[Megathread] Star Citizen

[banmebaby]

Still don't see where's the issue. Changes during development are the norm. Whatever plans made in year X or Y can become irrelevant in year Z.

In the end If a game is not ready to release and it's studio has the option to devote more work towards it that's the best option.

Certainly much better than being forced to rush it (most certainly while inducing huge ammounts od crunch to it's developers) and release it unfinished and broken.

It does a disservice both to it's players and to the company/dev's.

First you ignore the point, now you try to downplay it, and to be fair, you never really see any issues when it comes down to CiG anyway. This isn’t just “changes during development”, its over 6 years of “it’s almost ready”, “it will be ready this year”, “it will be ready next year”, “just a little polish missing”, while launching promotional campaigns around it to boost up sales, that isn’t the “norm” anywhere.

… it’s crazy that people like you are always trying to undermine people’s opinions for their supposed lack of knowledge about the project, while at the same time stating that whatever CiG says about it is completely irrelevant as soon as it becomes convenient.

In the end it's the companies money, so as long as they abide by the lawful terms agreed they can use it as they please to develop their games as they wish

This was never about what the company is legally allowed to do either.

If CIG was up front about what was going on though, they likely wouldn't be getting as much money would they?

[MrAnderson]

First you ignore the point, now you try to downplay it, and to be fair, you never really see any issues when it comes down to CiG anyway. This isn’t just “changes during development”, its over 6 years of “it’s almost ready”, “it will be ready this year”, “it will be ready next year”, “just a little polish missing”, while launching promotional campaigns around it to boost up sales, that isn’t the “norm” anywhere.

… it’s crazy that people like you are always trying to undermine people’s opinions for their supposed lack of knowledge about the project, while at the same time stating that whatever CiG says about it is completely irrelevant as soon as it becomes convenient.

Continuous player and funding growth can't exist on a vacuum, crowdfunding projects that fail to present results don't last long in the graces of their backers.

Which is why the majority of those who complain or have a problem with how the company takes their time developing Squadron 42 are not even backers, players or supports of the project at all hence completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Because if they were, CIG wouldn't be seeing the continuous record numbers of player engagement and funding like they do.

Which is one of the predicates of Crowdfunded focused games. Projects are born and live by it's crowd, it's community.

Which can only be sustained by constant delivery with demonstration of progress year after year which CIG has been doing since inception despite what outsiders like to preach.

Something something "Dogs bark, but the caravan keeps on."

[Kyanion]

Doesn't really matter how a company gets their money though.

Bull. Shit. A crowdfunded game is held to different standards than a company funding their own game.

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It does a disservice to it's players and backers by lying about what is going on. If CIG was up front about what was going on though, they likely wouldn't be getting as much money would they?

It may do a disservice to the backers by lying but it does them a great service of generating more money while keeping things as vague as possible. CIG has a proven track record of lies from the company, scroll up a few posts and you'll see direct quotes by them over and over.

If CIG was upfront about the game not being ready, SQ42 not in greybox and not even close to ready and the game being years from completion. Do you think they'd generate as much money? Really? Do you REALLY fucking think that? Because we both know the answer is they'd be getting far less money and far more scorn for all the missed deadlines and previous lies.

If CIG was up front about what was going on though, they likely wouldn't be getting as much money would they?

This has been one of the few correct things you've ever said about CIG when it comes to their constant lies and perpetual alpha though. So bravo.

[Orange Joe]

Bull. Shit. A crowdfunded game is held to different standards than a company funding their own game.

it is? where is this written in law?

[Kyanion]

it is? where is this written in law?

It isn't the point I'm trying to make. Those two have gone out of their way over the years to defend the things this company does because they are crowdfunded. It was a shield to protect them from games that are developed by established countries. It was a shield and nothing more.

And to be fair there are some flimsy things in place to prevent fraud with crowdfunding but you have to do so laughable little it is easy to get around. There are some cases where companies have been sued over crowdfunded scams, so in that regard there are different standards than typical companies making a game with their own money. So technically I'm correct in my statement as well but as I said that isn't the point I'm making here.

And furthermore different standards could be the standards the backers themselves place on a company for backing the game in the first place. They expect the company to deliver what is promised. That does not mean there is anything enforceable being discussed, just that a backer would hold CIG to a different standard than say a company that produces their own game. If you back a lot of money wouldn't you expect the company to uphold their end of the promise? No? Then why would you back it in the first place. That is like getting upset when a game that was being developed by a company you have no financial stake in cancels a game you were looking forward to.

[MrAnderson]

And for the ones stating that "nothing is shown of Squadron 42" and there's no work being done I leave some footage:

Almost 2 hours of footage featuring gameplay demonstrations and motion capture work:


Side by Side showcase of the iteration along the years:


Cinematic Teasers and discussion/showcase of areas of the game:





Featured actors:


Tech demo's:



ISC just focused about SQ42:


There's probably more featured in the monthly reports but this will do.

[Kyanion]

And for the ones stating that "nothing is shown of Squadron 42" and there's no work being done I leave some footage:

Let's see, 2019, 2017-2020, 2018 teaser, 2019 teaser, ship from 2016, 2020 vid, 2019 vid, 2020, 2018 and a 2018 vid. So nothing from 2021-2022? Some of this is just talking about sq42 and not much as far as footage goes. Call me unimpressed if this is all you can dig up about something that was in greybox 6 years ago man. Needs more polish amirite?

Didn't they basically go silent on SQ42 as far as vids go?

[MrAnderson]

It may do a disservice to the backers by lying but it does them a great service of generating more money while keeping things as vague as possible. CIG has a proven track record of lies from the company, scroll up a few posts and you'll see direct quotes by them over and over.

If CIG was upfront about the game not being ready, SQ42 not in greybox and not even close to ready and the game being years from completion. Do you think they'd generate as much money? Really? Do you REALLY fucking think that? Because we both know the answer is they'd be getting far less money and far more scorn for all the missed deadlines and previous lies.

In case you haven't noticed Chris Roberts around 2020 was asked: "When will Squadron 42 would be ready?"

And he said, and I quote:
"The best answer for your question is Squadron 42 will be done when it is done, and will not be released just to make a date but instead once all the tech and content is finished, polished and it plays great"

In full, Roberts said:

You're not really asking about what is being worked on Squadron 42, you really just want to know when it will be done. The best answer for your question is Squadron 42 will be done when it is done, and will not be released just to make a date but instead once all the tech and content is finished, polished and it plays great. I am not willing to compromise making a game I believe in with all my heart and soul, and even though everyone (including me) wants Squadron 42 sooner than later, it would be doing a huge disservice to everyone working really hard on the project and all of you that are looking forward to it to deliver something that isn't great.

The new roadmap will show how we are doing towards that goal and as we get closer to the end it will be more accurate but it will never be a perfect crystal ball of the future as there is always a certain amount of unpredictability in game development, especially when the game is hugely ambitious and has a very high quality bar; Red Dead Redemption 2, Last of US 2 and now Cyberpunk have all taken a lot longer than originally communicated and those projects didn't even announce a release date until very deep into their production, when most of their tech had been resolved.

We still have a ways to go before we are in Beta, but everyone on Squadron 42 is working very hard to deliver something great.

Do you know what happened with funding in 2020? Not only did funding didn't tanked but they broke their funding record in 2020 by +30$Million more than the previous year.

That's a 65% increase in growing from 2019.

In 2021 they grew 10% more with +10$M million more and are currently on track to break their funding record again.

So, yeah, you're assumption is dead wrong. As per usual.

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Didn't they basically go silent on SQ42 as far as vids go?

They showcase snippets of footage on the Monthly Reports here and there. Probably find those featured on the Youtubers page that make video-reports of development.

[Kyanion]

Do you know what happened with funding in 2020? Not only did funding didn't tanked but they broke their funding record in 2020 by +30$Million more than the previous year.

That's a 65% increase in growing from 2019.

In 2021 they grew 10% more with +10$M million more and are currently on track to break their funding record again.

So, yeah, you're assumption is dead wrong. As per usual.

Jesus Christ beyond you're "I wish I worked for CIG" stoogelike attitude you just ignore what was said to try and twist it into a narrative. Do you think what he said in 2020 invalidates all the lies he spewed the years prior? NO. But that's okay, you justify it by saying 'they made more money' as if that makes everything they've done prior better. I'm really happy you think playing a game made by such dishonest people is okay, I'm sure CR is laughing all the way to the bank which he's putting into his mansion. Congrats, you are enriching people who want to draw this out as long as possible to wring as much money as they can out of you. You deserve a medal for your sacrifice to the cause.

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They showcase snippets of footage on the Monthly Reports here and there. Probably find those featured on the Youtubers page that make video-reports of development.

Ah yes, snippets of footage. Really shows the polish doesn't it? Really shows that all the lies they were making in 2016-2020 were worth it huh?

[Golgot]

On topic, scam citizen has internal employee turmoil on the UK office I hear as a couple of Scrum masters and product owners are leaving the company due to burnout with the most affected project being Squadron hence the hush hush of things.

I did mention this a few pages back but was simply ignored... What would I know though.....

I thought this was intriguing

Will be interesting to see if any of the more visible names slip away. Nathan Dearsley, Rich Tyrer etc. (Can't imagine anyone higher up is going to walk away from the banquet though).

[Cloverfield]

And for the ones stating that "nothing is shown of Squadron 42" and there's no work being done I leave some footage:

Almost 2 hours of footage featuring gameplay demonstrations and motion capture work:

Side by Side showcase of the iteration along the years:

There's probably more featured in the monthly reports but this will do.

That does not really mean much I am afraid. For exemple, Theranos, whose CEO and COO have been found guilty of fraud also showed their "progress" much in the same way as CIG shows "progress" for SQ42 with the videos you linked.







https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001...55003869574012

Etc

Much like SQ42, pretty sure the Theranos research teams and labs were "working" on the Best Damned Blood Test System Ever.

Much like SQ42 though, the product was never released. In the case of SQ42, it is 10+ years and counting. For Theranos, their "work" also lasted over a decade to only end up with a very sub par product, and its leadership sentenced for fraud:



So as you can see, short of getting SQ42 actually released, and especially given the outrageous delays by CIG so far, those videos you linked do not mean much.

If you are really interested in the misrepresentation and incompetence by CIG (including potential fraud) showed with regards to SQ42 here is a couple of videos that actually inform of the situation:

The below video is from 2018... let that sink in... and obviously needs an update to add the non release of a beta in Q2 2020, its delay to Q3 2020 also missed, and the final "done when it´s done" by Chris Roberts 2 years ago:



Or this one from one of SC´s formerly more ardent backers:

[Otaka]

Let's see, 2019, 2017-2020, 2018 teaser, 2019 teaser, ship from 2016, 2020 vid, 2019 vid, 2020, 2018 and a 2018 vid. So nothing from 2021-2022? Some of this is just talking about sq42 and not much as far as footage goes. Call me unimpressed if this is all you can dig up about something that was in greybox 6 years ago man. Needs more polish amirite?

Didn't they basically go silent on SQ42 as far as vids go?

This footage shown is way more than any other game in existence has shown pre-release... all others use trailers and teasers with practically the same footage multiple times and only sometimes add a few seconds here and there. Then they have vlogs talking about it while the same footage is shown in the background. (SQ42 is no exception, but they have way more footage to even show... and more appear overtime)

Only rarely do other major games show development footage.... pre-release that is. It doesnt count if its shown several years later when the game is basically history already.

No new footage in 2021-2022? so needy.. why do you want more? GTA 6 for example has been in development for years and we have 0 seconds of footage about it. (almost as many years as SQ42, considering GTA 5 came out in 2013)
Also why dont you look at SC footage instead? dont forget, its literally the same universe and same assets... so everything you can see in SC is gonna be in SQ42 to some extent, especially ship related.

[Ghost of Cow]

This footage shown is way more than any other game in existence has shown pre-release... all others use trailers and teasers with practically the same footage multiple times and only sometimes add a few seconds here and there. Then they have vlogs talking about it while the same footage is shown in the background. (SQ42 is no exception, but they have way more footage to even show... and more appear overtime)

Only rarely do other major games show development footage.... pre-release that is. It doesnt count if its shown several years later when the game is basically history already.

No new footage in 2021-2022? so needy.. why do you want more? GTA 6 for example has been in development for years and we have 0 seconds of footage about it. (almost as many years as SQ42, considering GTA 5 came out in 2013)
Also why dont you look at SC footage instead? dont forget, its literally the same universe and same assets... so everything you can see in SC is gonna be in SQ42 to some extent, especially ship related.

And once again it needs pointing out that no matter how long GTA6 is taking, they're not telling people, "No no, it's almost done, right around the corner, we're almost there, so give us more money."

[Otaka]

That does not really mean much I am afraid. For exemple, Theranos, whose CEO and COO have been found guilty of fraud after more than a decade with its promised product still not released, also showed their "progress" much in the same way as CIG hypes up SQ42 with the videos you linked:



Etc

Much like SQ42, pretty sure the Theranos research teams and labs were "working" on the Best Damned Blood Test System Ever.

Much like SQ42 though, the product was never released. In the case of SQ42, it is 10+ years and counting. For Theranos, their "work" also lasted over a decade to only end up with no real products, and its leadership sentenced for fraud.


So as you can see, short of getting SQ42 actually released, and especially given the outrageous delays by CIG so far, those videos you linked do not mean much.

If you are really interested in the misrepresentation and incompetence by CIG (including potential fraud) showed with regards to SQ42 here is a couple of videos that actually inform of the situation:

The below video is from 2018... let that sink in... and obviously needs an update to add the non release of a beta in Q2 2020, its delay to Q3 2020 also missed, and the final "done when it´s done" by Chris Roberts 2 years ago:


Or this one from one of its formerly more ardent backers:

A blood test system is not even remotely comparable... a digital product can give demos and playable alphas to prove much better that they are working on it, they dont have to rely on reports and interviews.

Star Citizen alpha is playable... has been for years... and has been updated several times a year in many ways... we dont just know the game is being made, we can feel it when the game is updated.
SQ42 is merely a scripted singleplayer version of SC, so its pretty much the same... so you can follow SC and youre following SQ42 development at the sametime.

Theres a reason Gladius was updated to gold standard first... its the main fighter we use in SQ42. Theyve been updating other ships that will be heavily used in the campaign aswell.

[MrAnderson]

Jesus Christ beyond you're "I wish I worked for CIG" stoogelike attitude you just ignore what was said to try and twist it into a narrative. Do you think what he said in 2020 invalidates all the lies he spewed the years prior? NO. But that's okay, you justify it by saying 'they made more money' as if that makes everything they've done prior better. I'm really happy you think playing a game made by such dishonest people is okay, I'm sure CR is laughing all the way to the bank which he's putting into his mansion. Congrats, you are enriching people who want to draw this out as long as possible to wring as much money as they can out of you. You deserve a medal for your sacrifice to the cause.

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Ah yes, snippets of footage. Really shows the polish doesn't it? Really shows that all the lies they were making in 2016-2020 were worth it huh?

I ignore because it doesn't have a leg to stand on and it's irrelevant how much gamers will cry about "lies" or "broken promises" when talking about game development as history shows that uncertainty and change are part of game development, and that showcasing the process as early as crowdfunded studios do there's bound to be missed dates and changes along the way.

Some people know how to deal with that better than others. Due by knowledge and experience or just personality.

This is specially factual and easy observed in every crowdfunded mmo in development. All of them have their backers, they hyped ones, the doubters, the restless ones the angry gamers, the haters and their trolls that want to see the games fail.

In the end all that matters are the ones that actually add something to the project. Being it the dev's with their work or the backers through funding, playtesting and constructive feedback.

Gamers support and will play whatever games they enjoy. I'm sure you still cherish your moments in WoW despite all the stuff that Blizzard does/did.

After all it's still just video-games.

[banmebaby]

Continuous player and funding growth can't exist on a vacuum, crowdfunding projects that fail to present results don't last long in the graces of their backers.

No one said otherwise, it was never the point.

Which is why the majority of those who complain or have a problem with how the company takes their time developing Squadron 42 are not even backers, players or supports of the project at all hence completely irrelevant to the discussion.

An asspull born out of desperation to gatekeep criticism, it addresses fuck nothing of what’s actual being discussed. Everyone in here could be backer and you would still be making up excuses to dismiss their criticism.

Because if they were, CIG wouldn't be seeing the continuous record numbers of player engagement and funding like they do.

Which is one of the predicates of Crowdfunded focused games. Projects are born and live by it's crowd, it's community.

Which can only be sustained by constant delivery with demonstration of progress year after year which CIG has been doing since inception despite what outsiders like to preach.

Something something "Dogs bark, but the caravan keeps on."

Sigh…again, no one is denying the money they are making, and also, there are no caravans nor dogs here my dude, only a nice fucking yacht on an ocean full of whales.

In case you haven't noticed Chris Roberts around 2020 was asked: "When will Squadron 42 would be ready?"

And he said, and I quote:
"The best answer for your question is Squadron 42 will be done when it is done, and will not be released just to make a date but instead once all the tech and content is finished, polished and it plays great"

…. And suddenly what CiG said isn’t irrelevant anymore, just like that.

Out of all of these:

[IMG]

That’s the only one that is relevant, go figure

[MrAnderson]

That does not really mean much I am afraid. For exemple,

I'm sure you could find better examples than irrelevant cases and businesses that have nothing to do with gaming or it's industry.

There are plenty of cases of reported game development taking their time, delays, changes of scope, overbudgets etc along with past and present similar crowdunding cases.

[Otaka]

And once again it needs pointing out that no matter how long GTA6 is taking, they're not telling people, "No no, it's almost done, right around the corner, we're almost there, so give us more money."

And neither is CiG... whens the last time they said that? ive never heard them say "its almost done", perhaps about a single feature but not the entire game.
If youre talking about something that happened in 2014... then grow up, let it go... its not healthy to cling onto something for that long, they have clearly learned and improved, so should you.


And once again it needs pointing out that games we know are in development might not actually be... many games have been cancelled after their development was revealed. And many have been terrible even with long development times... thats what you get for not making sure its being developed properly.
Look at Anthem? Andromeda? Cyberpunk? Battlefield 42? all good and hyped... ended up not that great when we finally had them in our hands.
Trailers were lies and scripted... nothing like the finished product.

So no they arent telling us "its almost done give us more money", what they are telling us is "heres a finished product, an amazing high quality game! now pay full price" and the product is a massive turd. Marketing was lies... and you wouldnt know it since there was no alphas or betas to test.

[MrAnderson]

That’s the only one that is relevant, go figure

Indeed. As per normal, with the ever changing nature of game development, the most acurate and relevant information will always be the most recent one given by the guys in charge.

[Cloverfield]

I'm sure you could find better examples than irrelevant cases and businesses that have nothing to do with gaming or it's industry.

It seems the Theranos fraud case is actually very relevant for SQ42: Both showed and hyped tons of progress with a lot of videos and words, for very sub par or no results over a decade. Theranos fraud raised 1.4 billion, and CIG over a third of that so far and counting... It is actually uncanny how both companies have behaved so similarly in so many respects.

As an interesting complementary anecdote, their CEOs even took a very similar way to shape their public image and behaviour, trying to suggest in the viewer the same idea of tech breakthrough delivered by Apple/Steve Jobs. Although in the case of Ms Holmes and Chris Roberts, the parallels to Apple remain at the clothing level...