is M+ and Tier Forge killing raid ?

[Nymrohd]

Actually I'm not, I'm showing they don't reward the same so the fact they are different difficulty levels is irrelevant. Point flew way over your head. No need for the rest of the post.

Yet no one is making that comparison? People are comparing Heroic Raiding with M+ because the effort there is comparable and the rewards are very much unequal. There is no point in comparing M15s with Mythic raids. And even there your comparison is problematic for the simple reason that M+ remains spammable.

[Coldkil]

Actually I'm not, I'm showing they don't reward the same so the fact they are different difficulty levels is irrelevant. Point flew way over your head. No need for the rest of the post.

You get a 304 from doing a 15 (not even in time) from the weekly cache. You get a 304 by killing a generic Mythic raid boss. It's the same ilvl loot, just you're getting it from two wildly different (and one is menial compared to the other) activities. This point flew over your head, but hey, whatever floats your boat. And the point is not Mythic raids, it's everything else before that.

The issue is been recognized by Blizzard and mentioned by Ion himself in his last interview. The issue doesn't lie in M+ or Mythic raids (which basically work as they should while i'd say Mythic is not rewarding enough due to the hurdles to do it), but on the fact that the bulk of people that play the game have no reason to do raids when M+ is just a tremendously superior and way easier way to play the game and gear your character. This lead to the death of many many "mid-tier" raid guilds that are the lifeforce of everything else above that.

Anyway they also said they're looking for ways to make "raid gear more unique", which is stupid as fuck as a solution. I would just prefer that raids would become Mythic only and the casual progression crowd stays in M+ - would just make much more sense, especially now that most people who don't do Mythic also don't bther doing HC or whatever.

Before M+ raids were fine - but only because they were the only PvE progression system. Now that we have superior and more modern systems in place that work really well, i don't see any issue in making raids better suited for modern gameplay.

[enigma77]

Blizzard is going to double down on M+ rather than nerf it. Ion said in his interview with Max that they'd be figuring out how to award Mythic raid ilvl loot to high end M+ players.

Whatever high end means I don't know, but I'm guessing 20 +.

[Nymrohd]

Blizzard is going to double down on M+ rather than nerf it. Ion said in his interview with Max that they'd be figuring out how to award Mythic raid ilvl loot to high end M+ players.

Whatever high end means I don't know, but I'm guessing 20 +.

I'd reckon they could let you upgrade M+ gear all the way to Mythic ilvl with a combination system between Valor and Mythic+ Rating as we have now only scaling much higher.
But I am pretty sure they also intend to improve things for raiding. Bumping up Vault rewards for every level of raiding would definitely increase participation. While doing a single M 15 is certainly easier than doing a single Mythic raid boss, just PuGing one Heroic raid boss is probably just as easy. And heck, clearing the raid on Heroic with your guild is probably as quick if not quicker than doing multiple M+ runs with friends; on farm you can definitely clear the raid in a single 3hr session. And it would have positive effects for Normal and even LFR too.

Really at that point the outlier would be Mythic raiding itself. Which imo needs stronger cosmetics. Maybe the final boss should always drop double mounts? That way guild members will feel they will most likely get the mount instead of some being left out.

[talmir]

. It's the same as entering a raid and after a few wipes the boss despawns and leaves a chest with loot. With the cache you can get a full set of mythic ilvl tier set with the forge.

Tell me you dont play m+ without telling me you dont play m+

[Coldkil]

Tell me you dont play m+ without telling me you dont play m+

I play them. Because they're the better way to gear up my character. I just don't care about pushing because i have no interest in the high levels competition. Don't particularly like the format, due to IRL i have to pug most of them and i find myself wasting most of the time in spamming queues. I just like much more organized raiding - i log in, we group up and do stuff. Probably would enjoy more M+ if i had a similarly organized group (but again, i cannot commit to that).

Just looted today a 304 helm i promptly morphed into a 304 tier piece - what i'm saying is that it doesn't matter if i did a 22+++ or an over time 15, i would have got the same loot anyway.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Before M+ raids were fine - but only because they were the only PvE progression system. Now that we have superior and more modern systems in place that work really well, i don't see any issue in making raids better suited for modern gameplay.

Making mythic raids the only source of the best gear as you suggest isn't really making them more suited to modern gameplay lol. If anything the solution would be to make them award no gear or make them dramatically easier.

Personally, my guess is that mythic will just be a little easier and probably have some items that improve performance in the raid while m+ will get a rating requirement to upgrade all the way to max, pretty much giving everyone what they want.

(best option for middle tier guilds is probably just to make heroic a lot easier, especially the last bosses)

[Opeth69]

Blizzard is going to double down on M+ rather than nerf it. Ion said in his interview with Max that they'd be figuring out how to award Mythic raid ilvl loot to high end M+ players.

Whatever high end means I don't know, but I'm guessing 20 +.

Looking forward to the immense toxicity if they do this, especially if you have to time the 20 to get mythic level loot

[enigma77]

Looking forward to the immense toxicity if they do this, especially if you have to time the 20 to get mythic level loot

It's gonna be entertaining, for sure.

[bullseyed]

It's only "more fun" because it showers you in welfare inflated ilvl loot.

It would be amazing how much less fun M+ would become overnight if rewards matched the difficulty.

Yeah we saw when they moved the rewards from a +10 to a +15 that 95% of all M+ is just people playing for weekly cache items. Almost no one actually plays M+ for fun.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard is going to double down on M+ rather than nerf it. Ion said in his interview with Max that they'd be figuring out how to award Mythic raid ilvl loot to high end M+ players.

Whatever high end means I don't know, but I'm guessing 20 +.

It will likely mean some level of key will drop max ilvl loot with some other non-weekly-chest limiting factor. Like the first 20 you time in a week you get a 304 piece.

That's a future wishlist item though, no plans for "soon".

[enigma77]

Yeah we saw when they moved the rewards from a +10 to a +15 that 95% of all M+ is just people playing for weekly cache items. Almost no one actually plays M+ for fun.

- - - Updated - - -



It will likely mean some level of key will drop max ilvl loot with some other non-weekly-chest limiting factor. Like the first 20 you time in a week you get a 304 piece.

That's a future wishlist item though, no plans for "soon".

Honestly that's the worst thing they could possibly do. The game needs fewer weekly checklists and more gaming.

So yeah that's exactly what they'll do.

[Twdft]

The problem is if you make M+ gear too good heroic raid gearing is fucked, and if you make it not good enough it pressures key pushers into mythic raids.

Solution imo is to expand pvp ilvl system to raids and M+. A 298 item from M+ should be ilvl 311 inside dungeons etc.

[Coldkil]

Making mythic raids the only source of the best gear as you suggest isn't really making them more suited to modern gameplay lol. If anything the solution would be to make them award no gear or make them dramatically easier.

Personally, my guess is that mythic will just be a little easier and probably have some items that improve performance in the raid while m+ will get a rating requirement to upgrade all the way to max, pretty much giving everyone what they want.

(best option for middle tier guilds is probably just to make heroic a lot easier, especially the last bosses)

Mythic raids having the best rewards are not a problem at all. It's said rewards being scaled down when not in raid so they're not automagically better that deals with the issue (much like how PvP gear works).

In an utopic world M+ and raids are two completely balanced and possibly self-sustained progression systems, but in reality you cannot really make it happen for a plethora of reasons, first of all their completely different structure. If raid up to HC are paired with M+ up to 15s both in rewards (288 drops upgradable to 298 and 304 from the weekly cache) and lockouts are removed, you'd have solved half of the issue.

Mythic raids can drop 567 ilvl for what it matters, but then when outside the raid they're standard 298 pieces you can get through pugging HC or whatever other source. Also make the competitive M+ scene safe because you don't need specific drops from the raid that are not easily obtainable.

All in all, the worst offenders are trinkets and proc-based weapons, that defy the ilvl boundaries. These need to be designed in a way that they're clearly better in raids/M+ depending on where they drop, and there's no way around it. The problem has never been to be able to get a different pair of bracers that have slightly different secondary stats.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard is going to double down on M+ rather than nerf it. Ion said in his interview with Max that they'd be figuring out how to award Mythic raid ilvl loot to high end M+ players.

Whatever high end means I don't know, but I'm guessing 20 +.

What i got from the interview is actually the opposite - or better, they see that there's a problem right "in the middle" of progression. I don't know what he actually meant, and what they're going to do. But one thing i know, that stretching the gear to higher M+ isn't going to make people happy when they can have the same things now for less effort.

We'll see what they come out with. Hopefully i don't have to get two full sets of gear (minmaxing requires it, but you can do good enough if you don't plan to push as high as possible):

[paxen]

The problem is if you make M+ gear too good heroic raid gearing is fucked, and if you make it not good enough it pressures key pushers into mythic raids.

Both of those are actually true right now.

You could have m+ gear give extra ilv in M+ as you suggestl, or you could tie M+ ilvl even more to rating: vault just drops end of dungeon gear (and possibly bonus valor if you select an M+ reward), and you can upgrade it all the way to 311 if you have the rating for it. Upgrading to 311 would probably require at least 2500 rating, possibly more (the exact numbers need to be looked at).

[Paarthurnax]

In previous seasons the valor cap really halted how fast you could gear up outside of raids in a way "forcing" you to want to raid to fill in the gaps gear wise since you had no other real way to get upgrades quickly. With there being no cap in S4 it devalues heroic raids since most bosses on heroic only drop 291 gear that can't be upgraded any further where as an m+ piece can always eventually be pushed up to 298.

[Coldkil]

Really at that point the outlier would be Mythic raiding itself. Which imo needs stronger cosmetics. Maybe the final boss should always drop double mounts? That way guild members will feel they will most likely get the mount instead of some being left out.

Mythic raids due to their nature deserve to have a standalone treatment. And related rewards - just mounts/cosmetics while would solve the problem wouldn't appeal to many people.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah we saw when they moved the rewards from a +10 to a +15 that 95% of all M+ is just people playing for weekly cache items. Almost no one actually plays M+ for fun.

Don't know if this is sarcasm or not, but in the end data speaks for itself - around 30% of characters do a +10, around 25% complete the KSM and after that is just a huge dropoff because no rewards. Probably if rewardsweren't just portals but a sick xmog set more people would partecipate in it.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

In an utopic world M+ and raids are two completely balanced and possibly self-sustained progression systems, but in reality you cannot really make it happen for a plethora of reasons, first of all their completely different structure. If raid up to HC are paired with M+ up to 15s both in rewards (288 drops upgradable to 298 and 304 from the weekly cache) and lockouts are removed, you'd have solved half of the issue.

Hopefully i don't have to get two full sets of gear (minmaxing requires it, but you can do good enough if you don't plan to push as high as possible):

See this is actually why I think there are issues with siloing people into specific content. So like during patch 2 of SL with those gems, if you weren't raiding consistently, you were immensely far behind in terms of output, both by not having the gems and not having them leveled up. The result is that I had absolutely no interest in even joining a raid despite having the same ilvl because I couldn't realistically contribute. I could play perfectly with the same ilvl and get like a 50 parse just by not having gems lol. Compare this to BFA, where someone could get invited to a raid as long as their character was "caught-up" with gear and still contribute at a purple parse level.

You can apply all of this to pvp specific gear as well.

i actually think the game is better if you can just join any content you want at like 90% effectiveness as long as you are caught up with gear however you want. Like if someone is a gladiator, they should be able to walk into a raid and do well, same with the opposite. Otherwise you end up in a situation where people are basically playing 3 completely different games and can't cross pollinate at all, which imo is bad and makes it even harder to recruit.

(As a clarifying analogy, half the reason I have no interest in even going into arena is because I don't want to farm an entire set of verse gear - it's a really obnoxious barrier to play imo. Being 300ilvl should be enough on its own)

[enigma77]

The best solution is the one they abandoned. Make mythic + gear low drop low ilvl baseline items, but bring back Titanforging (only for Mythic+). A spammable game mode requires an rng gearing system. Higher keys drop more items, more chances for Titanforging procs. Mythic raids will continue to drop the highest possible items in the game, but Mythic + dungeon loot can upgrade to be just as high. Weekly Vault is guaranteed titanforged. People who love Mythic + can do it a lot and get upgrades for doing dungeons, people who hate it can just do keys for the Weekly Vault option(s). Bonus points: Let us upgrade items to Titanforged ilvl with Valor.

Problem fixed.

[tomten]

That's where your reasoning falls flat. You're comparing 15s with Mythic raids - which are on two completely different levels of difficulty, effort and commitment required, and so on. Just the fact people do this shows how they're fine with the easy gear M+ provides.

15s are at best comparable with hc raiding. And their loot makes it just useless for the most part. They're spammable and you don't even need to actually time them to get loot. It's the same as entering a raid and after a few wipes the boss despawns and leaves a chest with loot. With the cache you can get a full set of mythic ilvl tier set with the forge.

The. 311 ilvl gear only comes from last three bosses of mythic raids, something very few people actually reach. And as for trinkets, it's the exception as we went 3 seasons farming m+ for them; Blizzard has specifically buffed all of them so people actually went into fated raids to test them.

M+ are making all raids irrelevant because they're just a superior way to gear up your character. Most players look at the top playerbase as if that was an actual indicator of how the game is doing. Raids in general have an heavy logistics component that isn't rewarded at all.

As i said in another post: HC needs to be put at the sams level of 15s (not the opposite) and mythic gear should be higher ilvl not obtainable anywhere else but as PvP gear should have a lower ilvl (capped at 15s/HC) when you're not in the raid.

You're either lying or being very disingenuous to make your point. Neither format is a guaranteed drop, for anyone. Raid are also spammable.
If you're only means of 304 gear is vault, it will take you 16 weeks with perfect rng but as the vault shares loot table with every dungeon, you're looking at 1-2% drop chances. So double that to about 32 weeks for a full set of gear of welfare epics. For you're analogy to be correct, it would be as you're fighting mythic bosses, suddenly the boss despawns and you get a chest of lfr loot. Comparing that to 1/4 drop chances and its pretty equal all things considering.

For the m+ gear to go beyond 268 ilvl, you also need rating to upgrade it, for the highest upgrade you need 2k rating and to quote yourself, thats "something very few people actually reach"

As for trinkets, depending on spec of course, you've need raid trinkets since s1, phial being the outliner. They actually haven't buffed anything, thats just you lying to make your point. Aegis, sigil, ows etc etc, untouched and still superior to anything m+ offers.

M+ are not making anything irrelevant, not because they're NOT the superior way to gear up (that's only in your head) but because they dont interfere with each other in any way. Raiding is rewarded with faster and better gearing and the logistics component is overrated.

Heroic is very comparable to a +15 and mythic is higher ilvl?

The real question here is why you care so much about what others are able to get? Does it make you epics feel less worth? Is that it?

- - - Updated - - -

What i got from the interview is actually the opposite - or better, they see that there's a problem right "in the middle" of progression. I don't know what he actually meant, and what they're going to do. But one thing i know, that stretching the gear to higher M+ isn't going to make people happy when they can have the same things now for less effort.

Then you should watch the interview again, its pretty abundantly clear what they're saying and are gonna do.
m+ will reward gear after 15 and it will scale up to mythic ilvl gear.

[Coldkil]

Raid are also spammable.

No,. they're not. You get 1 chanche per week. Meanwhile if a M+ drops a trinket you can spam it until you drop it.