you previously used wing buffet as an example until I point out non drAgons use it. We already have dragons with the powers of all the flights and unsurprisingly they look like real dragons.

Yet they DO have the powers of the aspects, so what are you talking about?

Funny how you had to resort to insulting me I haven't needed to since I keep proving you wrong. Dragons have looked somewhat differently historically but being bipedal isn't one of the traits you can saw out to call it a dragon. At best you could maybe call them wyverns. You don't even need wings to be a dragon so it's funny you keep trying to use that as a point of proof when half the cultures in the world have wingless dragons.

Again, refer to the picture from the WoW artbook I posted above; Clearly bipedal dragons.

[RenTheCat]

They won't add tinkers until we get an expansion themed around gnomes or goblins and that's never going to happen because the community hates any non elven race.

[Teriz]

They won't add tinkers until we get an expansion themed around gnomes or goblins and that's never going to happen because the community hates any non elven race.

We had a Panda expansion. We’re about to get a dragon expansion. No reason we can’t get an Undermine/underground expansion.

[RenTheCat]

We had a Panda expansion. We’re about to get a dragon expansion. No reason we can’t get an Undermine/underground expansion.

You're right if it's themed around exploring what's below Azeroth, specially because it could give more Old God content which Blizzard seems to love, but they'd need to force a bit the whole tinkerer theme there and it would be a terrible business decision if it was locked to just gnome and goblin since they not very popular races, Monk already was kind of a failure even though it's available for everyone.

[Rocksteady 87]

You're right if it's themed around exploring what's below Azeroth, specially because it could give more Old God content which Blizzard seems to love, but they'd need to force a bit the whole tinkerer theme there and it would be a terrible business decision if it was locked to just gnome and goblin since they not very popular races, Monk already was kind of a failure even though it's available for everyone.

You mean like other tech-loving races like the Dwarves, Forsaken, Draenei, and Mag'har just off the top of my head?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

After all that debate and discussion on the forum, it never happened. Given how WoW tends to not release classes very often, have people given up hope of ever seeing the Tinker class in game yet?

I think Tinker might be one of the last "break glass to drum up excitement" ideas Blizzard still has in their bag, much like Demon Hunter was in Legion after the disaster that was WoD. So we might get tinker, but I'd take it as an ill omen as to how truly bad WoW is doing that Blizzard finally caved in and gave what their customers had been demanding for two decades. Given how the DH and the Evoker only got two specs, I have little hope that the Tinker will get three either, which means it will not cover a wide spectrum of tinker fantasies.

[DatToffer]

Combat support? No. Not in wow. Power infusion is controversial enough, a group buffer would invalidate logs entirely it's a terrible idea frankly.
Same argument for never getting a tinker applies for every missing class idea, frankly it's a stupid argument. Blizz still hasn't added a bard therefore players should give up on the idea and accept they will never get one.

Aren't Evokers kinda support already ? They got some fine buff abilities.
I thought they might be a test dummy for support classes, see how they fit and how they are received.

[Triceron]

I'm all for Support classes and changing some specs to fill support gameplay.

It doesn't even have to be a full new role, merely some form of hybrid DPS that trades pure DPS for utility.

[vizzle]

I don't know why people even suggest Bard. Music has never existed in WoW in any kind of combat, aside from war drums, which isn't really the bard archetype (and you can't build a whole class on war drums). Music isn't going to suddenly start having a magical effect thousands of years into an established universe, unless the writers decide to base the next expansion or the one after that on a music-centered alternate dimension.

[DatToffer]

Don’t really disagree with you, but I do hold out hope for a Bard in the future. We have had more musical instruments as toys recently. The whole automa/resistance to domination lore was based around language and sounds, which does plant some seeds for possible future lore if they wished to expand on it.

I did goto the rogue class hall for the first time recently and there was an actual bard npc in the corner playing a lute!

Music and sound has always been very prominent in Warcraft. However you’re right that I can’t think of any hero class from WC3 or otherwise that relies on music.

I think if there were any musical classes it would have to fill a niche, and tying it in with Domination magic (or anti domination magic), would probably be the route I would go. Either charming/mind controlling or making allies resistant to it/other forms of CC. There is enough space for a healer and a dps ranged and/or melee spec.

If the Bard class doesn't bring the L70ETC rocker fantasy, then count me out. What's even the point ?

[bloodmoth13]

Aren't Evokers kinda support already ? They got some fine buff abilities.
I thought they might be a test dummy for support classes, see how they fit and how they are received.

Eh, group buffs that affect everyone are ok, if they dont then its a problem

Honestly i dont think that buffer will ever be OR should ever be a full role in wow

blizz stated that there are 2 games, game1 where you play with people to beat encounters and game2 that the community made where you max dps
The problem is that its actually the same game and the only way to gauge your performance is by getting better at 'game 2'
Adding all these outside buffs just makes it harder for players to get quality data that you can use to improve your personal performance, imo that is ALL it accomplishes

I think it also creates some problematic synergy between certain specs, just look at the logs with demo locks with PI

[Triceron]

Eh, group buffs that affect everyone are ok, if they dont then its a problem

Honestly i dont think that buffer will ever be OR should ever be a full role in wow

blizz stated that there are 2 games, game1 where you play with people to beat encounters and game2 that the community made where you max dps
The problem is that its actually the same game and the only way to gauge your performance is by getting better at 'game 2'
Adding all these outside buffs just makes it harder for players to get quality data that you can use to improve your personal performance, imo that is ALL it accomplishes

I think it also creates some problematic synergy between certain specs, just look at the logs with demo locks with PI

To be honest, it can be creatively adapted to be a role without affecting other people's DPS in an impactful way.

Example-

- Introduce new global Raid Boss effects like Confusion, Infliction, Madness etc. These would be Debuffs that can only be interacted with by Support classes (much like how Healers are the only ones who Cleanse)
- Introduce new Support Spells that have synergy with the new Raid Boss effects. Song of Contemplation protects against Confusion and Madness, and can be played for its full duration for a lasting effect. Or Spell Reversal could consume the debuff and redistribute to a target enemy.
- Introduce 'Stamina' bars to bosses that can be drained by specific abilities available to Support classes. When drained, a Boss goes into a 'Vulnerable' state that makes them take more damage and also stuns them. You could skillfully apply Stamina drain to interrupt a big spell or delay the boss entering a new phase. The number of Supports you have affects hitting optimal Vulnerable breakpoints.
- When bosses are Vulnerable, Supports can spam certain spells to keep them in that state longer. This helps offset taking less DPS in favour of more Support - Your party does less overall DPS but has more Vulnerability

The inclusion of Support could be flexible to the party, and the balance of their 'lack of DPS' could be offset through the balance of Boss Vulnerability. The more Support classes you have, the faster the stamina drain and the more you can chain Vulnerability. And the ideal composition of DPS-to-Support would be defined by the meta, with at least 1 Support being required to tackle the new Raid Boss debuffs.

Encounters can be tuned to allow for longer boss fights and allow for safer battles of attrition. Less berserk timers, less 'beat down the boss before he kills you' phases, etc.

[Teriz]

I don't know why people even suggest Bard. Music has never existed in WoW in any kind of combat, aside from war drums, which isn't really the bard archetype (and you can't build a whole class on war drums). Music isn't going to suddenly start having a magical effect thousands of years into an established universe, unless the writers decide to base the next expansion or the one after that on a music-centered alternate dimension.

Well that's the other problem; There's no Bard hero in lore, there's nothing from HotS or WC3 with Bard-style abilities, and there's no expansion that works with the concept.

Tinkers have Gazlowe and Mekkatorque, have the Tinker hero in BOTH WC3 and HotS to pull original abilities, and you have an Undermine expansion.