Global warming may have already passed irreversible tipping point

[Rasulis]

Fines really need to scale with wealth so that these people actually notice the fine rather than just treat it as part of the normal costs of living.

It would be interesting to see at what price point(s) these people would start paying attention. According to the LA times article, the Kardashian paid around $5,500 per month for their water use. The Sultan of Brunei use over 1,000,000 gallon per month for his Las Vegas compound and paid around $20,000 per month. Obviously, money does not mean much to them.

Back to San Francisco. The Pacific Ocean fog engine has been working overtime this summer. Not a single heat wave in the Bay Area this summer. That may be ending as we are entering September when the Diablo Wind will start bringing the heat from inland to the coastal zone. However, a weak low-pressure system to the north is on its way out, and when its counterclockwise flow meets the Pacific High’s clockwise flow today, the San Francisco Bay will get a blast of cold, marine air. Enough to kick the sea breeze all the way into the Sacramento Delta. Plenty of cool air for the North Bay and East Bay. The temperature on the west side of San Francisco, Pacifica and Half-Moon Bay may struggle to reach above 60 by this afternoon. East Bay will be in the low 70s. Petaluma, Napa, Sonoma, San Ramon and Livermore around 90s in the afternoon dropping into the low 50s at night. Santa Cruz in the 70s and San Jose 80s.

[Nymrohd]

Fines really need to scale with wealth so that these people actually notice the fine rather than just treat it as part of the normal costs of living.

Or just cap how much water a property can get per surface area. Actually not per area. Per people living there. You do not have a legal right to a lawn.

[cubby]

Fines really need to scale with wealth so that these people actually notice the fine rather than just treat it as part of the normal costs of living.

You know, interestingly, some European countries use the value of the vehicle to levy speeding fines. Yet one more of the litany of things other developed countries do better than the U.S.

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It would be interesting to see at what price point(s) these people would start paying attention. According to the LA times article, the Kardashian paid around $5,500 per month for their water use. The Sultan of Brunei use over 1,000,000 gallon per month for his Las Vegas compound and paid around $20,000 per month. Obviously, money does not mean much to them.

The Kardashisluts make about $1MM per tweet, not too mention all the other crap they sell/market for money. $5,500/mo is probably less than they spend on makeup. I read somewhere that rich people look at U.S. parking tickets and other such fines as just fees for doing things - the fine is so small it doesn't even register.

This is the same situation. $20,000/mo for a Sultan - he probably spends more on ball washers.

[Edge-]

You know, interestingly, some European countries use the value of the vehicle to levy speeding fines. Yet one more of the litany of things other developed countries do better than the U.S.

Basing the fine on the price of the property would be a start! It could easily reduce fines on lower income folks who have something like a broken water pipe or idiot guest who forgets to turn off the sink pushing them over, and could provide an actual hope of a financial deterrent for the uber-wealthy folks who need to keep their 54 acre garden resort in the desert.

[cubby]

Basing the fine on the price of the property would be a start! It could easily reduce fines on lower income folks who have something like a broken water pipe or idiot guest who forgets to turn off the sink pushing them over, and could provide an actual hope of a financial deterrent for the uber-wealthy folks who need to keep their 54 acre garden resort in the desert.

Agreed. And the law would be easy, just make it a percentage of the last tax-assessed price.

[Deus Mortis]

Basing the fine on the price of the property would be a start! It could easily reduce fines on lower income folks who have something like a broken water pipe or idiot guest who forgets to turn off the sink pushing them over, and could provide an actual hope of a financial deterrent for the uber-wealthy folks who need to keep their 54 acre garden resort in the desert.

I would really like to see this. It would be nice for the little guy that the fine would not crush them, and make it so the rich actually have to play by the rules.

[plz delete account]

Did you know cotton grown in the US uses about 1.5k gallons of water, and the same cotton grown in China uses 22.5k gallons of water?

[luc54]

Basing the fine on the price of the property would be a start! It could easily reduce fines on lower income folks who have something like a broken water pipe or idiot guest who forgets to turn off the sink pushing them over, and could provide an actual hope of a financial deterrent for the uber-wealthy folks who need to keep their 54 acre garden resort in the desert.

You could adopt the day-fine concept we have here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day Basically you pay based on your income. Some noted some 100k€ fines to some rich guys were unreasonable in the US without understanding it punishes them as it's gonna punish some guy who gets far less wages and gets let's say 300€ fine. But I guess people gotta shill for the rich because they are such "opressed" class or something. Now granted it could also be difficult with cases where super rich have basically zero income and make money off investments, but it should be possible to use % of property price then.

[Edge-]

You could adopt the day-fine concept we have here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day Basically you pay based on your income. Some noted some 100k€ fines to some rich guys were unreasonable in the US without understanding it punishes them as it's gonna punish some guy who gets far less wages and gets let's say 300€ fine. But I guess people gotta shill for the rich because they are such "opressed" class or something. Now granted it could also be difficult with cases where super rich have basically zero income and make money off investments, but it should be possible to use % of property price then.

Income-based fines are not great, honestly. I mean, IIRC Zuckerberg's official income is $1/year, and there's no way to write out those kinds of loopholes no matter how hard you try.

There's no perfect solution and basing it on the size of the property has similar problems.

But real, fuck rich people complaining about spending money. Sorry you can't buy your 4th condo for the 3 weeks you spend in Paris every year.

[Rasulis]

Income-based fines are not great, honestly. I mean, IIRC Zuckerberg's official income is $1/year, and there's no way to write out those kinds of loopholes no matter how hard you try.

There's no perfect solution and basing it on the size of the property has similar problems.

But real, fuck rich people complaining about spending money. Sorry you can't buy your 4th condo for the 3 weeks you spend in Paris every year.

It is not that complicated. The ultimate goal is to save water. Not to punish rich people. The Water District can cut off water for however long it takes to make up for the amount of water overuse or install a flow restrictor to limit the water usage.

[Edge-]

It is not that complicated. The ultimate goal is to save water. Not to punish rich people. The Water District can cut off water for however long it takes to make up for the amount of water overuse or install a flow restrictor to limit the water usage.

Yes...but it's complicated. I'm firm in my "water is a human right" position, but at the same time this isn't really unreasonable for wealthy folks. Want to water your massive garden? Bring in a few trucks of grey water and shit and use that. Thirsty? Order more cases of bottled water. Need to take a shower? Go to the country club. Or one of your other condo's/houses.

Or...avoid having your water shut off to begin with by not using the municipal supply to water your 50 acre garden in the middle of the desert and use grey water you purchase specifically for that, and start treating water like the undervalued, critical, limited resources that it actually is.

Our whole water policy in general is absolutely bonkers and basically predicated on ignoring the issue in the hopes it goes away or that some other poor sap down the road, who isn't you, has to deal with the problems when they start getting serious. We're already seeing much of that now, but it will just get worse unless regions come up with serious, longterm sustainable plans.

[Rasulis]

Yes...but it's complicated. I'm firm in my "water is a human right" position, but at the same time this isn't really unreasonable for wealthy folks. Want to water your massive garden? Bring in a few trucks of grey water and shit and use that. Thirsty? Order more cases of bottled water. Need to take a shower? Go to the country club. Or one of your other condo's/houses.

Or...avoid having your water shut off to begin with by not using the municipal supply to water your 50 acre garden in the middle of the desert and use grey water you purchase specifically for that, and start treating water like the undervalued, critical, limited resources that it actually is.

Our whole water policy in general is absolutely bonkers and basically predicated on ignoring the issue in the hopes it goes away or that some other poor sap down the road, who isn't you, has to deal with the problems when they start getting serious. We're already seeing much of that now, but it will just get worse unless regions come up with serious, longterm sustainable plans.

I find the whole thing ridiculous. San Francisco is a pretty ritzy town with 3,847 millionaires per square mile. Ten golf courses. No water shortage. Here is historical water use for San Francisco. Compare that to Las Virgenes 260 gallon per day per person.

[Combatbutler]

Our whole water policy in general is absolutely bonkers and basically predicated on ignoring the issue in the hopes it goes away or that some other poor sap down the road, who isn't you, has to deal with the problems when they start getting serious. We're already seeing much of that now, but it will just get worse unless regions come up with serious, longterm sustainable plans.

Humans are experts in kicking the can down the road, I would be extremely surprised if they managed to get their shit together, I fully expect this to blow up in our face.

[Milchshake]

Restore Hetch Hetchy plz!

[Icelin]

I have seen multiple documentaries on this topic. In many different places of the world. Places in Europe have been trying to come up with solutions instead of doing nothing. Yet it doesn't get proper funding or mandated on crop fields.

Humans are experts in kicking the can down the road, I would be extremely surprised if they managed to get their shit together, I fully expect this to blow up in our face.

Actually one of the documentaries I watched had a scientist claiming he went to Pentagon along with other places many years ago and informed them of what was going to happen. Yet nothing is still being done.

Did you know cotton grown in the US uses about 1.5k gallons of water, and the same cotton grown in China uses 22.5k gallons of water?

Did you know Google used 3.4 billion gallons of water? This is only one tech corporation btw. Yet I read several times in this thread that humans are parasites and deserve less and less. (No pools, no lawns, almost to the point of no air conditioning)

I was not happy today that some counties on the west coast are currently having trucks ship in water. Let alone one has already become a ghost town. Lots of people have tried to do something but to no avail. (As stated earlier in my post) I did read an article of one of the most logical solutions was to destroy crop fields that are people's livelihoods and how that will not possibly hurt the food shortage crisis. While handing out tickets to the public on water consumption.

[Rasulis]

Restore Hetch Hetchy plz!

It will require an act of Congress. San Francisco is not going to voluntarily relinquish their right to Hetch Hetchy. Hetch Hetchy put San Francisco in the enviable position of being one of the few cities in the US with access to more water than it consumed. Even during the worst drought in California, Hetch Hetchy stored three times more water than what the city consumed. Not to mention the pristine water does not require filtration.

Cut & paste from Wikipedia.

Water from Hetch Hetchy is some of the cleanest municipal water in the United States; San Francisco is one of six U.S. cities not required by law to filter its tap water, although the water is disinfected by ozonation and, since 2011, exposure to UV. The water quality is high because of the unique geology of the upper Tuolumne River drainage basin, which consists mostly of bare granite; as a result, the rivers feeding Hetch Hetchy Reservoir have extremely low loads of sediments and nutrients. The watershed is also strictly protected, so swimming and boating are prohibited at the reservoir (although fishing is permitted at the reservoir and in the rivers which feed it), a measure which is considered unusual for US lakes outside the region.

As an engineer, I shudder at the thought of drinking water with such minimal treatment. On the other hand, after 2 years of bathing with and drinking the water, we haven't dropped dead yet. Not to mention that San Francisco tap water tastes damn good.

[jonnysensible]

Musky over here saying low births rates are a bigger issue than global warming…

almost as if he used EV and 'saving the world' as a marketing gimmick to get rich.

Not to mention that the global population is going one way, up. Just not whiteys.

[Endus]

Musky over here saying low births rates are a bigger issue than global warming…

Low birth rates are literally only a concern to fuckboy capitalists who need there to be a constantly-growing market for products because capitalism requires infinite growth because it's not sustainable.

Anyone else expressing such concerns is just parroting those capitalists and doesn't understand why they're bitching.

Population decline only becomes a "problem" when you've predicated your society on infinite growth, and that's your society being fucking stupid, and you should just stop being stupid rather than try and desperately boost population growth rates.

[Rasulis]

I posted about power plants in Europe having to reduce output because the cooling and receiving water were too hot. In the US, we may not even have enough water to cool those reactors.

Drought threatens coal plant operations — and electricity — across the West

Driving through the Wyoming sagebrush west of Cheyenne, the clouds of dust rising from the road give way to giant plumes of steam shooting into the warming sky.

This is the Jim Bridger power plant, one of the largest coal-fired power sources in the nation and an enormous emitter of carbon dioxide pollution. At the plant's edge there's a reservoir, lined with rocks and clumps of drying grass. The plant sucks up about 16 million gallons of water each day, using it to power more than million homes across six western states, all the way to Oregon.

But there's a problem that looms for the coal plant operator and the customers that rely on it for electricity. This water is piped here from the Green River, a tributary of the rapidly shrinking Colorado River. Now, amidst a decades-long drought and a shortage of water downstream across the Southwest, future conservation in the basin could mean industrial users like Jim Bridger see their water shut off, says Wyoming State Engineer Brandon Gebhart.

"They would be likely the first one shut off. Unless they were able to find a different source of water, we would have to just shut off their water and not allow them to divert," Gebhart says.

The western U.S. hasn't been this dry for more than 1,200 years, but 30 western coal plants continue to suck up 156 million gallons a day of the region's scarce water, according to the Energy Information Administration. Now the very plants whose emissions help drive climate change are at risk of shutdowns, because the water they need to operate has fallen to unprecedented levels.

Some utilities are already sending warnings, telling federal regulators that the drought could threaten coal plant operations. But there's uncertainty at the state level over which officials are responsible for managing drought risk to power plants and the threat of brownouts and blackouts.

Old coal plants like Jim Bridger have for decades been critical to the grid, says David Eskelsen, spokesman for Rocky Mountain Power, a division of PacifiCorp, which operates the Wyoming plant. "With all the concerns about the use of fossil fuels, climate change, and the use of water in this way," Eskelsen says, "that has to be balanced against the role that these particular power plants play in the stability of the regional transmission system."

But rising water scarcity in the West means the stability of coal plants like Jim Bridger is no longer a sure thing, says Joe Smyth, research manager at the Energy and Policy Institute, a utility watchdog group.

"If you don't have water to cool it, you can't run it, right? Like it's not a minor risk. It is a very disruptive event," he says, "If you're not aware of those risks, then you are not really operating your power plants responsibly."

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My wife used to complain that San Diego weather was boring - sunny every day. At least in San Diego we had such a thing as nighttime low and daytime high. Which ranged between 15F to 20F. You can barely differentiate between nighttime low and daytime high here.

[Ripster42]

Graphs comparing the old (Robert Steadman, 1979) and new heat index (David Romps and Yi-Chuan Lu/UC Berkeley, 2022).

So where's the rest of the chart? The highest combo I've lived through was apparently on 8/30/2013 when it was 99F and 78% humidity. Do I just not get to know?