Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

How many Asians. Eskimos, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and Pakistanis applied to audition for roles in the series? How many were better suited for the role than the actors who will be playing them?

How many roles were called out specifically to find actors of specific skin tone? We wouldn't know that either.

[rogueMatthias]

Seen the first two episodes already at the premiere.
Hate to say it but a lot of the acting and writing is just really bad; the Elves are especially wooden and rarely deliver a believable sentence.
The Harfoots are every country cliche with the distractingly bad accents to match.
It improves in the second episode at least, so I'll stick around. The Dwarves have a lot more charisma & chemistry together and are some of the best scenes.

Galadriel is definitely the weakest link so far. The actress can overact standing staring into the distance and the character isnt particularly likeable in this.

5/10

[Adamas102]

The problem with this whole debate over "creative liberty" is that this is a two edged sword. If some other company down the road does a different adaptation of the second age and decides to portray dwarves and elves differently then who is "right"? How can they all be correct? The point of cannon is that it is supposed to be the definitive answer on these things so that everyone is following the same blueprint. To argue that in one version it is fine to have characters portrayed one way and then in a different adaptation have them portrayed a different way and both adaptations not being the same as the source material is problematic.

So you just don't understand the concept of adaptation at all, huh?

Canon is always the original source material and it doesn't change, even when we have multiple adaptations that deviate from that source material (like we have for LotR). This isn't problematic. No one is "right" or "wrong", they are just adaptations. The idea that they all have to be "correct" or they cease to be adaptations is just something you've made up.

Obviously the Tolkien estate and Simon Tolkien have changed that position, which is how you get Amazon claiming to want to "update" Tolkien to represent something it was never intended to represent, as in the "modern world".

"The modern world" isn't being represented here. None of these characters are representing any part of our modern world. All are part of Middle-earth in its timeless state which isn't meant to reflect any particular time period in our world, modern or ancient. The fact that you seem to think having varying human skin tones is only applicable to "the modern world" is an issue you need to personally get over.

[Kumorii]

"The modern world" isn't being represented here. None of these characters are representing any part of our modern world. All are part of Middle-earth in its timeless state which isn't meant to reflect any particular time period in our world, modern or ancient. The fact that you seem to think having varying human skin tones is only applicable to "the modern world" is an issue you need to personally get over.

It's the showrunners own words...

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ies-first-look

Amazon’s series will also broaden the notion of who shares the world of Middle-earth. One original story line centers on a silvan elf named Arondir, played by Ismael Cruz Córdova, who will be the first person of color to play an elf onscreen in a Tolkien project. He is involved in a forbidden relationship with Bronwyn, a human village healer played by Nazanin Boniadi, a British actor of Iranian heritage. Elsewhere, a Brit of Jamaican descent, Sir Lenny Henry, plays a harfoot elder, and Sophia Nomvete has a scene-stealing role as a dwarven princess named Disa—the latter being the first Black woman to play a dwarf in a Lord of the Rings movie, as well as the first female dwarf. “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series.

[jonnysensible]

"The modern world" isn't being represented here. None of these characters are representing any part of our modern world. All are part of Middle-earth in its timeless state which isn't meant to reflect any particular time period in our world, modern or ancient. The fact that you seem to think having varying human skin tones is only applicable to "the modern world" is an issue you need to personally get over.

not to mention that the whole thing is set in a mythological version of earths history 6000+ years ago. So its no surprise the world is diverse.

[Othraerir]

Oh he's not that iconic, he's just the actor who played one of the most famous elves in fiction.

someone needs to do a movie or tv series with THE most famous elf in fiction

[InfiniteCharger]

How many roles were called out specifically to find actors of specific skin tone? We wouldn't know that either.

The show runners, producers and actors have all said they wanted to make something resembling the modern world or modern Britain.
So, I am just pointing out that they couldn't have been doing that if they didn't include any of the groups I mentioned.
Africans, Iranians and Puerto Ricans aren't the only non European people in modern Britain.

[Specialka]

not to mention that the whole thing is set in a mythological version of earths history 6000+ years ago. So its no surprise the world is diverse.

The world was far less "diverse" back then than it is today.

[jonnysensible]

The world was far less "diverse" back then than it is today.

thats true not many honkeys around

[VinceVega]

So predictable. It's a fantasy ADAPTION of a 70 year old book.

It is not the real world. LotR is not the bible. You don't like it don't watch it but stop acting like you oppose it because it doesn't "honor" the legacs if you only watched the movies and only complain about black actors.

Skin color does not change ANYTHING. At all. It was never in any way an important point in LotR anywhere.
Yes Tolkien described them as white... so what? It is not medival europe. It borrows from folklore sure. Which is fiction in itself again.

Also stop thinking you are somehow the majortiy in this. 99,9% of people do NOT engange in anything related to this. They just watch the show or don't.
It is always the same. The momen i see a trailer and there is a black person in it. Bäm. Internet starts the hate train. Nerdrotic brings out a video. MMO-Chmapion starts a discussion on while it is better when only whire poeple are allowed to act in a completly fiction tv-show or movie. Then go ahead an watch it anyway while saying they don't and review bomb with 1 stars because they raged so long they could never admit it is a good show if it turns out good.

You decided allready. And act like you just want it to respect the source material. COmpletly ignoring that the movies allready didn't really respect the source material in the first place. And the only argument you read everywhere is: "There have been no black people in medival europe" And: "Galadriel should not be a warrior" which honestly was never explicity stated in the books either way.

It is an adaption. They don't say the make it 100% right in everything. They can't. It is not possible with cross media adaptions. Also they want to make money. Do you really think amazon did not do any market research at all? Go woke go broke is bullshit. Never had an influence. Shit shows are just shit. Good shows ar good.

[InfiniteCharger]

They're changing it because they think it is more important to choose the correct actor regardless of their skin colour, Tolkien didn't have to worry about getting the right actors so he could write his characters to look however they want.

No it means it was important to choose certain actors because of their skin color as obviously certain roles in certain stories are not open to anybody with any skin color. A movie or television studio using the casting process to justify changing how a particular character looks from a different form of media is making a conscious decision in opening the role to actors of various complexions, genders and backgrounds. There is nothing inherently 'racist' about casting if you say you are looking for a 20 to 30 year old male, medium build of European descent or white. That is normal in entertainment and happens every day. All casting calls are not open to everybody, no matter how some of you like to pretend everything should be open to everybody. It has never been like that and never will be like that. So it is up to a studio as to whether they want to open up specific roles to a wider casting process. It is a conscious decision either way.

No it isn't because books are different to TV shows. Saying Tolkien's work would have been "better" if he had cast the best actors regardless of skin colour is nonsense.

I am specifically addressing the things said by the showrunners and actors themselves who said that 'diversity' was required in order to bring this story into the modern world and therefore 'improve' it. Again, all of this is a conscious decision and only reflects the mindset at Amazon studios and their producers not any specific group of people because I do not remember any "black lives matters" protests claiming to be out in the streets because of 'representation' in JRR Tolkien. So them claiming all these changes were required are both saying that Tolkien was racist for not including enough diversity in certain parts of the story and therefore not a 'good story'. By your logic making a live action version of Akira is justified in changing the setting from Tolkyo to NYC, like they were talking of doing, which is just as stupid and dumb. And certainly if you want to champion some cause such as supporting justice for those who are victims of racism then donate a percentage of your profits to black people. But more realistically to address lack of black faces in entertainment, just hire and promote some actual African creators and artists to create stories that are organically African and diverse from the ground up instead of trying to pretend that African identity starts in ancient European history or mythology. Not to mention it gives diversity a bad name when a lot of these shows and movies turn out to be garbage, especially those going against the source material and making such a big deal about making these kinds of changes for diversity.

That's a stupid argument.

It is not stupid because no author is under any obligation to 'represent' any specific group of people whether it be based on skin color, disability status, gender, sexual orientation or any other such characteristics. Artistic freedom means the right to create what ever you want without being pressured or forced to change it for any reason. The only thing an author is obligated to represent is the ideas from their imagination. What people like you are saying is that because live action adaptations involve jobs and roles for people working in real life, that those stories can and should be subject to dictates and mandates that have absolutely nothing to do with the creative process for the purposes of not discriminating against anybody. But while discrimination in employment based on superficial characteristics should never be tolerated, that does not mean injecting a quota system into the creative process and remove the artistic freedom from the process. All of that process of quotas is something coming from studios not the original creators themselves who are no obligated to follow them. If a writer wants to make a story about all white people. Fine. If a writer wants to make a story about all black people, asian people, Indian people, that is also fine. None of that is 'racist' and biology isn't racist either.

Not if the people casting for the show think that skin colour is an important enough factor in the story.

No it is because of the reality that human societies around the world in history have never been melting pots. China is mostly Chinese, India is mostly Indian, Japan is mostly Japanese, Africa is mostly African. Technically the only places where there are melting pots are those places invaded and colonized by Europeans who then implemented selective immigration policies(quotas) preferring Europeans over natives another populations. Which is why these discussions are even happening in the first place, but that history of colonization doesn't change the fact that most human societies in history, whether European or otherwise were homogenous. Vikings, Welsh, Norse, Scottish and other groups were not melting pots of Africans, Asians, Native Americans and Europeans in history prior to 1000 years ago. Yes, there were 'black Europeans' at some point in the ancient past, but those would have had the same features as other Europeans, with darker skin. And the history of mistreatment of Africans is because they were not indigenous black Europeans. Which means there is no absolute reason for any fictional story to be a melting pot either as that is not the 'rule' in reality either. Therefore injecting Africans into European history as if they represent the diversity of 'indigenous' Europeans historically is nonsense in general. If someone wants to make a high fantasy story that represents a melting pot of various species that are very diverse then make one, but changing existing stories to force that diversity goes against creative freedom and rarely makes the original story any better. Just take WOW as a perfect example. All Elves don't look alike and there is no 'melting pot' Elven society. Every group of elves is homogenous. Night elves all look the same. Void Elves all look the same. etc. Orcs all look the same and so forth. There are no grey, brown, and tan Orcs.

Not even remotely true, Tolkien wasn't denying an actor a chance to play a role based on their skin colour with no good narrative reason.

Tolkien was writing a story and under no obligation to include any particular form of diversity according to any mandates for inclusion and representation. Creative freedom means being able to create whatever you want based on your on imagination and talent, not following mandates for diversity and inclusion. If someone wants to create a world that is a melting pot of diversity among all groups then they can certainly do it, but that doesn't mean trying to force that kind of melting pot diversity into something that doesn't already have it. All of that is purely up to the studio and whether they have it as a priority and we know that Amazon studios absolutely has a diversity and inclusion policy for their shows. That has absolutely nothing to do with any particular story or creator and is simply a quota system.

I brought up Aragorn and the other examples because there has already been a very popular adaptation of Tolkien's work by a director called Peter Jackson. It made numerous changes for aesthetic purposes or to better serve the movie-going audiences of the time and it didn't seem to do any harm, and by your argument it set the precedent that anyone can change anything.

I was not talking about Aragorn specifically and you included him in this discussion.

The main reason Amazon are doing this is because the Tolkien Estate, at the time headed by the author's son Christopher, asked production companies to bid for the rights to make some sort of TV series. It's Tolkien in so far as it is using the framework Tolkien made for the characters, events and nature of Middle-earth during the Second Age with cooperation from the inheritors of Tolkien's estate. The reason the showrunners are doing it is Tolkien created an incredibly detailed and enthralling mythology that is fertile ground for "other hands and minds" to add colour and drama.

Tolkien's own words said he did not want his story to be told be consistent and not have multiple different 'interpretations' varying in scope and character from what he wrote. And Christopher Tolkien was very much following his fathers wishes, which is why it wasn't until after he died that Amazon got the rights to do this TV show. Simon Tolkien is now working with Amazon and has always had a very different opinion from his father and his brother on whether studious should be able to deviate from his fathers work. And that is how this show came to be, which means that the Estate itself is changing as time goes on.

You'll have to show me the quotes you mean because the ones I have seen say they are happy that the cast will be reflecting the people you see in modern society, but it doesn't mean that the fictional society is representing modern society. If they bring in situations where people are being discriminated against due to their skin colour, or make part of the story allegorical to current social issues (bearing in mind Tolkien's description of the difference between allegory and inspiration) then I'd agree they're taking a wild swing away from Middle-earth, but I won't be able to judge that until I've seen the show.

And that is objectively false, because China and India make up the largest percentage of human diversity on earth, yet there are no Chinese in this show in any prominent roles. Tolkien was not writing his story to reflect a modern melting pot and there is no reason to include it other than studio mandates. And Tolkien as an author is not subject to those mandates and therefore doing this is not part of canon and simply irrelevant to the lore of what he actually wrote. So if some Asian studio decides to do Tolkien with all Asians then that is fine, because that too reflects the modern world, but it still isn't Tolkien.

How many Asians. Eskimos, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and Pakistanis applied to audition for roles in the series? How many were better suited for the role than the actors who will be playing them?

The point is if the studio wanted those kinds of actors in the story to represent the modern world, they would have found actors fitting that background. So it is not a reflection of "the modern world". The modern world has all those groups of people and yet this show doesn't include them, so the statement is false advertising. No Chinese. No Indians, No Pakistanis and those groups are all part of the "modern world". Which means they just made up these decisions on their own as a studio for the purposes of including some black people in order to address historic racism against black people. But Tolkien was not writing his story to be racist against black people. So to argue that including them was necessary is to claim Tolkien was racist.

[Lady Atia]

No it means it was important to choose certain actors because of their skin color as obviously certain roles in certain stories are not open to anybody with any skin color. A movie or television studio using the casting process to justify changing how a particular character looks from a different form of media is making a conscious decision in opening the role to actors of various complexions, genders and backgrounds. There is nothing inherently 'racist' about casting if you say you are looking for a 20 to 30 year old male, medium build of European descent or white. That is normal in entertainment and happens every day. All casting calls are not open to everybody, no matter how some of you like to pretend everything should be open to everybody. It has never been like that and never will be like that. So it is up to a studio as to whether they want to open up specific roles to a wider casting process. It is a conscious decision either way.


I am specifically addressing the things said by the showrunners and actors themselves who said that 'diversity' was required in order to bring this story into the modern world and therefore 'improve' it. Again, all of this is a conscious decision and only reflects the mindset at Amazon studios and their producers not any specific group of people because I do not remember any "black lives matters" protests claiming to be out in the streets because of 'representation' in JRR Tolkien. So them claiming all these changes were required are both saying that Tolkien was racist for not including enough diversity in certain parts of the story and therefore not a 'good story'. By your logic making a live action version of Akira is justified in changing the setting from Tolkyo to NYC, like they were talking of doing, which is just as stupid and dumb.



It is not stupid because no author is under any obligation to 'represent' any specific group of people whether it be based on skin color, disability status, gender, sexual orientation or any other such characteristics. Artistic freedom means the right to create what ever you want without being pressured or forced to change it for any reason. The only thing an author is obligated to represent is the ideas from their imagination. What people like you are saying is that because live action adaptations involve jobs and roles for people working in real life, that those stories can and should be subject to dictates and mandates that have absolutely nothing to do with the creative process for the purposes of not discriminating against anybody. But while discrimination in employment based on superficial characteristics should never be tolerated, that does not mean injecting a quota system into the creative process and remove the artistic freedom from the process. All of that process of quotas is something coming from studios not the original creators themselves who are no obligated to follow them. If a writer wants to make a story about all white people. Fine. If a writer wants to make a story about all black people, asian people, Indian people, that is also fine. None of that is 'racist' and biology isn't racist either.


No it is because of the reality that human societies around the world in history have never been melting pots. China is mostly Chinese, India is mostly Indian, Japan is mostly Japanese, Africa is mostly African. Technically the only places where there are melting pots are those places invaded and colonized by Europeans who then implemented selective immigration policies(quotas) preferring Europeans over natives another populations. Which is why these discussions are even happening in the first place, but that history of colonization doesn't change the fact that most human societies in history, whether European or otherwise were homogenous. Vikings, Welsh, Norse, Scottish and other groups were not melting pots of Africans, Asians, Native Americans and Europeans in history prior to 1000 years ago. And the history of mistreatment of Africans is because they were not indigenous black Europeans. Which means there is no absolute reason for any fictional story to be a melting pot either as that is not the 'rule' in reality either. Therefore injecting Africans into European history as if they represent the diversity of 'indigenous' Europeans historically is nonsense in general. If someone wants to make a high fantasy story that represents a melting pot of various species that are very diverse then make one, but changing existing stories to force that diversity goes against creative freedom and rarely makes the original story any better. Just take WOW as a perfect example. All Elves don't look alike and there is no 'melting pot' Elven society. Every group of elves is homogenous. Night elves all look the same. Void Elves all look the same. etc. Orcs all look the same and so forth. There are no grey, brown, and tan Orcs.


Tolkien was writing a story and under no obligation to include any particular form of diversity according to any mandates for inclusion and representation. Creative freedom means being able to create whatever you want based on your on imagination and talent, not following mandates for diversity and inclusion. If someone wants to create a world that is a melting pot of diversity among all groups then they can certainly do it, but that doesn't mean trying to force that kind of melting pot diversity into something that doesn't already have it. All of that is purely up to the studio and whether they have it as a priority and we know that Amazon studios absolutely has a diversity and inclusion policy for their shows. That has absolutely nothing to do with any particular story or creator and is simply a quota system.


I was not talking about Aragorn specifically and you included him in this discussion.


Tolkien's own words said he did not want his story to be told be consistent and not have multiple different 'interpretations' varying in scope and character from what he wrote. And Christopher Tolkien was very much following his fathers wishes, which is why it wasn't until after he died that Amazon got the rights to do this TV show. Simon Tolkien is now working with Amazon and has always had a very different opinion from his father and his brother on whether studious should be able to deviate from his fathers work. And that is how this show came to be, which means that the Estate itself is changing as time goes on.


And that is objectively false, because China and India make up the largest percentage of human diversity on earth, yet there are no Chinese in this show in any prominent roles. Tolkien was not writing his story to reflect a modern melting pot and there is no reason to include it other than studio mandates. And Tolkien as an author is not subject to those mandates and therefore doing this is not part of canon and simply irrelevant to the lore of what he actually wrote. So if some Asian studio decides to do Tolkien with all Asians then that is fine, because that too reflects the modern world, but it still isn't Tolkien.


The point is if the studio wanted those kinds of actors in the story to represent the modern world, they would have found actors fitting that background. So it is not a reflection of "the modern world". The modern world has all those groups of people and yet this show doesn't include them, so the statement is false advertising. No Chinese. No Indians, No Pakistanis and those groups are all part of the "modern world". Which means they just made up these decisions on their own as a studio for the purposes of including some black people in order to address historic racism against black people. But Tolkien was not writing his story to be racist against black people. So to argue that including them was necessary is to claim Tolkien was racist.

Hahahaha it's funny how you can't even get your wow lore straight. There are, in fact, brown and grey Orcs in WoW and they also added black skin to the Blood and Void Elves. Same goes for WoW's dwarves and humans btw. Oh and, starting with Dragonflight, Silvermoon and Suramar will be one nation and a melting pot for their societies as their leaders are married now. Honestly, all I get out of your huge wall of text is that in fact, you have a problem with black actors used in a fantasy movie.

[InfiniteCharger]

Hahahaha it's funny how you can't even get your wow lore straight. There are, in fact, brown and grey Orcs in WoW and they also added black skin to the Blood and Void Elves. Same goes for WoW's dwarves and humans btw. Oh and, starting with Dragonflight, Silvermoon and Suramar will be one nation and a melting pot for their societies as their leaders are married now. Honestly, all I get out of your huge wall of text is that in fact, you have a problem with black actors used in a fantasy movie.

The point was that each of those groups of elves were homogenous. Night Elves were homogenous. Blood Elves were homogenous. Nightborne were homogenous. Just like all Orcs prior to Mannoroth were brown and afterwards were all Green and homogenous. These weren't melting pots is the point. Now that all these years have passed some of the elven groups are starting to mix but that is only a recent occurrence. And this was using WOW just to show that the idea diversity in a story requiring 'melting pots' is not accurate. Just like the MMO genre and D&D before that often has diversity in the form of different homogenous cultures and societies because it is the world building that goes into defining those distinct cultures, languages and variations in species and appearance that makes the world diverse to begin with. Versus just randomly scaterring a general set of features among every population with no distinction in culture, language, tradition, etc. A lot of that world building is a direct legacy of Tolkien.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I will go into episode 1 turning my brain off, trying not to think about the lore abortions, and just try to enjoy the spectacle. This is like the most expensive TV production ever, right? Surely the producers know how to retain audience interest. Hopefully it will have more spectacle than the first two episodes of House of the Dragons did.

[loras]

So is it any good?
I've some distaste for "woke" stuff, but mostly for its deleterious effects on quality, did they manage to avoid that pitfall or is it as bad as it some expected it to be?
I'll pirate it in due time if it's promising enough, but i haven't the time nor inclination yet to make an attempt, so figured i'd ask here.

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The point was that each of those groups of elves were homogenous. Night Elves were homogenous. Blood Elves were homogenous. Nightborne were homogenous. Just like all Orcs prior to Mannoroth were brown and afterwards were all Green and homogenous. These weren't melting pots is the point. Now that all these years have passed some of the elven groups are starting to mix but that is only a recent occurrence. And this was using WOW just to show that the idea diversity in a story requiring 'melting pots' is not accurate. Just like the MMO genre and D&D before that often has diversity in the form of different homogenous cultures and societies because it is the world building that goes into defining those distinct cultures, languages and variations in species and appearance that makes the world diverse to begin with. Versus just randomly scaterring a general set of features among every population with no distinction in culture, language, tradition, etc. A lot of that world building is a direct legacy of Tolkien.

Black elves are just animated chocolate constructs.

[Romanthony]

Ive seen some of the "Real" reviews now that th Emborgo has lifted and YIKES

One good example of it, Would be the news outlet, Entertainment Weekly for for Months leading up to the release of the show was heavily promating it, they even had exclussives and what not, Like you would think that these people would Paint the show in a postive light due to how hard they was pushing it

https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/lord-of...-power-amazon/ Boy was we wrong. Sounds like the show is all over the place

One scene that was called into question was when Galadriel is 1 v 1ing a troll. But because they want to market this for kids, there is no blood what so ever and then in the very next scene, the Hobbit knock offs, fighting a orc slitting his throat, impaling him ona spear, then hanging up and bathign in there blood like what?

[InfiniteCharger]

So is it any good?
I've some distaste for "woke" stuff, but mostly for its deleterious effects on quality, did they manage to avoid that pitfall or is it as bad as it some expected it to be?
I'll pirate it in due time if it's promising enough, but i haven't the time nor inclination yet to make an attempt, so figured i'd ask here.

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Black elves are just animated chocolate constructs.

What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.

[Lady Atia]

What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.

Ehm .... when was the last time you played wow?

[tikcol]

It began with the forging of the great films. Threads were given by Tolkien, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Rights were granted to Jackson, great miner and craftsman of the mountain of lore. And nine, nine hours were gifted to the race of men, who above all else, desire quality. But they were all of them deceived, for another show was made. In the land of Amazon, in the fires of Mount Prime, the Dark Lord Bezos forged in secret a master flop. And into this show he poured his money, his greed and his will to dominate all film. One show to ruin them all

So I guess this is a lore accurate prequel after all

[InfiniteCharger]

Ehm .... when was the last time you played wow?

And? What does that have to do with each group of Elves being homogenous for most of the history of the game from Night elves and Blood Elves, to Night Borne and Void elves. There were no mixed populations of Night elves, blood elves and Nightborne in the Lore of the game itself. This has absolutely nothing to do with "black" skinned elves as an option in the character customization screen. "Night" elves and even furthere "Night"borne are the dark skinned elves in the lore and have always been there.