is M+ and Tier Forge killing raid ?

[gonzajd777]

sup folks

I make this thread because i think, M+ and Tier Forge is slowing killing raid .

every day is harder and harder to get enough people to fill an stable raid group, and my theory is that the loot system is a big factor.

weekly +15 mythic vault loot with same ilvl than 20M mithyc raid
for real, anyone think a +15 is hard as 20M mithyc raid?
not just the content difficulty , think about recruiiting and coordinating 20 players good enough to have success.
now think how much effort do you need to complete, just complete a +15 key

now add the new feature , the tier forge where you can get tier from literally any item from M+... why in the hell people will make raid content?
its harder, longer, requiere more people, coordination, compromise, effortt and it reward is misserable

in my opinion, and read it like that, like this post.
-weekly mythic vault should reward with the higher Ilvl just if you have made at least 20+ mythic keys
-tier set its a Raid reward, always was it... if you want raid rewards, you should make raid. (players cant get trinkets form M+ without doing M+)

[Ashana Darkmoon]

If so, it's only proof that raiding needs to die because it's not nearly as popular a game mode in 2022.

But also no! It's not actually happening, there are still plenty of people raiding at different levels, and a lot of folks still enjoy it.

[Trenbolone]

Raiding being slog and bore killed raiding. M+ is a better content. Recycled too much sadly.
They would be better off releasing smaller raids with content patches but pair it with 2 dungeons for m+.

[Enter Name Here]

raids should be gutted down to cosmetic drops at this point since all players outgear the content (below mythic) anyway.

m+ rewards way more loot at less difficulty. plus: in the vault you can spam the same dungeons to fill up your counter - can't do that with just a single boss in raids. so it's being already treated as an afterthought.

[exsanguinate]

If so, it's only proof that raiding needs to die because it's not nearly as popular a game mode in 2022.

But also no! It's not actually happening, there are still plenty of people raiding at different levels, and a lot of folks still enjoy it.

Ofc its not popular if you get same item level for lower effort big brain

[VinceVega]

Raiding is a bigger time comittment. People don't do this unless teh reward is big enough.

Doesn't matter what content and where.

I think it is sad because (imho, feel free to disagree) wow was the only MMO where raiding was actually fun. FF14 came close but the anime and pedo bullshit is something i just can't stomach.

Wow has such huge loot inflation that it is worth basically nothing. You get bis from everywhere i don't really see a point in the whole system anymore. Get rid of it make it a action MMO like they try to do for years now. No loot and everyone can play what they actually like. Maybe then people can raid outside of guilds again normally.

In the end i think it isn't even in decline really (quality and reward wise yes) not people who want to raid.
It is just the last patch of the expansion and this patch just rehashes old raid people have done to death allready.
Who likes that actually?

Raiding is not mythic+ where you have a bit of variety. You do this one raid for 4-6 month. I don't want to see this raid for at least 2 years after that.

[kranur]

sup folks

I make this thread because i think, M+ and Tier Forge is slowing killing raid .

It's not World of Raidcraft, you know.

[Uko]

If mythic raids were tuned as easy as a +15 mythic raiding would be bazonkers popular. All expansion its tuned to be ball bustingly hard so of course people are noping out for M+.

[Cierah]

Killing it? No. Making it a little less relevant? Yes. That said it is only since the introduction of the tier forge that said relevance has been diminished.

Previously with tier the only place you could get it was in the raid. Nowhere else except for one piece you could maybe get from a WB which you generally needed an equivalent number of players to a raid to kill. Realistically that's the way it should have stayed. M+ and the Vault reward system feeding into the Forge is skewing things drastically.

The max in-dungeon reward you can get from M+ is slightly below heroic raid level. The Vault, otoh, is what is seeding the mythic-level gear for much less difficulty. Granted that's only once per week but still it is a significant bump up. In season 4 there have only been three vaults eligible for max-level loot including today. It isn't destabilizing and realistically when we get to DF all of these precious purples we're getting will be worthless halfway through the leveling process.

Will there be a Forge in DF? Who knows. It is the combination of the two minimizing mythic level gear and that's if you don't get drops you either already have or are in a slot you wouldn't use the tier for anyway.

For now, enjoy the ride. Come DF if there is no forge you'll get the same crowd moaning about no access to tier but they won't raid to get it.

[Ludek]

If people are not doing raids because M+ is giving better rewards time wise... it's not the problem with M+ but with raiding - simple.

Instead of nerfing M+ loot potential, they should buff raid ones - PVP also has better reward structure so why nerf one to have two subpar loot routes, when you can buff one and have 3 which are decent?

[unbound]

Is M+ killing raid?

To some extent yes. But the real answer is the lack of content.

If I'm going to grind the exact same content over and over and over (and over) again on a difficulty slider, I'm more likely going to do it on the mode that has at least some more content (8 or 9 dungeons vs 1 relevant raid) and doesn't involve hours on a scripted fight that may fail because a handful of people moved a little too slow or didn't respond to something exactly correctly.

Right now, for end game, you can do the "Go! Go! Go!" M+ or the "Dance exactly as specified" raid. Neither choice is appealing to many gamers...those that remain are just going to choice the one with fewer headaches. Blizz needs to stop being cheap and start providing more content and more options.

[Lolites]

for people who raid bcs they enjoy it? nope
for people who only raid for gear? still nope, as best trinkets and weapons usualy drop from raid and tier set, although available via catalyst, was available via raid MUCH sooner...
as for difficulty, sure M+15 is not as hard as mythic raid, but!! first 1-2 bosses in raid are usualy not really as hard as rest of raid too, yet they reward the same gear...
so the ONE WEEKLY ITEM, which have high chance to be useless (one item from HUGE POOL, all rings and necks with terrible stats, trinkets with terrible effects, 1h weapons when you want 2h etc) and cant be really "targeted", AND! is shared in vault with raid and pvp (killing first 2 M bosses is enough for guaranteed piece of gear) is hardly an issue...

[Tiwack]

I think raidwipe from a single player fuck-up is killing raiding.

[JustaWarlock]

M+ is trivial content compared to raids. You can spam it all day, every day. It rewards you with mythic ilvl loot for failing to time a key.

It is literally participation trophy content. It is only popular due to it showering you with loot for little effort. If loot from M+ was balanced properly then it wouldn't be nearly as "popular".

[neik]

I look at the raiding as a huge 3 hour bullying fiesta with imaginary hierarchies, and potentially nothing interesting for me to offer.

That's why mythic plus is so attractive to me because it's so independent from anyone and anything. I will never go back to raiding in this game again. Asking for more penalties on top of existing one's isn't ideal either.

[Eosia]

No. It offers people who do not like to raid challenging content to do. It also provides other gearing opportunities for those who do raid.

[Ludek]

M+ is trivial content compared to raids. You can spam it all day, every day. It rewards you with mythic ilvl loot for failing to time a key.

It is literally participation trophy content. It is only popular due to it showering you with loot for little effort. If loot from M+ was balanced properly then it wouldn't be nearly as "popular".

What exactly is to balance in M+ raid? Rate of aquisition? Yes the drop chance is twice as high as for the raid boss drop, and also it’s spammable… but spamming can only give you max heroic raid ilvl items.

Above heroic ilvl, mythic raid will still provide more gear per week than M+ (chance on boss kill + vault vs just vault) so what’s the problem here? Vault gear is too easy to get so people don’t want to raid? We had this kind of weekly welfare epic since WoD mission table and raiding was more or less alive through all that time.

[JustaWarlock]

What exactly is to balance in M+ raid? Rate of aquisition? Yes the drop chance is twice as high as for the raid boss drop, and also it’s spammable… but spamming can only give you max heroic raid ilvl items.

So it has invalidated Heroic raiding (and normal raiding) because 15's are far far easier to complete than a heroic raid. And a 15 will reward you with a choice of 3 mythic raid ilvl item from the GV - AND you can fail and not even time them and still get the inflated ilvl items!

Above heroic ilvl, mythic raid will still provide more gear per week than M+.

This is rubbish. Anybody who actually spams M+ and raids knows that M+ gears you far quicker. It is not unusual to go a full clear with NOTHING. Or for your drop to be useless because you already have better from M+. And clearing the raid gives you 3 choices from the GV - but only from the ilvl of the content you did. Clear heroic? you don't get mythic loot from the GV. Unlike M+, which let's you fail to time an easy +15 and awards you mythic loot.

Take last season - I ran M+ and cleared the raid. Every single item I had equipped at the end of season 3 was from M+ - both trinkets, all tier, all other items. Every week I was expected to clear the raid, yet nothing ever dropped that was worth equipping I hadn't already got from M+.

[Somic]

If raids were good and adapted to modern gaming it wouldn’t be dying. Just because people have an avenue that’s more fun doesn’t mean that the more fun content is the issue.

Lost arks raids are way more fun imo. Little to no trash, wipes take seconds to regroup, smaller time invested in the raids overall, of course more people are going to want to do that.

Not a lot of people want to spend hours upon hours upon hours clearing trash and waiting for CDs to try an attempt again.

[JustaWarlock]

that’s more fun doesn’t mean that the more fun content is the issue.

It's only "more fun" because it showers you in welfare inflated ilvl loot.

It would be amazing how much less fun M+ would become overnight if rewards matched the difficulty.