1. #22601
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    Gruesome, but two things:

    1. How do we know it's in fact a skull from an Azovstal fighter and
    2. How do we know if it's a real skull.

    I wouldn't put it beyond them to lie to build a fearsome reputation. (and I also wouldn't put legit barbarism beyond them.)

  2. #22602
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    Russia is the bad guy for glassing Ukraine. USA is the bad guy for NATO expansionism next to Russian borders when they knew full well the repercussions. Europe is the bad guy for being literally too stupid to deal with self-sufficiency or at the very least invest in energy earlier. Now we pay the price. We are now here.

    The US will have an edge because of the dollar strength. Don't believe me? Look at the DXY in the coming months /this year, it shows dollar strength in relation to other currencies. The euro will tumble, the EU may even crumble, and the dollar will reign even more supreme. Maybe, just maybe... The US are not the saints we thought they were?
    NATO expansion isn't the US' fault.
    That aside, is this an argument against US/EU involvement?

  3. #22603
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    NATO expansion isn't the US' fault.
    That aside, is this an argument against US/EU involvement?
    It's a "I'm resentment poisoned due to the fact that my country's persistently shitty and corrupt government is shitty and corrupt so I cope with that resentment by embracing batshit conspiracy theories and involving myself in ponzi schemes" argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #22604
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    Yes, it's sad that's the way geopolitics work nowadays. A few big bullies vying over influence and control among themselves, with the little guy getting fucked over. Little guy being Ukraine right now. Could also be Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Grenada, Lebanon, Vietnam, Panama, Yugoslavia, Taiwan, the list goes on and on.

    Control over resources, assets, votes, political leanings. Creating axes of control, a "West vs East", asking countries to pick a side, to be "with us or without us". Choosing "without us" leading to being obliterated financially in most cases, even militarily in some others. Russia does it, USA does it, China does it, the EU does it. Because you can't solve a problem diplomatically, you have to exert influence to get what you want.

    Well, for the first time, it's the EU feeling the repercussions of that "war for influence". I just hope people wake up one day, but who am I kidding, most of you will never see the forest for the trees.

    You say Russia is at fault for the war in Ukraine. I say yes, but every superpower has a mandate to invade and glass the neighboring country if they feel threatened. I don't agree with that, obviously, but it is the way of the world. And the Americans knew that, so they pushed Ukraine into NATO. Only to see how far Russia would go. Russia would of course show weakness if they remained idle, so they wage war, brother against brother.
    So...Russia shouldn't stop with Ukraine, but continue to push forward?

  5. #22605
    Immortal hellhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    So...Russia shouldn't stop with Ukraine, but continue to push forward?
    I can't tell you who's winning, but I don't see Russia backing down.

    When they are done with Ukraine, invasion of Finland and Sweden is unfortunately looking probable if they haven't joined NATO until that point. Everyone will act shocked, again, and I will come again and say "I told you so". If they officially join NATO, Russia will undermine them in other ways.

  6. #22606
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    I can't tell you who's winning, but I don't see Russia backing down.

    When they are done with Ukraine, invasion of Finland and Sweden is unfortunately looking probable if they haven't joined NATO until that point. Everyone will act shocked, again, and I will come again and say "I told you so". If they officially join NATO, Russia will undermine them in other ways.
    They attack any NATO country, then we have WW3. They are losing against Ukraine, how are they going to win with the entirety of Europe and North America?

  7. #22607
    Immortal hellhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    They attack any NATO country, then we have WW3. They are losing against Ukraine, how are they going to win with the entirety of Europe and North America?
    Where did I say they would attack a NATO country?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    NATO expansion isn't the US' fault.
    That aside, is this an argument against US/EU involvement?
    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation, and weakened the EU because they knew that they were dependent on Russian energy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It's a "I'm resentment poisoned due to the fact that my country's persistently shitty and corrupt government is shitty and corrupt so I cope with that resentment by embracing batshit conspiracy theories and involving myself in ponzi schemes" argument.
    What? Do you ever post any arguments or do you always use perverse ad hominems?

  8. #22608
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post

    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation, and weakened the EU because they knew that they were dependent on Russian energy.

    Nobody forced Russia to do anything, and the US didn't force Ukraine to do anything. Russia could have just not invaded Ukraine.

    They didn't invade because they were "scared," they didn't invade because the US "insulted their pride," they didn't invade because they "disagreed with NATO," they invaded purely because they wanted to continue to expand Russia's borders to exploit Ukraine's resources and thought they could scare other neighboring countries out of considering NATO membership. Any other reason is dressed up lies.

    Russia's reasons for invading had nothing to do with self-preservation. It's wholly and entirely based on a dictator's wishes of recapturing the lost, failed glory of the USSR.

    As for why the US and EU are helping out? Maybe because they learned from history that dictators with delusions of grandeur seeking to expand their borders in Europe aren't happy with appeasement and that the word of said dictators isn't worth dirt, and want to stop the situation from getting worse. Imagine if Hitler had been stopped at Poland.


    In this situation, Ukraine, the US and the EU are the good guys. And if you don't like that... tell Russia not to be so terrible. There's only one country invading a sovereign nation in this situation, and it's Russia, invading Ukraine.

    Hell, if Russia "had to invade Ukraine to show NATO they aren't to be trifled with" they failed in that pretty spectacularly. Their economy is crumbling and will continue to crumble, they're sending tens of thousands of their young men off to die pointlessly while millions more have fled Russia never to return, their war resources are shot to hell, and NATO basically gets to kill Russian soldiers by giving weapons to Ukraine without imperiling a single NATO member life.

    So either Russia is malicious but incompetent in their invasion, or they're blindingly stupid. I'm going to go with some measure of both, but you seem to want to paint these war crime committing invaders as "victims of the mean ol' US" somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    Where did I say they would attack a NATO country?
    Russia can't muster an invasion on a country they share an extensive land border with and have all but completely stalled out after 6 months of fighting, and at no point have their logistics, supply chains, equipment, manpower or morale seen anything resembling a positive improvement.

    Who says they can attack any other country? They gonna pull the troops and resources required to invade Finland and Sweden out of thin air?
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-08-28 at 07:49 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  9. #22609
    We posting fanfic wet dreams here now? Finland will bury Russia.

    Some people believe in Russian supremacy with such fervor and faith that they simply are beyond saving...And what comes to this fanatic side-choosing matter, Finland will embrace US any day over Russia. A world without Russia is immeasurably better than world without US.

    I'll pick the bickering of anti-US posters rather than not having basic necessities of plumbing in a russian world.

  10. #22610
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    I can't tell you who's winning, but I don't see Russia backing down.

    When they are done with Ukraine, invasion of Finland and Sweden is unfortunately looking probable if they haven't joined NATO until that point. Everyone will act shocked, again, and I will come again and say "I told you so". If they officially join NATO, Russia will undermine them in other ways.
    Russia can't beat Ukraine, but they will somehow beat Finland and Sweden?

    And whether they join NATO is not even relevant. Both Sweden and Finland are part of the EU mutual defence treaty, if Russia attacks them the EU (And UK) fill give them full active military support. Then Russia can chose to let the EU (and UK) shoot at them for free, or shoot back and NATO gets triggered anyway.

    There is no world in which Russia attacks Finland or Sweden and doesn't get humiliatingly defeated. Again.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #22611
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    I can't tell you who's winning, but I don't see Russia backing down.

    When they are done with Ukraine, invasion of Finland and Sweden is unfortunately looking probable if they haven't joined NATO until that point. Everyone will act shocked, again, and I will come again and say "I told you so". If they officially join NATO, Russia will undermine them in other ways.
    Russia is welcome to try. It's about time we retake Karelia.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

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  12. #22612
    Putin must have died, haven't seen or heard from him in a long while.
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  13. #22613
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nobody forced Russia to do anything, and the US didn't force Ukraine to do anything. Russia could have just not invaded Ukraine.

    They didn't invade because they were "scared," they didn't invade because the US "insulted their pride," they didn't invade because they "disagreed with NATO," they invaded purely because they wanted to continue to expand Russia's borders to exploit Ukraine's resources and thought they could scare other neighboring countries out of considering NATO membership. Any other reason is dressed up lies.

    Russia's reasons for invading had nothing to do with self-preservation. It's wholly and entirely based on a dictator's wishes of recapturing the lost, failed glory of the USSR.

    As for why the US and EU are helping out? Maybe because they learned from history that dictators with delusions of grandeur seeking to expand their borders in Europe aren't happy with appeasement and that the word of said dictators isn't worth dirt, and want to stop the situation from getting worse. Imagine if Hitler had been stopped at Poland.


    In this situation, Ukraine, the US and the EU are the good guys. And if you don't like that... tell Russia not to be so terrible. There's only one country invading a sovereign nation in this situation, and it's Russia, invading Ukraine.

    Hell, if Russia "had to invade Ukraine to show NATO they aren't to be trifled with" they failed in that pretty spectacularly. Their economy is crumbling and will continue to crumble, they're sending tens of thousands of their young men off to die pointlessly while millions more have fled Russia never to return, their war resources are shot to hell, and NATO basically gets to kill Russian soldiers by giving weapons to Ukraine without imperiling a single NATO member life.

    So either Russia is malicious but incompetent in their invasion, or they're blindingly stupid. I'm going to go with some measure of both, but you seem to want to paint these war crime committing invaders as "victims of the mean ol' US" somehow.



    Russia can't muster an invasion on a country they share an extensive land border with and have all but completely stalled out after 6 months of fighting, and at no point have their logistics, supply chains, equipment, manpower or morale seen anything resembling a positive improvement.

    Who says they can attack any other country? They gonna pull the troops and resources required to invade Finland and Sweden out of thin air?
    Nah, the EU is the good guy, the US ? Not so much.

  14. #22614
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation, and weakened the EU because they knew that they were dependent on Russian energy.
    Look at it this way, if Trump somehow regains the Presidency you can kiss NATO goodbye.

  15. #22615
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Look at it this way, if Trump somehow regains the Presidency you can kiss NATO goodbye.
    It seems Trump wants to do that, sure, but I doubt it's going to happen. And even if US were to leave NATO, I'd imagine rest of it's members would carry on in some form or another. And as far as Russia is concerned, it ought to be more than enough.

    And who knows, perhaps NATO might become more appealing to others without US involvement? Especially if Trump becomes the president again.
    Last edited by Santti; 2022-08-28 at 09:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  16. #22616
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Nah, the EU is the good guy, the US ? Not so much.
    The US isn't continuing to pay Russia billions of dollars to buy energy they should have weaned themselves off of back when Russia started its expansionary crusade 8 years ago and has by far been the largest provider of military aide to Ukraine.

    So slow your roll there.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #22617
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The US isn't continuing to pay Russia billions of dollars to buy energy they should have weaned themselves off of back when Russia started its expansionary crusade 8 years ago and has by far been the largest provider of military aide to Ukraine.

    So slow your roll there.
    Yes, the US prefers to destroy its own environment to get its energy from.

    By putting pressure on Russia through NATO, the US has successfully weakened its ally, sorry its vassal, the UE.

  18. #22618
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    The US wants to enforce NATO expansionism because it serves their purpose geopolitically. With a single stroke, they managed to force Russia to invade a brotherly nation, and weakened the EU because they knew that they were dependent on Russian energy.
    How in the blue hell did they force Russia to want to genocide a neighboring country? I'd love to hear the, what I'm sure is, totally not insane ramblings to explain that.

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  19. #22619
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    Where did I say they would attack a NATO country?
    Wtf? Finland and Sweden are joining NATO. It has already been approved, right now it is just semantics.

  20. #22620
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Putin must have died, haven't seen or heard from him in a long while.
    Nah, he's still signing stuff...which could obviously be a forgery. It would certainly be in the best interest of the russians to keep it quiet until the power struggle is done, but after Stalin it took 4 years and russia doesn't have that time in Ukraine.

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