Blizzard finally understood the value of casual players having more access to gear.

[Uncia Amethice]

No you don't. You could get M+8 gear from Zerith Mortis. The lower keys are pretty much run the dungeon as you would a heroic. The only thing you do differently is no looting. Low M+ was definitely "casual" content in Shadowlands.

In what world? ZM gives at best 252 after a lot of cypher grinding. That USED TO BE M+8 in Season 3, but in Season 4 it's about heroic dungeon level since ZM didn't get any updates (heroic is 249 now, M0 is 262, since all dungeon content got a boost of +26 item levels). So trying to get into raids now with ZM gear? Good luck - every single group out there is asking for 290+ and curve to get into normals.

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If all m+ is serious content then I'm assuming all players in Wrath were serious Uber players

I assume you are aware that Wrath did not have M+, nor was Wrath heroics difficulty anywhere remotely comparable to M+. Not to mention, in Wrath you could actually get a group after the first two weeks without having a KSM badge to show off as an entry fee.

[Osmeric]

Game still dies from my perspective. Either from fire or frost death is death. You haven't offered an alternative nor do I expect one. I don't care a wit about the " health" of the game only that its enjoyable to me.

My revenge fantasy scenario is Microsoft goes through the dev team, asks each member what their game design philosophy is, and fires all those who sound like they're stuck on the Blizzard standard "hard to master" idea. No, Developer, your game design philosophy is to be subservient to the desires of the typical customer (and not just the ones you've happened to retain), not your own vision what a customer should want.

[kaelix1]

Blizzard always understood the value of casual players, the problem is the definition of 'casual' changes each week, nowadays is 'give me free stuff because X,Y' reasons

[Osmeric]

Blizzard always understood the value of casual players, the problem is the definition of 'casual' changes each week, nowadays is 'give me free stuff because X,Y' reasons

No, I don't think they did, or at least they displayed a stunning lack of clue about how to cater to casual players. The difficulty of content has tended to creep up and up over time.

I think they have something broken in their organizational DNA that makes them repeatedly fail at appealing to casual players. When they have done so, it feels incidental, almost accidental. This is the reason I'm not enthused about any incremental changes one might hope would show they've changed. No, they'd have to be explicit about identifying the root causes and saying how those are being addressed before I might believe that.

[kaelix1]

No, I don't think they did, or at least they displayed a stunning lack of clue about how to cater to casual players. The difficulty of content has tended to creep up and up over time.

I think they have something broken in their organizational DNA that makes them repeatedly fail at appealing to casual players. This is the reason I'm not enthused about any incremental changes one might hope would show they've changed. No, they'd have to be explicit about identifying the root causes and saying how those are being addressed before I might believe that.

How does the increasing difficulty level affect the casual players? we have 3 dungeons levels, we have 4 raiding levels and we have mythic plus, if you don't have time/skill to do something stick(improve) to your level

[Celement]

My revenge fantasy scenario is Microsoft goes through the dev team, asks each member what their game design philosophy is, and fires all those who sound like they're stuck on the Blizzard standard "hard to master" idea. No, Developer, your game design philosophy is to be subservient to the desires of the typical customer (and not just the ones you've happened to retain), not your own vision what a customer should want.

It's an interesting idea but I think past tbc that idea became unfeasible. WoW isn't like old school runescape where the community is on the same page enough that you can have an in game majority rules vote for development via player choice.

WoW has over the years collected massive amounts if communities from being the only big mmo around that you will never appease all of them. Some people here desperately want to play a Korean grind mmo where simply putting a lot of time in makes you the best . I'm not disparaging that least not in this example but it isnt something wow is constructed to let you do.

It's like a television show. If a show I enjoy ends I simply watch another one I enjoy. I don't get why people dont have this attitude rather the pleading and threatening the company.

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No, I don't think they did, or at least they displayed a stunning lack of clue about how to cater to casual players. The difficulty of content has tended to creep up and up over time.

I think they have something broken in their organizational DNA that makes them repeatedly fail at appealing to casual players. When they have done so, it feels incidental, almost accidental. This is the reason I'm not enthused about any incremental changes one might hope would show they've changed. No, they'd have to be explicit about identifying the root causes and saying how those are being addressed before I might believe that.

There is an argument to be made difficulty has increased to far in raids (I would argue for the most part its decreased in dungeons as of late). That is a different argument to destroying the games progression systems though.

[Cynical Asshole]

Blizzard always understood the value of casual players, the problem is the definition of 'casual' changes each week, nowadays is 'give me free stuff because X,Y' reasons

Blizzard knows everything about casual players. Blizzard's big problem is that the main part of their end-game revolves entirely around difficult PVE content. They can stretch out this content because it takes a while for the vast majority of players to actually clear that content regularly, and during this time people will pay their subscription.

PVP is a minigame. Pet battles is a minigame. World content is microgame. Transmog grinding is a microgame. Achievements is an ultra microgame.
And the thing is, not all players are even interested in multiple of these minigames, if any at all, so Blizzard has to put all their chips on end-game raids and M+ to keep people in the game, or they will just leave and do something else.

Blizzard doesn't know how to make interesting end-game content that is more than the above minigames.

Housing would be an idea for content. Making players look for mats in the world and dungeons to make furniture and trophies for their house.

World PVP with objectives and rewards would be another idea. Though it would have to be well thought out in order to avoid players just win-trading for the rewards.

Hell, I wouldn't mind an endless battleground instance where you receive rewards the more you play and complete objectives in that bg, and you can jump in and out at any time.

[kaelix1]

Blizzard knows everything about casual players. Blizzard's big problem is that the main part of their end-game revolves entirely around difficult PVE content. They can stretch out this content because it takes a while for the vast majority of players to actually clear that content regularly, and during this time people will pay their subscription.

PVP is a minigame. Pet battles is a minigame. World content is microgame. Transmog grinding is a microgame. Achievements is an ultra microgame.
And the thing is, not all players are even interested in multiple of these minigames, if any at all, so Blizzard has to put all their chips on end-game raids and M+ to keep people in the game, or they will just leave and do something else.

Blizzard doesn't know how to make interesting end-game content that is more than the above minigames.

Housing would be an idea for content. Making players look for mats in the world and dungeons to make furniture and trophies for their house.

World PVP with objectives and rewards would be another idea. Though it would have to be well thought out in order to avoid players just win-trading for the rewards.

Hell, I wouldn't mind an endless battleground instance where you receive rewards the more you play and complete objectives in that bg, and you can jump in and out at any time.

while i agree with you, what you point out is not a 'casual' problem, its simple a contect problem from blizzard side

[potis]

My revenge fantasy scenario is Microsoft goes through the dev team, asks each member what their game design philosophy is, and fires all those who sound like they're stuck on the Blizzard standard "hard to master" idea. No, Developer, your game design philosophy is to be subservient to the desires of the typical customer (and not just the ones you've happened to retain), not your own vision what a customer should want.

Which is why you cant be taken seriously and which is why Blizzard ignores people like you.

You are gonna throw money at them either way, maybe not you, the 10 other million that you believe you represent will, and you will remain miserable, expecting something from a fantasy scendario.

Also what makes your money for important than mine? Ask every dev, anyone that cant produce raid content is a useless trash bag dev, especially anyone that will promote "casual" bullshit that can be completed in 40mins on Wednesday, see i can do it too.

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How does the increasing difficulty level affect the casual players? we have 3 dungeons levels, we have 4 raiding levels and we have mythic plus, if you don't have time/skill to do something stick(improve) to your level

It affects them from the fact it exposes them to the truth that they are paying money for something that they are incompotent at and it doesnt sit right with them in this new age of "participation trophies" they grew up with.

Thats why the game must change, cause the concept of improving does not exist in their brain.

[MoanaLisa]

I think they have something broken in their organizational DNA that makes them repeatedly fail at appealing to casual players. When they have done so, it feels incidental, almost accidental. This is the reason I'm not enthused about any incremental changes one might hope would show they've changed. No, they'd have to be explicit about identifying the root causes and saying how those are being addressed before I might believe that.

They have never understood why people don't want to get better at the game so they can access what they believe to be their best content. That was best demonstrated back in Cataclysm with Ghostcrawler's blog about dungeons being hard and how engaging that should be for players. That attitude was a reflection of management at that time, management that has departed the company over the last couple of years.

At one point Hazzikostas was heard to say in public that the only important content in WoW was raids and PVP. He wasn't game director then and I doubt if—as a business proposition—he believes that now. Nonetheless the push has always been to get people into more difficult content. There has been a lack of understanding as to why many have no interest in that and worse, an unstated policy to let them go.

Hazzikostas is now doing a very near 180 on this with his repeated statements that people will be able to progress their characters in DF by playing the content they prefer. It remains to be seen if that works out to be true but something has changed and it will be a big deal if it turns out to be a new design path. That likely has to do with most of the old guard being gone, the upheavals in the company over the lawsuits, and the impending sale to MSFT. It may have something to do with the clear fact that if and when the MSFT thing happens they will be a very small fish in a very large lake. Blizzard did something like $1.8 billion last fiscal year (if I recall correctly). MSFT regularly does 25X-30X more than that every three months.

I haven't a clue as to how this will work out in the long run but I tend to lean toward the idea that the thrust of the game (and its systems) are going to change, perhaps drastically over the next five years. People may rage about the game being dumbed down but the smart business move is to retrench the game so it welcomes players to return, provides clear paths as to what they need to know to properly get up and running quickly, and lowers the difficulty walls into their content. I doubt that you'll hear very much about "hard to master" in the future since that implies that people should be thinking about improving. That's not the game in the 2020s.

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Thats why the game must change, cause the concept of improving does not exist in their brain.

As a rule good games are not self-improvement projects. They are supposed to be fun, not calvinistic "we much get better" exercises. The ultimate sign that Blizzard is succeeding will be if people stop talking about the "work" they do in the game.

[potis]

As a rule good games are not self-improvement projects. They are supposed to be fun, not calvinistic "we much get better" exercises. The ultimate sign that Blizzard is succeeding will be if people stop talking about the "work" they do in the game.

Yeah, i always get that, what i dont get how can a Homo Sapiens not strive to improve at anything they are wasting time on, how can you possibly waste 40 hours a week as an example on an activity and not do it correctly.

"I go to the gym 5 times a week and change in gym clothes, then walk around it once, shower and head home"

How about the excercising part my man?

[kaelix1]

They have never understood why people don't want to get better at the game so they can access what they believe to be their best content. That was best demonstrated back in Cataclysm with Ghostcrawler's blog about dungeons being hard and how engaging that should be for players. That attitude was a reflection of management at that time, management that has departed the company over the last couple of years..

This is pure nonsense at it finest, Cataclysm dungeon difficulty was on community head 100%, WOTLK was perfect for the casuals, easy dungeons, easy to moderate raiding difficulty but the community throw a hissyfit and demanded 'good old days of tbc', WOTLK was the start of the 'casual' heaven and the irony is the community stop blizzard from going the path of casual with their whining

As a rule good games are not self-improvement projects. They are supposed to be fun, not calvinistic "we much get better" exercises. The ultimate sign that Blizzard is succeeding will be if people stop talking about the "work"they do in the game.

Again nonsense, you can do the same content as the so call hardcore, if you can't do mythic you have an option in heroic, if you can't do heroic you have an option with normal, same logic apply to lfr and mythic+, why don't you say it as it is, players that only do X level as x been normal/heroic/lfr, want access to mythic level gear, why? i have no freaking idea

[Nymrohd]

Hazzikostas is now doing a very near 180 on this with his repeated statements that people will be able to progress their characters in DF by playing the content they prefer. It remains to be seen if that works out to be true but something has changed and it will be a big deal if it turns out to be a new design path. That likely has to do with most of the old guard being gone, the upheavals in the company over the lawsuits, and the impending sale to MSFT. It may have something to do with the clear fact that if and when the MSFT thing happens they will be a very small fish in a very large lake. Blizzard did something like $1.8 billion last fiscal year (if I recall correctly). MSFT regularly does 25X-30X more than that every three months.

I haven't a clue as to how this will work out in the long run but I tend to lean toward the idea that the thrust of the game (and its systems) are going to change, perhaps drastically over the next five years. People may rage about the game being dumbed down but the smart business move is to retrench the game so it welcomes players to return, provides clear paths as to what they need to know to properly get up and running quickly, and lowers the difficulty walls into their content. I doubt that you'll hear very much about "hard to master" in the future since that implies that people should be thinking about improving. That's not the game in the 2020s.

It should be very clear to management that while the devs are mostly safe, upper and middle management in projects like WoW will all get sacked or at best laterally demoted if the last product they release before MS starts doing reviews is a flop. If DF follows the classic "record sales and losing the significant majority of players within 3 months" that has been the pattern for every wow expac from WoD to SL except maybe Legion, he is done.

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Again nonsense, you can do the same content as the so call hardcore, if you can't do mythic you have an option in heroic, if you can't do heroic you have an option with normal, same logic apply to lfr and mythic+, why don't you say it as it is, players that only do X level as x been normal/heroic/lfr, want access to mythic level gear, why? i have no freaking idea

Because they don't. You can repeat the same strawman ad nauseam because it is the only argument you have; claiming that a significant section of the remaining playerbase is just entitled brats who should just leave the game is really your only opinion on this without engaging on anything explained about this segment, the vast majority of which outside a few active and vocal trolls are NOT asking for free mythic gear but rather for a long term progression path which they have had in the past and they do not have now.

[kaelix1]

Because they don't. You can repeat the same strawman ad nauseam because it is the only argument you have; claiming that a significant section of the remaining playerbase is just entitled brats who should just leave the game is really your only opinion on this without engaging on anything explained about this segment, the vast majority of which outside a few active and vocal trolls are NOT asking for free mythic gear but rather for a long term progression path which they have had in the past and they do not have now.

The same logic can be applied to you, you have no explanation for what stops the so call casuals from doing the content they have time/level, you have your progress path, you can go from 226 anima gear level to 291 level, easy, quite easy, be by raiding, be by dungeons, the options are there, hell, i did it last week with my shaman healer, 226 to 285 in few days, no one-stop be, get bored of pve? do some bgs, bored of bgs? i went and farmed rare mounts, bored of rare mounts farming. i did some pet battles for lulz, shit is there, but hey, its 2022

[Nymrohd]

This is pure nonsense at it finest, Cataclysm dungeon difficulty was on community head 100%, WOTLK was perfect for the casuals, easy dungeons, easy to moderate raiding difficulty but the community throw a hissyfit and demanded 'good old days of tbc', WOTLK was the start of the 'casual' heaven and the irony is the community stop blizzard from going the path of casual with their whining

There is no "community". There are individual vocal members voicing opinions and people who choose to interpret those opinions. Trying to aggregate all opinions of the 10 million people who played Wrath into community is frankly moronic.
When it comes to the difficulty of Wrath dungeons people seem to draw a blank. At entry level gear Wrath dungeons were decently challenging and Loken kept eating noobs for breakfast several times per day. But when the final patch significantly improved motivation for getting Valor combined with LFG and all the catch up gear people had collected to that point (Trial of the Champion alone) people got reintroduced to the Wrath dungeons (that they had mostly stopped running) with far better gear, often with a few raiders carrying them through the content. By the end of Wrath, people would simply AoE every pack and blow up bosses before they could even use their mechanics. So yes, parts of the community noted that they'd rather have somewhat challenging content.

And Cata dungeons were not really hard because of challenging design. They were mostly hard because the healing redesign of Cata was a disaster at low gear levels. Outside Holy Paladins the rest of the healers could not support players who failed mechanics. That's what made them frustrating. Well that and Ozruk.

[Uncia Amethice]

The same logic can be applied to you, you have no explanation for what stops the so call casuals from doing the content they have time/level, you have your progress path, you can go from 226 anima gear level to 291 level, easy, quite easy, be by raiding, be by dungeons, the options are there, hell, i did it last week with my shaman healer, 226 to 285 in few days, no one-stop be, get bored of pve? do some bgs, bored of bgs? i went and farmed rare mounts, bored of rare mounts farming. i did some pet battles for lulz, shit is there, but hey, its 2022

"Anyone can get 226 to 285 in a few days by facerolling". You can do it, because you have a) a well established main (or several) meaning you can point to achievements and r.io scores and so on to get into group, b) an existing support network of people who will be guaranteed to invite you into groups and run decent level m+ with you, and c) months and months of already knowing every single M+ route and skip and tactic like the back of your hand which you had the luxury of learning when other people were too, making them less unforgiving.

Many people don't, especially if they are "casual" meaning they don't live inside a raid or constant m+ farming from day 1 of every patch, but do other content and whatever pace they enjoy. At that point, you may be 252 "ZM BiS" geared, but you can't get into M+ because every group above a m0 demands you already have KSM from previous seasons to link, and every single Normal+ raid group demands you have previous-season normal+ achievements to link as well as a 280+ iLevel already.
As such, there is very little in the way of a progress path for anyone who isn't already tied to the treadmill.

[Nymrohd]

The same logic can be applied to you, you have no explanation for what stops the so call casuals from doing the content they have time/level, you have your progress path, you can go from 226 anima gear level to 291 level, easy, quite easy, be by raiding, be by dungeons, the options are there, hell, i did it last week with my shaman healer, 226 to 285 in few days, no one-stop be, get bored of pve? do some bgs, bored of bgs? i went and farmed rare mounts, bored of rare mounts farming. i did some pet battles for lulz, shit is there, but hey, its 2022

First off, this has nothing to do with casuals. That's the most stupid word used in this community. Casual players don't care. They log a few hours and they do whatever. Their issues actually match raid loggers; they just want to be able to participate without a huge time investment. Their additional issue will always be lack of catch up gear. 9.2 had solid catch up gear. The current patch does NOT. So their main issue is Barriers to Entry.
Instead this has been for years about players who avoid non-matchmade group content. The reasoning which is instantly disputed by the other side is a mix of social anxiety, a time schedule filled with interruptions and a very poor experience (probably unfair and likely incidental, but still poor) with the Warcraft PuG community. These people simply do not want to do group content that forces a social interaction (and the feeling of evaluation is considered a social interaction) or cannot commit to group content that lasts longer than 15 minutes if they cannot call a break if needed.
These people however can commit to playing multiple hours per day. They may even commit to very challenging content if it can be done solo and in small time increments or with the ability to pause. Their main issue is Lack of Progression Track for their content type.
As for what the progression path would look like; I think we had the perfect example in BfA with the conquest track. First two months of the patch, weekly gaining gear that is at Normal Raid Ilvl for a reasonable time committment doing a variety of tasks (think MoP Valor). Rest of the patch, weekly Heroic gear. The progression by no means threatens people who play the game's group content.

And to make an additional observation. With Legion Blizzard added a new playstyle based on Dungeon content and the M+ system. Early on the Progression Track for M+ was crap; you effectively were capped from progressing as you wanted without raiding. By now they kept iterating on that progression track and M+ has more than eclipsed PvP and Raiding to have the most rewarding progression track compared to time committment, organization and skill level. The only issue there is Barrier to Entry (the knowledge requirement for M+, especially for tanking, are significantly greater than for Raiding). This shows they can absolutely craft new progression tracks as they see fit.

[facefist]

No, I don't think they did, or at least they displayed a stunning lack of clue about how to cater to casual players. The difficulty of content has tended to creep up and up over time.

I think they have something broken in their organizational DNA that makes them repeatedly fail at appealing to casual players. When they have done so, it feels incidental, almost accidental. This is the reason I'm not enthused about any incremental changes one might hope would show they've changed. No, they'd have to be explicit about identifying the root causes and saying how those are being addressed before I might believe that.

As an casual (but not shitty skilled) myself, m+ is the biggest cater to casual players ever. I can literally play 20min/week and end up in basically the same gear as mythic raiders.

Every expac until Legion was raid or enjoy your shit gear. For someone who isn't skilled enough to run high m+ the game doesn't really cater though I admit that.

But in the past you had to play hours and hours every week for consumables, buffs, raids and professions to get a proper gear. Gearing has never been as relaxed timewise as it is now. Skillwise it is harder though, so it's probably worse for low skilled but better for higher skilled players.

[Nymrohd]

As an casual (but not shitty skilled) myself, m+ is the biggest cater to casual players ever. I can literally play 20min/week and end up in basically the same gear as mythic raiders.

Every expac until Legion was raid or enjoy your shit gear. For someone who isn't skilled enough to run high m+ the game doesn't really cater though I admit that.

But in the past you had to play hours and hours every week for consumables, buffs, raids and professions to get a proper gear. Gearing has never been as relaxed timewise as it is now. Skillwise it is harder though, so it's probably worse for low skilled but better for higher skilled players.

M+ is amazing for casual players. IMo the only issue is that it is poor for casual players who play intermittently. If you want to log in a couple of times per week and play about an hour M+ is great as long as you don't stop playing for long periods of time and you are around for expansion launch.
However if you are not around at expansion launch or if you take longer breaks you are just not going to keep the routes in mind. It can work for dps, especially for ranged dps but good luck tanking.

Then again perhaps you just cannot tank casually.

[Shink]

snip

Blizzard always knew the value its just not worth it because it doesn't keep subs unlike what popular belief thinks


1. they don't, they always leave for the next fix
2. they didn't need gear to do that
3. again didn't need gear
4. again
5. they do everything thats available to them even if its hard


more gear options available helps everyone that plays, casuals will always play and leave regardless, the game is just old that is why "new" players stay away there is no fixing that