Getting rid of manipulative mechanics

[WowIsDead64]

Such as time-gating that causes FOMO (dailies, weeklies, etc.) or RNG that causes dopamine addiction (random rares/treasures, random rewards). Why do we have such mechanics in P2P game? In P2P game devs should have enough money to produce content, instead of "stretching" it via psychological manipulations. Simple thing. How content patches in P2P game are supposed to work? They should have specific life span. Let's say 4-6 months. Their content should be completed within this life span. After that content obsoletes, as devs provide new one, where we start to do the same from scratch. For example new content provides new ilvl threshold to get to.

But instead. Devs try to provide potentially infinite content. Why? Why do we need potentially infinite content, if it should obsolete after 4-6 months?

I said it in the past, that we couldn't judge DF before seeing it's endgame content. Now we start to see it. And... I don't see any radical improvements, promised by devs. Same WQs. As always. May be I miss something? What is DF's content and reward structure? Will it improve or will it be the same crap again?

P.S. This idea came to my mind after playing ZM for some time. First of all it's problem with RNG spawns. Yeah, it causes dopamine addiction with time. All that skulls, stars and chests on a map have the same effect, as yellow dots when you collect profession materials. They trigger you and you rush to them as quick as possible. It's ok, when I do some other content and rare spawns near me. But it's bad, when I just need extra anima or % for weekly quest. And I can't even sit AFK and watch YouTube, cuz rares aren't announced.

Another problem - I realized, that I couldn't even get 252 BIS gear (one of major "goals" in ZM), because not all gear was affected by cyphers, so I had to rely on RNG ilvl upgrades, that could take infinite amount of time to drop.

Why so bad game design is used is paid game, where content is released regularly? RPGs are games about compulsive behavior. We do exactly the same things again, again and again. Kill the same mobs, complete the same quests. Whole logic of such games - is that we get DIFFERENT rewards for them. Devs just create new set of gear with new unique design and new ilvl - and we just start chasing it. This should happen every 4-6 months. Why such content should be stretched to make it potentially infinite? Are devs lazy? Or greedy?

[crusadernero]

Such as time-gating that causes FOMO (dailies, weeklies, etc.) or RNG that causes dopamine addiction (random rares/treasures, random rewards). Why do we have such mechanics in P2P game? In P2P game devs should have enough money to produce content, instead of "stretching" it via psychological manipulations. Simple thing. How content patches in P2P game are supposed to work? They should have specific life span. Let's say 4-6 months. Their content should be completed within this life span. After that content obsoletes, as devs provide new one, where we start to do the same from scratch. For example new content provides new ilvl threshold to get to.

But instead. Devs try to provide potentially infinite content. Why? Why do we need potentially infinite content, if it should obsolete after 4-6 months?

I said it in the past, that we couldn't judge DF before seeing it's endgame content. Now we start to see it. And... I don't see any radical improvements, promised by devs. Same WQs. As always. May be I miss something? What is DF's content and reward structure? Will it improve or will it be the same crap again?

Well, there wont be player power to obtain behind boring grinds(AP in legion & BfA, Azerite gear, legendaries soul ash farm in SL) to begin with. Thats a good thing. That means whatever endgame content there is, its more or less optional. If you want to do m+, do m+. No need for much else. Level up, get gear, see your character become stronger. End of. As it should be.

Will players that dedicate ALOT of hours to this game get mad? Probably. Most players? Most likely not.

When it comes to dailies, weeklies etc; I dont really mind them. Problem in SL was that too many of them took to long. But as long as they arent forced upon you in order to progress your character(player power), I dont really see the issue with them.

I dont care for pet battles, mythic raiding(or most raiding tbh) and other avenues in wow. So I just dont do them, I do other activities. If WQs, dailies & weeklies is just a side acitivty, you can easily ignore them.

[Stickiler]

Such as time-gating that causes FOMO (dailies, weeklies, etc.) or RNG that causes dopamine addiction (random rares/treasures, random rewards). Why do we have such mechanics in P2P game? In P2P game devs should have enough money to produce content, instead of "stretching" it via psychological manipulations. Simple thing. How content patches in P2P game are supposed to work? They should have specific life span. Let's say 4-6 months. Their content should be completed within this life span. After that content obsoletes, as devs provide new one, where we start to do the same from scratch. For example new content provides new ilvl threshold to get to.

But instead. Devs try to provide potentially infinite content. Why? Why do we need potentially infinite content, if it should obsolete after 4-6 months?

I said it in the past, that we couldn't judge DF before seeing it's endgame content. Now we start to see it. And... I don't see any radical improvements, promised by devs. Same WQs. As always. May be I miss something? What is DF's content and reward structure? Will it improve or will it be the same crap again?

Without dailies and weeklies, the "4-6 months" of content will be blown through in less than 2 weeks, regardless of how much content Blizzard puts out, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth will begin, with people complaining that they're "forced to grind 24/7 just to compete", and we've seen this pattern repeated constantly over WoW's lifespan.

RNG, especially around random rewards, is a constant of RPGs, especially around gear and material drops.

[Nzx]

?

Every single time you post it's the same pointless, incorrect dribble. If they did what you're asking them to do here, you'd complain that you're "forced" to play the game for 4-6 months straight to unlock everything when you just want to play for 2 minutes a day for a week and get handed everything. Completely insufferable horseshit from someone who desperately wants WoW to be a game that it isn't, never was, and never intended to be.

[Accendor]

Such as time-gating that causes FOMO (dailies, weeklies, etc.) or RNG that causes dopamine addiction (random rares/treasures, random rewards). Why do we have such mechanics in P2P game? In P2P game devs should have enough money to produce content, instead of "stretching" it via psychological manipulations. Simple thing. How content patches in P2P game are supposed to work? They should have specific life span. Let's say 4-6 months. Their content should be completed within this life span. After that content obsoletes, as devs provide new one, where we start to do the same from scratch. For example new content provides new ilvl threshold to get to.

But instead. Devs try to provide potentially infinite content. Why? Why do we need potentially infinite content, if it should obsolete after 4-6 months?

I said it in the past, that we couldn't judge DF before seeing it's endgame content. Now we start to see it. And... I don't see any radical improvements, promised by devs. Same WQs. As always. May be I miss something? What is DF's content and reward structure? Will it improve or will it be the same crap again?

P.S. This idea came to my mind after playing ZM for some time. First of all it's problem with RNG spawns. Yeah, it causes dopamine addiction with time. All that skulls, stars and chests on a map have the same effect, as yellow dots when you collect profession materials. They trigger you and you rush to them as quick as possible. It's ok, when I do some other content and rare spawns near me. But it's bad, when I just need extra anima or % for weekly quest. And I can't even sit AFK and watch YouTube, cuz rares aren't announced.

Another problem - I realized, that I couldn't even get 252 BIS gear (one of major "goals" in ZM), because not all gear was affected by cyphers, so I had to rely on RNG ilvl upgrades, that could take infinite amount of time to drop.

Why so bad game design is used is paid game, where content is released regularly? RPGs are games about compulsive behavior. We do exactly the same things again, again and again. Kill the same mobs, complete the same quests. Whole logic of such games - is that we get DIFFERENT rewards for them. Devs just create new set of gear with new unique design and new ilvl - and we just start chasing it. This should happen every 4-6 months. Why such content should be stretched to make it potentially infinite? Are devs lazy? Or greedy?

If you have FOMO you should get medical attention.

[Revamp Man]

We don't have the actual reward structure in the game yet but ok go off queen

From what I've seen I'll happily be able to skip a day whenever I want or not play my main without feeling punished but let's give it a day so you can copy more reddit talking points.

[Snufflupagus]

Holy smokes this guy just never stops with his drivel.

You’re playing the wrong game, mate. WoW has never been and has never suggested it wants to be what you want it to be. Make your own game if you’re so sure you’ve got all the answers.

[WowIsDead64]

If you have FOMO you should get medical attention.

There is no such thing, as "normal person". Everybody, except may be astronauts, has some deviations. Another question - do companies exploit them or not?

I don't try to say that time gating and RNG are absolutely bad. It's bad, when they're used to manipulate players. For example player doesn't want to play today. May he will play 2x more tomorrow to compensate, but today he doesn't want to play. But some super-rare trinket is granted for WQ today. And nobody knows, when it will pop again. May be never. So, he has to do this WQ on all his characters today. This just shouldn't happen.

Ultimate solution of time-gating problem - is account-wide progress. It's perfect compromise between time-gating, that causes FOMO, and catching-up, that allows player to get rewards without earning them. RNG makes things even worse. Reward sources should be pre-determined. Player should know in advance, if he would get some reward or not. Because if he wouldn't - he would skip this attempt and do something else instead. And when RNG is involved - player has to spam everything, no matter if he gets rewards or not.

Example - ZM trinkets. They aren't affected by cyphers. So, WQ says 236. While I have the same one, that is 242. And I need 252. Should I do this WQ or not? Because may be this WQ has chance to drop higher ilvl. So. May be reward should be RNG. But it should be shown on a map, what ilvl it would have.

[Puri]

And what would be the point of playing then with no random element.
After two weeks farming you have every slot on 252. And then? You wait for the next patch, where you do the same again, and have every slot on 272 after two weeks?

Wow always was about randomness of drops. You complain about some minor itemlevel improvements, but actually the item you want might not even drop for you ever. Thats' what wow (and most RPGs) is about. If you don't like that, then perhaps the game is simply not for you?

[Snufflupagus]

I don't try to say that time gating and RNG are absolutely bad. It's bad, when they're used to manipulate players. For example player doesn't want to play today. May he will play 2x more tomorrow to compensate, but today he doesn't want to play. But some super-rare trinket is granted for WQ today. And nobody knows, when it will pop again. May be never. So, he has to do this WQ on all his characters today. This just shouldn't happen.

Why is it the game’s job to manage this guy’s priorities? This is a personal problem.

[Aleksej89]

you have a better chance of getting casinos to remove manipulative mechanics than to get modern games to do it.

personally i play games because of "good gameplay + good social interactions".

time gating and daily grinds are the exact opposite of both.

[WowIsDead64]

Why is it the game’s job to manage this guy’s priorities? This is a personal problem.

This is exact problem, I talk about. RNG and time gating don't allow me to manage my priorities properly. I want to skip unimportant things, but can't.

[Hellobolis]

Why do we have such mechanics in P2P game?

to keep you paying of course.

and also cause there is a thin line between many of the things being a core RPG/gameplay element and it being manipulative.

some degree of RNG and grinding is simply part of the experience, and has existed for decades long before modern monetization methods or even the internet existed.


wows really not that infinite or manipulative though, yeah sure they try to pry at least 2 months out of the super casuals, but your average player is done with a patch content after 1-3 months and many do in fact quit at that point. the vast majority of players also reaches like 90% of their gear potential in that time, anyone who keeps playing beyond that does it cause they actually enjoy what they are doing.

now could they just remove the 2-3 weeks it takes to get revered reputation to get that 1 important item when a new patch comes and just give it to you after you do the story quests? sure. but you can't tell me with a straight face that's what you want either, and we all know we'd all rip through the story content in a few days no matter how much they put in.

wow expansions being nothing new with a slight twist is also nothing new, real innovations only happen every 5 years orso. in that case DF is a bit unique though as it lacks the twist, which you'd think would mean they had to deliver on the basics, but in reality people will probably just be glad they don't have to deal with another gimmick mechanic this time around, which ironically makes the game (feel) even less manipulative.

[Snufflupagus]

This is exact problem, I talk about. RNG and time gating don't allow me to manage my priorities properly. I want to skip unimportant things, but can't.

You literally can. Just skip it.

WoW is a game. You don’t need anything in it. If you feel unable to skip things in WoW, there’s a problem with you, not with WoW. You should seek help.

[Hellobolis]

This is exact problem, I talk about. RNG and time gating don't allow me to manage my priorities properly. I want to skip unimportant things, but can't.

just play behind the curve a bit. blizz always makes things easier down the road. the FOMO isn't real. we always had a few slackers/people with little time in the guild with artefact/azerite power and stuff like that and it never really affected out progress all that much.


oh and if you want to kill rares in ZM or stuff like that, just use the groupfinder. when the content is new/relevant there are always groups for it so you don't have to do things like rush to them or stay in the area. just go to rare spot, type rare name in group finder and you won't have to wait long if at all. and get an addon like tomcats, handynotes or raretracker if you want announcements for rares much better than the default UI.

[melzas]

I like it the way it is now and what you suggest OP sounds like horrible and boring game design.

[Tentim]

They should remove most of it. The problem comes with wow being a broken miss mesh of communities that utterly hate and despise one another.

Conduits levels, renowned, ap, etc are all pointless systems but jealous people will support then to " stick it to the raiders".

Dragon flight is their first try in a long time of getting away from it. Though it's more how rushed out the expansion is then desire to change I suspect.

[WowIsDead64]

just play behind the curve a bit. blizz always makes things easier down the road. the FOMO isn't real. we always had a few slackers/people with little time in the guild with artefact/azerite power and stuff like that and it never really affected out progress all that much.


oh and if you want to kill rares in ZM or stuff like that, just use the groupfinder. when the content is new/relevant there are always groups for it so you don't have to do things like rush to them or stay in the area. just go to rare spot, type rare name in group finder and you won't have to wait long if at all. and get an addon like tomcats, handynotes or raretracker if you want announcements for rares much better than the default UI.

I'm casual player, not hardcore. I don't play competitive content, so I don't care about falling behind other players. I mostly care about being able to complete content within reasonable time frame and being overwhelmed by amount of parallel tasks, I need to complete in order to stay on schedule. Current content has bad structure, so I have problems with managing amount of tasks. Too few content on one character, too much content on alts. Content isn't flexible. It's black or white. All or nothing. Skipping too many things leaves me withing content to do. I try to find that minimum, that would be optimal for me, but it's very difficult. DF's content structure should be improved. Otherwise this xpack will most likely fail, as SL did.

[Loveliest]

I'm casual player, not hardcore. I don't play competitive content, so I don't care about falling behind other players. I mostly care about being able to complete content within reasonable time frame and being overwhelmed by amount of parallel tasks, I need to complete in order to stay on schedule. Current content has bad structure, so I have problems with managing amount of tasks. Too few content on one character, too much content on alts. Content isn't flexible. It's black or white. All or nothing. Skipping too many things leaves me withing content to do. I try to find that minimum, that would be optimal for me, but it's very difficult. DF's content structure should be improved. Otherwise this xpack will most likely fail, as SL did.

Can you explain what you do, how much it takes and how much time you are willing to invest in average per day?

The game has a lot to offer, for different interests. Some may find that what interests them is too little and require more stuff for them. You (and probably others like you) feel overwhelmed with the tasks, though not sure which.

I for example feel a little overwhelmed at times too. For example, at the start of a tier / season when I have to do a lot of M+. But I noticed only things that I feel I HAVE to do stress me. I have 33k+ achis, almost 700 mounts, almost 2000 max level pets, so on and so forth. So I like doing all sorts of stuff, it's just that some of them relax me or I find fun while others stress me (even though I enjoy them) just because they are required for me from my pov.

[cparle87]

I'm casual player, not hardcore. I don't play competitive content, so I don't care about falling behind other players. I mostly care about being able to complete content within reasonable time frame and being overwhelmed by amount of parallel tasks, I need to complete in order to stay on schedule. Current content has bad structure, so I have problems with managing amount of tasks. Too few content on one character, too much content on alts. Content isn't flexible. It's black or white. All or nothing. Skipping too many things leaves me withing content to do. I try to find that minimum, that would be optimal for me, but it's very difficult. DF's content structure should be improved. Otherwise this xpack will most likely fail, as SL did.

Find the sweet spot of how many alts you run? A former guildie of mine hates his life because he's addicted to trying to keep 12 alts (he hates warriors) up to date. Every day he would rant about how everything should be made account wide or how he's being "forced" to do the same thing multiple times, or some variation of those two statements. And of course he'll respond to any criticism in his playstyle that if Blizzard isn't catering to every playstyle (aka his) then the company is a failure and since it doesn't it must be a failure cause why else would the game be obviously dying, amirite?

- - - Updated - - -

Can you explain what you do, how much it takes and how much time you are willing to invest in average per day?

The game has a lot to offer, for different interests. Some may find that what interests them is too little and require more stuff for them. You (and probably others like you) feel overwhelmed with the tasks, though not sure which.

I for example feel a little overwhelmed at times too. For example, at the start of a tier / season when I have to do a lot of M+. But I noticed only things that I feel I HAVE to do stress me. I have 33k+ achis, almost 700 mounts, almost 2000 max level pets, so on and so forth. So I like doing all sorts of stuff, it's just that some of them relax me or I find fun while others stress me (even though I enjoy them) just because they are required for me from my pov.

I'm kind of the same way. I like most kinds of content, except pvp. Even in the so-called "raid or die nothing to do except sit in garrison" days I had plenty to do. Course if you say that to anyone they'll ask you to list the content them dismiss anything they don't like as "not content" and tell you you're wrong.