1. #53581
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    And yet, with ACT, people in FF obsess about DPS (even when they already are way past the encounter's requirements) just as much as the people in WoW.

    Which is completely discouraged by the devs. This is not how the game was intended but how some players act
    Last edited by Maljinwo; 2022-08-19 at 08:35 PM.
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  2. #53582
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Apart from, I think it was Warlords of Draenor, I never felt talents to be impactful enough to really actually matter. Some spell does 10 - 15% bigger numbers? I don't care unless it changes the way I play the class.

    In WoD, as an SPriest, I could talent between 3 distinct playstyles. It was an ... interesting time, to say the least.
    Naturally it all ended up in "subspec A is best on boss A" and "subspec B clearly obliterates every other on boss B" so for serious raid progression... well fun was out of the window unless you want your raid members to look at you in a funny way and be clearly behind your Co-Shadow who didn't mind the swap.
    Yeah the "choice" was there: the choice to gimp myself on purpose. Weee... awesome... so much fun....
    Well, yeah.. talents should change up your gamestyle and not just increase a random skill for no reason. If you'd press the same rotation the talent system is a failure and just enhancing ability damage for specific bosses.

    but

    Why does WoW matter?
    FFXIV isn't WoW.
    FFXIV isn't as hard as WoW, you can progress with suboptimal performance just fine. You only raid with 7 other people and not 20. It's easier to find people who think the same and content is easy enough to clear even if you "gimp yourself".

    And the choice not to take the talent to gimp yourself is a choice in the end.
    If you look at it from the other side, you chose the better option and if the talents weren't there and the devs decided you are shit on A and good on B you would have to live with being shit at A instead of being at your best on both.
    "yay so much fun - I'm shit at something"
    You'd rather that they don't invite you because you picked the wrong class for the wrong boss?
    We are arguing in circles. I don't understand where you are trying to move with this argument?

    If you are bothered by other people "looking at you in a funny way" you are probably playing with the wrong people.
    I played SV hunter for quite a long time now. No one cared in my circle. (when it was "bad")
    I wouldn't care if someone played Bard or whatever is currently the worst performing job right now either.
    If someone would bash you for your talent choices in FFXIV, they'd get banned, wouldn't they?
    Isn't that how FFXIV works? No discrimination against anyone or anything?

    Do you play destiny?
    Do you see people giving a shit about spec, class, weapon choice there? If yes, when and where? Day1 raids? Rated PvP?
    99% of the playerbase probably doesn't give a shit what weapon you use or what spec you play or what class you play, and the differences are quite huge in that game when it comes to burst/DPS.



    Imagine this: if WAR is a different spec or talent choice of PLD, would you look at one of them funny?
    Or BLM - SMN or something?
    After all, people at a highlevel (where it "matters") do probably have all or at least some or most jobs at max level and even geared anyway. It's no different from swapping a talent, yet people don't do it, because they like playing with a specific set of skills more right now. (Because it's easier, or looks prettier, performs better, or because whatever reason)

    It really just sounds people are against it out of spite. And that doesn't mean that I want talents to be there or whatever or even say that people should want it, but the reasoning is based on unreasonable trauma and mistakes they themselves made in the past. I just don't see why someone could be AGAINST it without actually seeing it how it would turn out... out of fear and nothing else.
    As if they are saying "Even though the best and worst performance possible in the game is just a click away, I don't give a shit about what is best and what isn't right now, IF TALENTS COME BACK HOWEVER, I WILL START DOING IT AGAIN!"... just why?
    "Healers rather overheal 40000% HP instead of DPSing and go AFK between casts, but when players see that I have the wrong talents.. oh boy" - that kinda thing.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-08-19 at 11:14 PM.

  3. #53583
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Well, yeah.. talents should change up your gamestyle and not just increase a random skill for no reason. If you'd press the same rotation the talent system is a failure and just enhancing ability damage for specific bosses.

    but

    Why does WoW matter?
    FFXIV isn't WoW.
    FFXIV isn't as hard as WoW, you can progress with suboptimal performance just fine. You only raid with 7 other people and not 20. It's easier to find people who think the same and content is easy enough to clear even if you "gimp yourself".

    And the choice not to take the talent to gimp yourself is a choice in the end.
    If you look at it from the other side, you chose the better option and if the talents weren't there and the devs decided you are shit on A and good on B you would have to live with being shit at A instead of being at your best on both.
    "yay so much fun - I'm shit at something"
    You'd rather that they don't invite you because you picked the wrong class for the wrong boss?
    We are arguing in circles. I don't understand where you are trying to move with this argument?

    If you are bothered by other people "looking at you in a funny way" you are probably playing with the wrong people.
    I played SV hunter for quite a long time now. No one cared in my circle. (when it was "bad")
    I wouldn't care if someone played Bard or whatever is currently the worst performing job right now either.
    If someone would bash you for your talent choices in FFXIV, they'd get banned, wouldn't they?
    Isn't that how FFXIV works? No discrimination against anyone or anything?

    Do you play destiny?
    Do you see people giving a shit about spec, class, weapon choice there? If yes, when and where? Day1 raids? Rated PvP?
    99% of the playerbase probably doesn't give a shit what weapon you use or what spec you play or what class you play, and the differences are quite huge in that game when it comes to burst/DPS.



    Imagine this: if WAR is a different spec or talent choice of PLD, would you look at one of them funny?
    Or BLM - SMN or something?
    After all, people at a highlevel (where it "matters") do probably have all or at least some or most jobs at max level and even geared anyway. It's no different from swapping a talent, yet people don't do it, because they like playing with a specific set of skills more right now. (Because it's easier, or looks prettier, performs better, or because whatever reason)

    It really just sounds people are against it out of spite. And that doesn't mean that I want talents to be there or whatever or even say that people should want it, but the reasoning is based on unreasonable trauma and mistakes they themselves made in the past. I just don't see why someone could be AGAINST it without actually seeing it how it would turn out... out of fear and nothing else.
    As if they are saying "Even though the best and worst performance possible in the game is just a click away, I don't give a shit about what is best and what isn't right now, IF TALENTS COME BACK HOWEVER, I WILL START DOING IT AGAIN!"... just why?
    "Healers rather overheal 40000% HP instead of DPSing and go AFK between casts, but when players see that I have the wrong talents.. oh boy" - that kinda thing.
    Except here's the thing: even if in 14 if my personal favorite class is considered to be the worse, it's just a simple matter of me switching to one of the other 19 jobs in the game that I might like playing to get into those areas. And with the way that gear and drops from some bosses are designed, especially for higher end content, I can get a container from the boss that I can then open up on the class that's my favorite and gear up that class instead. But even keeping that in mind, the way that 14 is designed and balanced makes it so that it's very rare for you to ever run into the circumstance of 'Lol, yeah, no Bards, they're crap'.

    World of Warcraft, by it's very design, doesn't have that flexibility. I can't just take my Hunter and instantly turn her into a Shaman for an expansion because Shamans are super duper strong and no one wants a Hunter. I'm stuck with that character or forced to make a new one. And as much as you say 'Well, no body cares if you play a weaker class', I'm sorry, but that's not how it's been and I strongly doubt that's how it is now.

    Human, by our nature, want to go the easiest, least restrictive, and simplest path. Doesn't matter if it's in real life or a video game, it's just kinda how we're wired. If there's something a single class (Or talent, in this case) that's going to make you hitting that 20+ Mythic Dungeon just that much easier, would you even acknowledge the person who decided to not play that class or take that talent? My guess would be 'probably not'. People are set on what's 'optimal' no matter what the game.

    The reason why WoW even came up, though, was because our resident hater of Video games and FF14 in particular, Val, was going on about there being no flexibility in 14. Granyala was bringing up the counter point of that none of that 'flexibility' in talent choice or build mattered for challenging, end game content because people were going to expect you to have what was best regardless of it being fun or not to you personally.

  4. #53584
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Well, yeah.. talents should change up your gamestyle and not just increase a random skill for no reason. If you'd press the same rotation the talent system is a failure and just enhancing ability damage for specific bosses.

    but

    Why does WoW matter?
    FFXIV isn't WoW.
    Because we are talking a THEORETICAL design here, that some poster brought up.
    I am sorry that my only experience with such a system stems from WoW, hence I report from said experience and argue why I don't want such a system in XIV.

    Apart from arbitrarily locking some skills into the talent trees, WoW's trees never did much beyond "möp, you get xx% more damage or -XY% cooldown".
    They could just a easily do the job thing XIV does and get rid of the talents altogether. EG: Fury WAR being it's own job next to Prot WAR. It wouldn't make a lick of difference as far as max level play is concerned.

    This is all just about the leveling experience with some people obsessing about "having to spend a point every X levels". Meh, don't care.
    Ofc WoW needs subspecs, else, a leveled character would be locked into being e.g.: Prot WAR forever.
    Thank Yoshi-P, XIV does not have this kind of limitation. I love that one character can be every job there is.

    As if they are saying "Even though the best and worst performance possible in the game is just a click away, I don't give a shit about what is best and what isn't right now, IF TALENTS COME BACK HOWEVER, I WILL START DOING IT AGAIN!"... just why?
    I already explained that to you, so stop acting dense. <_<

    Example numbers:
    Right now: Job A vs Job B = 5% difference in output.
    With choose-able talents: Job A vs Job B = 5 - 15% difference in output, depending on talents chosen by the player.

    Naturally, the community will not accept the -15% variant and ask the player to stick to the -5% talent choices. Oftentimes, players won't even have to ask. People will see the crappy performance of "their choice" and stick to the best themselves, if they are serious about doing the challenging stuff.
    Thus rendering the entire system moot and wasted DEV time that could have been spent on stuff that makes the game better.

    And no: not all talent combinations can be balanced equally. That is a pipe dream and you know it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    World of Warcraft, by it's very design, doesn't have that flexibility. I can't just take my Hunter and instantly turn her into a Shaman for an expansion because Shamans are super duper strong and no one wants a Hunter. I'm stuck with that character or forced to make a new one. And as much as you say 'Well, no body cares if you play a weaker class', I'm sorry, but that's not how it's been and I strongly doubt that's how it is now.
    To be completely fair: the scenario in which weaker classes could not participate in content have been fairly rare.

    Some classes / specs had huge problems finding 5 man groups back in TBC and also mages were not very well liked in the Sunwell raid.
    Ever since then, Blizzard strived to do the "bring the player, not the class" design and it got a lot better.
    Yeah, OP classes still had an easier time finding a spot but I don't remember any recent "fuck hunters, we don't want them". (bleeding edge undergeared world firsts with freaky cheese-raid setup don't count here)

    I'm with @KrayZ33, that is VERY unlikely to ever happen in XIV, given the homogenization already in the game.

    To stick to your example:
    A hunter might be asked to spec BM if MM / Survival sucks hard, though. On top of that, the raid might ask the player to spec his BM in a very specific way to get the maximum out of the talent tree.
    Which is my actual point: the talents are often irrelevant and largely ignored when it comes to endgame places where performance matters. They are all about the leveling experience. Heck I can remember expansions where I didn't touch the damn things for nearly 2 friggin' years until the leveling slog continued.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2022-08-20 at 06:53 AM.

  5. #53585
    Full Patchnotes are up. Gotta say, i love how the ff14 subreddit melts down over the MCH "nerfs" when they're just adjustements for better burst/buff windows. Although it is odd that they straight up nerfed the Rook when they adjusted/slightly buffed Queen.

  6. #53586
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    Full Patchnotes are up. Gotta say, i love how the ff14 subreddit melts down over the MCH "nerfs" when they're just adjustements for better burst/buff windows. Although it is odd that they straight up nerfed the Rook when they adjusted/slightly buffed Queen.
    This is why they don't release balance changes until right before the patch drops. So the usual freakout is only for a few hours.

  7. #53587
    I think the reason talents work in other games is because of the 'unknown' factor. In D&D or most single player games (without using a guide), you don't know what your character will be encountering, so you pick what feel is best or most fitting for your character. If you don't have the optimal config it's not the end of the world usually.

    In an MMO, you face the same encounters over and over and over, and can pick and choose what encounters you're doing. Being the AOE guy doesn't matter if you're doing...just about anything other than Dungeons, since Trial/Raid bosses rarely have many adds or trash.

    Easy swapping of talents is likewise weird. Why even have a ST or AOE spec when you could just have a properly tuned AOE and ST rotation?

  8. #53588
    https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/sta...07055401385986

    Stores in japan are closing and sending staff home for 6.2. Something japan has only done for a few things like a new Dragon Quest release before. I guess its still increasing in popularity over there.

  9. #53589
    Old God -aiko-'s Avatar
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    I beat the MSQ! Feeling many things. Need to process thoughts. Send tissues.

  10. #53590
    Man that trial was great but i imagine the super casual players are in for Titania flashbacks.

  11. #53591
    One can only dream when the day will come and Viera hairstyles covering ear features will be released. So far Emperor's Hat mod does the trick.

    On that note, I like this patch a lot, just need to stick to my schedule and avoid any distractions since about half things I'd like to accomplish never gets done, and then comes the next week again.

    Happy gaming.

  12. #53592
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Man that trial was great but i imagine the super casual players are in for Titania flashbacks.
    It was intense for sure. I think I had one death and I was probably the fewest. Mechanic spoiler: I tried to escape the web circle the first time it came out and got pulled right back into an AOE.

  13. #53593
    So I take it 6.2 is now live? Sweet. Once my WoW sub ends, I'll resub to FF14 and see what's new.

  14. #53594
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    MSQ was pretty darn cool, can't wait for the continuation.

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It was intense for sure. I think I had one death and I was probably the fewest. Mechanic spoiler: I tried to escape the web circle the first time it came out and got pulled right back into an AOE.
    Haha, that makes 2 of us.
    Only time I died as well, the rest was pretty much a dance per usual.

    Bet the extreme version will be fun. Not that I'm ever going to do it, being retired from raiding and all.

  15. #53595
    Spent a couple hours trying out the new plantation owner gamemode. Built the workshop.

    The gameplay is a clicker. 90% of the gameplay is running around clicking anything that glows. The other 10% is navigating menus to order your robot slaves to build stuff.

    I can't help but compare the Island Sanctuary to the Sunsong Ranch from WoW, which had much more engaging gameplay. You didn't plant seeds by navigating a menu or just clicking. You grabbed a shovel and tilled the dirt. Then you planted the seeds. Then you grabbed the watering can and watered the soil. Then as your crops grew, you had to do various things to maintain them, such as grabbing a tool to spray the bugs, or grabbing weeds and slowly walking away from the dirt patch to yank the weeds out of the ground. Or a bullriding minigame where you ride a living vine that is strangling your crops and beating the crap out of it. etc. You also expanded the farm through a lot of interesting quests with the NPC neighbors you cared about, rather than just clicking and navigating a menu.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2022-08-24 at 08:17 PM.

  16. #53596
    not gonna lie, I feel like the new EX Trial is high end savage material in terms of mechanics.
    Hardly any downtime, the boss is basically doing something all the time and even the cast times are relatively (compared to for example endsinger) fast.

    Most savage bosses require less coordination.

    In the end it's still a "learn once and clear all the time"-boss, however that one has a much faster pace than usual.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-08-25 at 08:18 PM.

  17. #53597
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Island Sanctuary is about what I expected. It is a clicker + time gating building stuff. Something to be done in your off time. There's a really good post on reddit about why people should just slow the F down and stop trying to grind out to max level.

    I'd put the EX at early savage difficulty, the most major issue is EVERYONE ELSE. The first 3 fights of this expansion were easy "follow the leader" fights with a couple of mechanics that you had to think for yourself. But otherwise it was stack on the group for 90% of the fight.

    Both the Unreal and EX require lots of personal responsibility, and one person not being in the right spot can utterly screw your group. Endsinger EX was a joke, as was Ultima Weapon Unreal. These two fights are a HUGE step up in personal responsibility for mechanics, and there are a lot of people in party finder who just should not be there, or there are people who join "clear" groups without reading and they're fresh to the fight, making everyone who joined for a clear waste their time figuring out that this person was new. You have to practice these fights for a few hours, and can't just follow the leader like you once could.
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  18. #53598
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    not gonna lie, I feel like the new EX Trial is high end savage material in terms of mechanics.
    Hardly any downtime, the boss is basically doing something all the time and even the cast times are relatively (compared to for example endsinger) fast.

    Most savage bosses require less coordination.

    In the end it's still a "learn once and clear all the time"-boss, however that one has a much faster pace than usual.
    You are correct. I think this ex is harder than p1s p2s and p4s(phase 2) by a long shot. I love it, hella fun, even more fun than a lot of parts of uwu and tea even.

  19. #53599
    Quote Originally Posted by Moralgy View Post
    You are correct. I think this ex is harder than p1s p2s and p4s(phase 2) by a long shot. I love it, hella fun, even more fun than a lot of parts of uwu and tea even.
    My thoughts exactly.

    I as well think it's more difficult than P4S-P2.
    The movement is similar to what you do on Phoenix and some mechanics are as...nerve wracking(?)... as the 4-field thingy dracula does in P4S phase 1.

    I didn't even kill it yet. My group does trials blind without using a guide and in one and a half hours we didn't clear it. Endsinger and what not were extremely simple in contrast and we "finished gearing up" on the same day.. same with all the ones from shadowbringers and what not.
    I doubt we are going to see enrage or anything like that, but it is a very long fight with lots of mechanics.

    edit: gosh... I was thinking about what the fuck "uwu and tea" means and thought this was a reference to some weeb-meme bullshit, lmao.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-08-26 at 07:10 AM.

  20. #53600
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    My thoughts exactly.

    I as well think it's more difficult than P4S-P2.
    The movement is similar to what you do on Phoenix and some mechanics are as...nerve wracking(?)... as the 4-field thingy dracula does in P4S phase 1.

    I didn't even kill it yet. My group does trials blind without using a guide and in one and a half hours we didn't clear it. Endsinger and what not were extremely simple in contrast and we "finished gearing up" on the same day.. same with all the ones from shadowbringers and what not.
    I doubt we are going to see enrage or anything like that, but it is a very long fight with lots of mechanics.
    You will get it, its def the hardest extreme they have ever put out tbqh, but it is at least a bit more forgiving on a lot of metrics so while its non stop fast paced fun, it def allows for some mistakes sometimes at least! Me and some casual players took 3 lockouts on release doing it blind to get it, and the kill was kinda luck. My static took 1 lockout but only 5 were blind so its kinda cheating I guess lol.

    edit: gosh... I was thinking about what the fuck "uwu and tea" means and thought this was a reference to some weeb-meme bullshit, lmao.
    lol sorry i forget not everyone knows the short names for the ultis :3

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