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  1. #21
    Great decision. Ulduar is the best WoW raid and it deserves this treatment. And I hope they just extend to duration of this tier and shorten 3.3 instead because TotC was just terrible.
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  2. #22
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    No. It's a solution in search for a problem that doesn't exist. Make Ulduar last for 6+ months. That's it. Problem solved. You run Ulduar weekly for 6 months, and the rose colored classes will come off about it being the best raid ever.

    Plenty of people still ran Naxx and Ulduar weekly on alts. They will even more now since people can't spam LFG for badges for badge gear.
    You are wrong.

    it is not just about how long it lasts, but how relevant it is. In BC we had the best raiding system ever because you could use items for SSC in SWP... progressing through BT you´d still need items from TK.. etc. From WotLK, we had the big failure where new raids override old content loot.

    This change means that you can still fish up some Ulduar Hard Modes loot to progress in ICC! thus making 3 raids somehow relevant at once.
    Without this, people in ICC would not bother wiht anything else than ICC. Now there´s a bit higher chance that some people might go back to fish up some ring or whatever.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    This change means that you can still fish up some Ulduar Hard Modes loot to progress in ICC! thus making 3 raids somehow relevant at once.
    Without this, people in ICC would not bother wiht anything else than ICC. Now there´s a bit higher chance that some people might go back to fish up some ring or whatever.
    That would be somewhat true if they kept the original time table, but with an increase to Ulduars (and probably TotGCs) timeframe people will already have everything they want from Ulduar when ICC hits. Loot is much more accessible in WotlK than before.

    Instead of reducing TotGCs itemlevel they should have simply increased Ulduars itemlevel when the new raid drops, then you have an actual reason to return there.

  4. #24
    Ulduar will be a borefest like any other raids after a while.

  5. #25
    Anything that lowers the ilvl inflation is good. Blizzard actually recognized somehow that it was a retarded design in the interview, even though they still do it live.

    Too bad they still undermine their own points by giving raid loot away and keeping the ICC buff.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    1. Have badges from completing quests, epics equipped on ding 80 from doing nothing? Exactly what is the purpose of this? Their reasoning seems entirely illogical and nonsensical.
    I don't see what is wrong with encouraging people to quest, complete capstone questchains and give them some endgame rewards.
    It's not like what you can buy with emblem of heroism is a gamebreaker somehow in the earlier stages of Wotlk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    8. As a result ICC becomes harder. LK was never killed pre-nerf (5% raidwide buff active), and many guilds didn't even beat it on HC25man with the 30% buff. Forget ilvl, Blizzard literally scaled up everyones damage/health/healing by 30% within ICC over time, if they wanted to make it harder then just hold off on that for longer? ICC was never easy to begin with anyway, some guilds wiped 50-100x before killing Muru, ICC is way tougher than Sunwell and doesn't need to be harder.
    Easy answer: Hardmodes aren't for people that wipe 50+ times on M'uru, especially not LK heroic.

    For that audience, Normal mode exists, if those people have an issue with them not being able to clear content, then they're not going to clear because of their own inability and frankly, can only blame Wotlk design of multiple difficulties.

    Remember, ICC is only harder when you're still running around in TotC gear, once you're decked out in Normal ICC loot, it's the same.

    And i take a wild guess that those people you're talking about aren't going to sit in front of LK HC in week 2 either way.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-08-29 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #27
    ilvl squish of last tier as well as raid difficulty reduced simply means go play another game.

    Private servers that buff last tier of raiding are to this day active. No last raid tier that becomes easier has ever rewarded those who put in the enormous amount of effort and time needed to keep a guild going.

  8. #28
    Great idea imho.
    Me and my boys really wanted something like this.
    Personally i did original Ulduar and then a few times on private servers and finally i did it twice on timewalking (which was absolutely joke with retail classes kits)... and still want more.
    Last edited by Mendzia; 2022-08-29 at 11:30 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    People did complain about Ulduar not lasting long enough.
    Adding a month or two to T8 would suffice.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Adding a month or two to T8 would suffice.
    The major mistake was made 14 years ago by having Ulduar in 3.2 instead of 3.3. If Ulduar and TotC would switch places, everything would feel way more balanced and harmonic imho.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  11. #31
    It's a terrible change, being proposed by someone that is calling for "harder" raids despite the fact they personally got stuck in T5 content and haven't progressed. How this makes sense I don't know. Maybe they should hire me as a PVP advisor, I haven't done any PVP since vanilla but that's fine right?

    WOTLK raiding was super accessible, especially with all the difficulty combinations players USED to have. It's concerning, but not surprising that Blizzard somehow don't understand this. Instead we get bad players who don't really raid, vouching for what raiders want.

    It's all good though, not like their changes so far screw over 10 man guilds who will only be able to do one raid per week unless they PUG....

    The only change they should be considering is making the T9 phase shorter. I'm already dubious about them buffing raids as the average player is still not very good, multiple guilds on Pyrewood Village managed to get stuck in Molten Core in Classic and a load of guilds fell apart in Classic T5 raids.

    When ICC was retail LOADS of players cried about the raid being too hard, then this changed with the buff AND people getting carried to gear - If you trawl through retail WOTLK threads I bet you can find complaints about the difficulty that hilariously change to "this game is easy" once players outgeared the content and had a buff.

    I don't know why the old expansions attract so many people that are convinced they are great at the game without anything to support it. Even people... playing elsewhere are opting to play the game in one of it's simplest forms, to then weirdly buff boss damage and figure this makes them a good player. Even though they would be a Mythic raider if they could handle a proper challenge. Nothing wrong with liking older content, please just don't make it something it isn't.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Adding a month or two to T8 would suffice.
    This. Make it even 3 months, there is no reason to be faffing around to this extend, especially on things that will have a ripple effect on the whole game.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Brostin View Post
    multiple guilds on Pyrewood Village managed to get stuck in Molten Core in Classic and a load of guilds fell apart in Classic T5 raids.
    And all of this was way below SWP in terms of difficulty and still a massive load of players managed to clear it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brostin View Post
    I'm already dubious about them buffing raids as the average player is still not very good
    That "buff" is effectively gone once you're decked out in ICC gear, which should happen relatively fast if you do both 10 and 25 man.

    All this is doing to ICC is that it's a bit harder during the first week(s), even there it will mostly affect Heroic progression because the leap from 245 to 277 is quite huge.
    And the people you're worrying about are certainly not the audience for Heroic ICC.


    That's just the plain reality, if you are that bad of a player that 13 Ilvl are the reason why you are not killing anything before LK in ICC Normal, then you'll get filtered in Ulduar Normal already.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2022-08-29 at 01:37 PM.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans OnlineSamantha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And all of this was way below SWP in terms of difficulty and still a massive load of players managed to clear it.

    That "buff" is effectively gone once you're decked out in ICC gear, which should happen relatively fast if you do both 10 and 25 man.

    All this is doing to ICC is that it's a bit harder during the first week(s), even there it will mostly affect Heroic progression because the leap from 245 to 277 is quite huge.
    And the people you're worrying about are certainly not the audience for Heroic ICC.

    That's just the plain reality, if you are that bad of a player that 13 Ilvl are the reason why you are not killing anything before LK in ICC Normal, then you'll get filtered in Ulduar Normal already.
    If you would read the original blue post, you would see that they are talking about nerfing the item level of both ToC and ICC.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Anything that lowers the ilvl inflation is good. Blizzard actually recognized somehow that it was a retarded design in the interview, even though they still do it live.

    Too bad they still undermine their own points by giving raid loot away and keeping the ICC buff.
    Difference is that secondary stats don't scale even nearly as hard on live as they did back in Wrath. Most (all?) agility classes could pretty easily become crit capped, which probably isn't even a thing anymore, even if it was reachable.

    But yes they also do scale ilvls too hard meaning previous raids become instantly pointless, but that's by design on live.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And all of this was way below SWP in terms of difficulty and still a massive load of players managed to clear it.

    That "buff" is effectively gone once you're decked out in ICC gear, which should happen relatively fast if you do both 10 and 25 man.

    All this is doing to ICC is that it's a bit harder during the first week(s), even there it will mostly affect Heroic progression because the leap from 245 to 277 is quite huge.
    And the people you're worrying about are certainly not the audience for Heroic ICC.

    That's just the plain reality, if you are that bad of a player that 13 Ilvl are the reason why you are not killing anything before LK in ICC Normal, then you'll get filtered in Ulduar Normal already.
    Nope, what it's doing is reducing the stat bloat, as ToC10N and everything thereafter would be reduced by 13 ilvls. It has two effects: Ulduar stays relevant longer, and stat bloat is reduced for the later part of the expansion. Shadowmourne would be ilvl 271 for example (supposedly). It will also make ToC and ICC (and RS) harder if they don't nerf the raids to compensate. That increase in difficulty won't be significant enough to mean anything though.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Nope, what it's doing is reducing the stat bloat, as ToC10N and everything thereafter would be reduced by 13 ilvls. It has two effects: Ulduar stays relevant longer, and stat bloat is reduced for the later part of the expansion. Shadowmourne would be ilvl 271 for example (supposedly). It will also make ToC and ICC (and RS) harder if they don't nerf the raids to compensate. That increase in difficulty won't be significant enough to mean anything though.
    Quote Originally Posted by OnlineSamantha View Post
    If you would read the original blue post, you would see that they are talking about nerfing the item level of both ToC and ICC.
    Yeah, my bad.

    But i still hold the view that the 13 Ilvl are not going to make a massive difference when it comes to Normal raids, the first four bosses in ICC are a complete pushover and from there you can easily cherrypick the easier bosses to gear up.

  17. #37
    Wouldn't the easier route to be just let the Ulduar phase last longer?

    Changing ToTC gear is going to require a retune.

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans Tuor's Avatar
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    My feeling is that they making too much changes already...

    Anyway, they can't squish the gear itmlv without nerfing ICC and ToC, lets see what comes on ptr when these patches launch.

  19. #39
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Is it a better gaming experience to

    1. Have badges from completing quests, epics equipped on ding 80 from doing nothing? Exactly what is the purpose of this? Their reasoning seems entirely illogical and nonsensical.

    2. Not be able to choose male/female because of political ideology being hamfisted into the game?

    3. Not have dungeon finder but now being forced to use the new and still useless LFG tool in order to be able to talk/post in LFG chat? Automatically removed if you have 5 in group? Oh even better.

    4. Have to choose between normal/heroic for TOTC to make Ulduar Hardmode loot more relevant/necessary to progress TOTGC and to avoid "burnout" from 4 potential lockouts.

    5. Also nerf TOTC loot to keep people in Ulduar longer, a gigantic grind of a raid people will have been doing for many months already.

    6. 5+6 Farming 2 raid tiers simultaneously, including Ulduar which by itself takes longer than 4 lockouts of TOTGC, but we're avoiding burnout right?

    7. Killing the dreams of scaling classes (Aka Fire Mage, Combat Rogue, Fury Warrior etc) with the lower ilvl cap from the T9 squish, completely changing the class progression of the expansion as it was in 2010.

    8. As a result ICC becomes harder. LK was never killed pre-nerf (5% raidwide buff active), and many guilds didn't even beat it on HC25man with the 30% buff. Forget ilvl, Blizzard literally scaled up everyones damage/health/healing by 30% within ICC over time, if they wanted to make it harder then just hold off on that for longer? ICC was never easy to begin with anyway, some guilds wiped 50-100x before killing Muru, ICC is way tougher than Sunwell and doesn't need to be harder.

    9. Rocket boots working in arena because "nostalgia", despite it being broken unbalanced.

    10. Whole raid can reset cooldowns after 30 seconds in combat with a boss, which can still be abused after fixes. QOL changes are fun, but don't let them be abused, it took all of a day for speedrunners to find how to exploit them after the "fix".

    "Objectively" better arguments are dumb, partly because this topic is entirely within the realm of subjectivity and mostly because there is no consistency or logic in a lot of the changes. The amount of thinking and consideration that has been put into these changes has about the same depth as a puddle of water. The person who came up with the T9 idea on the community council was someone with next to no raiding experience in TBC at all and Blizzard fully went in an entertained the idea of turning the expansion upside down for a solution that is as easy as "just let Ulduar be current for longer"..
    1. Is this actually going in? That would be strange

    2. This is a joke, right?

    3. This one I agree, if the auto finder was fixed to your own realm only it would be a lot more popular

    4. ToTC was called out back then for being boring and a filler raid tier, I wasn't impressed by it back then and I raided it only because it had (too good) loot, I remember distinctly that raidmembers were complaining that it invalidated Ulduar gear too soon

    5. Ulduar was cut too short, I myself and many others experienced that patch as being extraordinarily short, not many people got to clear it, ToTC gear was just that good

    6. Lockout farming for months on end is part of the game, if anything, it'll reduce the end patch lengt of time (remember farming ICC for over a year? I do)

    7. Class scale being killed is kind of sad, agreed, however the extreme growth in ilvl is the reason wow got into trouble multiple times in regards to balance and raid/dungeon difficulty, if anything the devs should fix the classes that depend on it too much while keeping wild ilvl growth in check.

    8. ICC being harder is a good thing, that raid was way too top heavy and light at the bottom for difficulty, the first bosses were really easy in comparison because ToTC gave out too good gear.

    9. Don't play arena pvp, won't comment.

    10. Exploits will always happen, remember the saronite bombs for rogues?

    Honestly I do not agree with all of the changes, but I don't agree with the no changes crew either. Ulduar was cut short imo, ToTC lasted too long sd had too good gear and ICC lasted too long also, same changes would be nice but everyone and they're mom has a different idea of what would be the ideal WotLK experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Seems like this pisses off the #NoChanges crowd so that means that it's 100% the best way forward.
    Yes, let's antagonize an entire group of players because you disagree. Slow clap for this little guy, you really showed 'm this time.

    If we didn't have an adamant 'no changes' group, you can bet your ass that blizz would've overmonetized the fuck out of classic as if it where retail, and people like you would've simped for it.

    I may not agree with the no changes crowd every time, but they are an increadibly important part of why classic is here and how it's being made. If you don't like them or what the have to say, then you should stick to retail.
    Last edited by bloodkin; 2022-08-29 at 02:08 PM.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    Ulduar will be a borefest like any other raids after a while.
    Yep, Ulduar gets really glorified by people who havent done it for 14 years. There is a lot of annoying trash in Ulduar. Remember Vezax hardmode? Ah waiting for 5 minutes is so much fun. Algalon randomly oneshotting your tanks is also always nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Anything that lowers the ilvl inflation is good. Blizzard actually recognized somehow that it was a retarded design in the interview, even though they still do it live.

    Too bad they still undermine their own points by giving raid loot away and keeping the ICC buff.
    The itemlevel inflation is what makes wotlk one of the best expansion. If you want a "balanced" game where you have 17% crit and die of boredom you can play retail.
    But i do agree that they should get rid of the ICC buff. It makes you feel weak when you are not in ICC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Seems like this pisses off the #NoChanges crowd so that means that it's 100% the best way forward.
    Ah, yes. Liking something because it pisses people off. The mature way of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Is it a better gaming experience to
    Everything said here was true and real. People want wrath. Stop changing things that dont need changing. Nobody cares what Blizzards "vision" of wrath was 15 years ago. It seems they accidentally made one of the best expansions. If they followed their vision wrath would probably be worse.

    Small quality of life changes are ok. Make mounts and achievements accountbound, change the badge system so there are only 2 badges. But dont try to rebalance the game.

    The LFG change is mind-boggling. Now nobody is doing low level dungeons while leveling, great change Blizzard. All that this does is that you have to fly to every dungeon so you spend 10 minutes to get to a dungeon that takes 5 minutes. Also this results in people doing less dungeons because sometimes you just cant be bothered building a group and travel to that dungeon just to get 3 badges. Just give us the LFG tool, make it only server wide, change the rules about kicking people, gg.

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