Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

In the interview with Tolkien which I think you linked he says that the trees are based on the east from Alexander the Great story’s, Alexander the Great notable went to Egypt and Western Asia which includes Iran.

So middle earth explicitly pulls from Africa and if not Iran it self the area around it as per Tolkien’s own words.

That doesn't mean that "Iran" exists in middle earth, no more than America exists in Star Wars.

[Rennadrel]

Its not a rule. There are more than enough movies with an all white cast still. And, compared to LotR, Black Panther plays in our actuall world as an isolationist country in africa. Makes sense to be all black. Also the movie wasn't even all black in the first place.

Please name all of the top movies from 2021 that had an all white cast in them, because I doubt you will find any. Disney has made it their goal to make everything diverse, whether it makes sense or not and they churn out the most crap on a yearly basis of any film company.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That doesn't mean that "Iran" exists in middle earth, no more than America exists in Star Wars.

Sure neither does Europe so any and all references to any thing having to do with Europe is just as wrong as any from Africa and the middle east.

[InfiniteCharger]

Can you show me where anyone involved with the show said they chose a particular actor for their skin colour and not acting ability?

Can you show me where anyone involved with the show said that skin colour was going to have an effect on the story? Not diversity as pretty much the whole point of LotR and other stories is "diversity is strength."

Again, no writer is obligated to include any specific group of people in their story because of fear of being racist. You keep making this silly argument that this is required when it is not by trying to use the casting process in a live action version as inherently racist by sticking to the source material. And then to top it off you asked a dishonest question when there are numerous intreviews with the people of this show you can look up for yourself where they have stated their views on this topic. So to sit here and ask me to show this to you is just you being blatantly dishonest in pretending not to have known about them or their views on it. Which is especially odd since you are defending it.

It's a very simple test - does a character's skin colour have any bearing on the story? If yes then cast someone with the correct skin colour. If no then cast whichever actor seems best for the role. If skin colour is irrelevant then it isn't "changing the story" it's just changing the aesthetics. Ultimately having a dark-skinned actor is no more significant than showing Aragorn and Boromir with beards, or putting the men of Gondor in plate armour instead of mail.

The only test is whether the original author explicitly intended that kind of diversity to exist in their original story in terms of accuracy to the lore. Again, these made up rules are just that, made up rules because no author or artist is obligated to include any specific kind of diversity in anything they create. That has never been true in history and is not how creativity works. If some studio has a mandate that they have made a priority as a company, that in no way has anything do do with the original author or artist who created a specific work this studio may be trying to adapt. Those are two totally complete and separate things. You keep talking like somehow everything 'must' have a certain kind of diversity in art or fiction when that is absolutely not the case and your only defense for this is 'discrimination in casting' which is not the basis of how creative people create stories or art to begin with. How Amazon casts for its roles is completely up to Amazon and does not represent a 'standard' policy for all studios.

You should check the "quota system" you are talking about, it isn't anywhere near as binding as you seem to think it is especially for actors appearing in front of the camera.

The point is it exists and has absolutely nothing to do with the creative process for writing fiction or creating art. Now if you as an individual decide that these rules exist and must be followed then that is up to you if you decide to make your own work of fiction or fantasy. But that is not a rule that has to be followed by anybody else. If Amazon has a diversity and inclusion policy, that only applies to Amazon and not any other studio and certainly not Tolkien.

I was talking about Aragorn because he is a very solid example of a character who was changed for a screen adaptation (the LotR trilogy directed by Peter Jackson) that went on to be massively successful, which by your argument has set a precedent for other producers making changes.

OK. But I wasn't talking about Aragorn in general.

Yeah but Tolkien only actually released the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings as finished pieces (and the Hobbit was retconned in after LotR was released.) Everything else he wrote has multiple iterations in his notes and letters.

Those works were released as final versions and have never been changed or retconned. Whatever notes he may have had or decisions he may have made and then changed is a normal part of the creative process but that doesn't change the final product. You really are stretching here to argue that somehow his internal notes and letters which weren't published until after he died somehow mean that he intended or desired his work to be drastically contradicted by anybody who purchased the rights...... Not to mention the Simarillion and many other writings of Tolkien were published posthumously and cannot be said to literally be his final say on the matter either since they weren't finished before he died.

That's isn't altogether correct, Christopher Tolkien died two years after Amazon acquired the rights to make a Tolkien series.

Simon Tolkien is Christopher Tolkien's son, JRR's grandson.

You are right. Christopher Tolkien resigned as head of the Tolkien Estate two months before Amazon bought the rights to to the appendices.
And yes, Simon is JRR Tolkiens grandson and Simon has always been outspoken that it is not mandatory for studios to stick too close to Tolkiens original work and famously criticized Peter Jackson for trying to stay too close to the source material.

How many Chinese and Indian actors applied to appear in Rings of Power though? You seem to think a casting call went out for black people to play a particular role and believe they should have made a 90s style rainbow casting where boxes are checked. Isn't it perfectly possible that they just asked for people to play elves and some of them had darker skin? Also the studio mandate is a myth.

What matters is the casting call because if they wanted actors of these various backgrounds they would have put that in the casting call. Whatever kind of mythological open casting call you are referring to doesn't make any sense whether you are sticking to the source material or trying to be inclusive. In order for either scenario to happen you would have to have decided to include certain types of people of certain backgrounds in certain roles and cast accordingly. Do you honestly think that they actually casted black or Asian actresses for galadriel? Is it possible, sure, but more than likely they knew up front what kind of actress they wanted from the beginning. Do you think that they did not openly cast for a black female as Miriel? Again, they likely knew from before the time they started casting that they wanted a black woman to play this role and it wasn't simply because this specific actress was so awesome that they decided to cast her. That is simply trying to deny the fact that the choice to include 'diversity' were made before casting even started.

The mental gymnastics you're pulling here are astounding. One group of people deciding that skin colour is not a reason to deny people the opportunity to play particular roles is not calling an author racist for writing about particular features in a group of characters. Surely the fact they feel comfortable adapting his work with a more diverse array of skin tones shows they don't think he was racists as skin colour is incidental to the characters and the stories.

Again, you are trying to avoid the reality that there is no mandate for any artist or writer to include any specific kind of diversity in a work of art. None. No such rule exists and you trying pretend it does just flies against the facts. If any such rule existed then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But that rule doesn't exist and this is why you are left with trying to portray casting processes at a studio as equivalent in scope and effort to the creative process of an individual creating a work of art when those are two completely separate things and no writer or artist is being racist in including or not including people of certain backgrounds in their art.

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Sure neither does Europe so any and all references to any thing having to do with Europe is just as wrong as any from Africa and the middle east.

There is no literal "Europe" in Middle Earth either, meaning that this fictional place is not the real world. You know this. I don't know why you are going on about it. Influenced by or derived from does not make it the same. It is fiction not real life.

[Lady Atia]

Inspired by does not mean set in. The Southrons in Middle Earth are inspired by Africa and Middle Eastern history and culture which even Peter Jackson managed to encapsulate that in how he presented the Haradrim in ROTK.

More middle eastern than african though in the case of PJ, last time I checked the Haradrim in part 3 were all white.


But yeah, Khand and Rhun f.e. should be asian inspired.

Do you think that they did not openly cast for a black female as Miriel? Again, they likely knew from before the time they started casting that they wanted a black woman to play this role and it wasn't simply because this specific actress was so awesome that they decided to cast her. That is simply trying to deny the fact that the choice to include 'diversity' were made before casting even started.

What kind of bullshit reasoning is this? Of course they didn't cast the Queen as a "token character". You are absurd.

[InfiniteCharger]

What kind of bullshit reasoning is this? Of course they didn't cast the Queen as a "token character". You are absurd.

You may or may not be being sarcastic. The only bullshit reasoning is those pushing the idea movie studios spend millions of dollars to write and produce a show and have no idea what the characters are going to look like until they start casting. Yes it does happen that the final decision on a specific character may indeed be influenced by the actual results of the casting process or other real world issues. But in general studios and production teams know for the most part in advance what kind of actors they are looking for when they put out the casting call and many times these are not "open to anybody and everybody" because it is obviously a waste of time to cast for any kind of male between 30 to 35 years old when you only want a black male for that role. So these made up ideas of how casting works is indeed bullshit. Not to mention many times these production teams may even also have a short list of actors and actresses they are looking for to audition.

Case in point, House of the Dragon. George R R Martin himself decided to change the Valeryons early on as part of adapting this story to the screen. Obviously that would have affected how those roles would have been casted and yes that would indeed mean casting black or biracial actors and actresses specifically for those roles. Meaning it would have been a waste of time to even pretend to have an open casting call for people who were not black or biracial in those roles.

[Triceron]

Its not a rule. There are more than enough movies with an all white cast still. And, compared to LotR, Black Panther plays in our actuall world as an isolationist country in africa. Makes sense to be all black. Also the movie wasn't even all black in the first place.

But that same logic could apply to LOTR, having been 'a movie with an all white cast still', and it would make sense because Middle Earth's main races are portrayed as isolationists.

That's why I don't get why the argument for maintaining artistic expression is immediately equal to racism. If we can accept that there are still movies being made with an all-white cast that are done so because of creative reasons, and that they aren't intentionally discriminating or exploiting certain peoples for it, then I don't see it being a problem.

Cast diversity is only as relevant as the creative production. To me, there's no difference between the Green Knight having an Indian actor play the role of an Arthurian Knight, or the Northman having an all-white cast. These are ultimately creative decisions, quite outside the realm of any actual racism or discrimination. Sometimes those lines can be crossed, but like... even the PJ films adapting an all-white cast isn't infringing on people's rights. It's literally a creative adaptation of Middle Earth that adheres to a certain representation of 'European' culture that Tolkien had outlined for his world.

Rings of Power is free to make an adaptation that has Black Elves/Dwarves in it, but it doesn't mean would be free from criticisms. Middle Earth is a very well-established universe, and it's one where Black Elves and Dwarves are not considered normal. Could it become normalized? Sure, but I don't think Rings of Power is taking the right step in doing so if this is what we're talking about. There's way to ease in new creative concepts, and IMO, stirring controversy and bait-and-switching a faithful adaptation to the books is not the way to present Black Elves and Dwarves into Middle Earth.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There is no literal "Europe" in Middle Earth either, meaning that this fictional place is not the real world. You know this. I don't know why you are going on about it. Influenced by or derived from does not make it the same. It is fiction not real life.

There are two ways to interpret your original post.

either your talking about how there is literally no Africa’s/Iran which would mean mentioning Europe and a European setting would be incredibly stupid as those things aren’t there either.

Or when you mention Europe African or Iran you are talking about real life settings Tolkien pulled from when writing, in which case you claim Iran Africa ect aren’t significant when it comes to middle earth lore but Tolkien him self disputes this when talking about how the trees are taken from Alexander the Great and his time in the east.

My original reply was under the assumption you meant the get less stupid second option which is why I said Tolkien pulled from Africa/the Middle East and I didn’t say they were actually in middle earth. Your reply of “ya but Africa isn’t in middle earth” obviously doesn’t apply to the second option so I just swapped to the first. Ie, so neither is Europe.

[InfiniteCharger]

There are two ways to interpret your original post.

either your talking about how there is literally no Africa’s/Iran which would mean mentioning Europe and a European setting would be incredibly stupid as those things aren’t there either.

Or when you mention Europe African or Iran you are talking about real life settings Tolkien pulled from when writing, in which case you claim Iran Africa ect aren’t significant when it comes to middle earth lore but Tolkien him self disputes this when talking about how the trees are taken from Alexander the Great and his time in the east.

My original reply was under the assumption you meant the get less stupid second option which is why I said Tolkien pulled from Africa/the Middle East and I didn’t say they were actually in middle earth. Your reply of “ya but Africa isn’t in middle earth” obviously doesn’t apply to the second option so I just swapped to the first. Ie, so neither is Europe.

Come on dude with these stupid replies. You can't be that unable to understand that there is no Iran, Puerto Rico, America, Germany or England in Middle Earth. They don't exist. Period. This has nothing to do with influences. It has to do with the way the world was defined and created by the author, specifically in the naming of continents, nations, cultures, cities, civilizations, languages and species. Which means that Middle Earth is not supposed to fully embody or represent all specific combinations of cultural practices or traditions from real world earth. Rhun and Harad are not Asia and Africa, so even if those cultures are influenced by them, they are still not literally Asian or African because it is fiction and those geographic regions nor names exist in this world. Which means it is not OK to introduce "Samaurai" into this story just because Rhun is loosely based on Asia, even if fighters similar to samauri do exist. There is also no reason to include giant Buddha statues either as there is no "buddhism" in Middle Earth. But having other kinds of large statues with similar characteristics could certainly exist in this world, but not necessarily the concept of literal "buddhism".

[ClassicPeon]

this does not give me LOTR vibes at all.

I'm actually a little dissapointed in how the elves are looking so far.

I remember in lotr they where literally glowing and you got this feeling when they where on screen that these where truly magical creatures to be respected.

The elves here just look like humans with longer ears.

I am getting some lotr vibes but i havent seen anything yet that makes me really excited to watch this. Its gonne come down to how invested i feel with the characters.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Come on dude with these stupid replies. You can't be that unable to understand that there is no Iran, Puerto Rico, America, Germany or England in Middle Earth. They don't exist. Period. This has nothing to do with influences. It has to do with the way the world was defined and created by the author, specifically in the naming of continents, nations, cultures, cities, civilizations, languages and species.

Sigh…

Yes there is no Iran or any other real places in middle earth, which is why I said the first interpretation of your original post was stupid and I was replying initially as if you meant Tolkien was pulling from real life places not that those places were actually in middle earth.

IE the dwarfs have names pulled from the Norse, elfs trolls ect are pulled from Europe’s folklore and the trees are pulled some where from the Middle East.

[Triceron]

I mean middle earth isn’t set in Europe either with the same interview saying it’s impossible to fit middle earth into the real world at any point.

So if chargers point was that it physically isn’t there then the point is nonsense any way because there’s also no Europe.

Northern European culture, mythology and locations are the inspiration for the setting of Middle Earth (that we know of and explore).

It would be the most faithful way to adapt Middle Earth from text to a visual medium, based on what we know of Middle Earth and its inspirational roots.

Just like if we were talking about a fictional story/setting based on Chinese culture, it wouldn't be 'nonsense' to represent it visually using an Asian-centric cast. It doesn't mean it's the only way to adapt it, but having an Asian-centric cast would be the most sensible way to faithfully adapt a story/setting that's based on Chinese culture. I honestly don't see why this has become such an issue of 'racism' when applied to Tolkien's own Northern European-centric mythology/fiction, which has been well established for decades.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Northern European culture, mythology and locations are the inspiration for the setting of Middle Earth (that we know of and explore).

It would be the most faithful way to adapt Middle Earth from text to a visual medium, based on what we know of Middle Earth and its inspirational roots.

Sure but I’m not talk about adaptions.

Charger said that Iran Africa ect aren’t “supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth” that they have myths and lore that apply to other things like wow but not middle earth, such a statement is just false given the rolls of the two trees in early middle earth and the fact that those trees are inspired by Alexander the Greats time in the east according to Tolkien.

[Triceron]

Sure but I’m not talk about adaptions.

Charger said that Iran Africa ect aren’t “supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth” that they have myths and lore that apply to other things like wow but not middle earth, such a statement is just false given the rolls of the two trees in early middle earth and the fact that those trees are inspired by Alexander the Greats time in the east according to Tolkien.

To be fair, that doesn't actually affect InfiniteCharger's point. He's talking about specific locations and people's cultures not existing directly in Middle Earth. I think his examples of no Samurai in Middle Earth even if 'Rhun is inspired by Asia' is a good example of this.

The two trees that are inspired by the trees in Alexander the Great's time aren't specific to Iranian/African cultural representation in Middle Earth. So honestly, I'm not quite sure what your point actually is, since these aren't myths and lore that are specific to representing Iranian/African culture in any way. Tolkien merely took the concept of Magical Trees that shone with light, and worked it into his mythology.

It'd be no different than the inspirations that Christianity has over the Middle Earth universe, and Christianity itself being rooted in the Middle East and adapted in Roman times has no direct relation to representing the peoples or their culture. We're literally talking about (culturally agnostic) symbolic influences from mythology/religion with this example of the Trees.

[InfiniteCharger]

Sure but I’m not talk about adaptions.

Charger said that Iran Africa ect aren’t “supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth” that they have myths and lore that apply to other things like wow but not middle earth, such a statement is just false given the rolls of the two trees in early middle earth and the fact that those trees are inspired by Alexander the Greats time in the east according to Tolkien.

What I meant was that because there is no "Iran" or "Puerto Rico" in Middle Earth there is no mandate to include any specific elements of those cultures in any future stories made in Middle Earth. Because "Iran" or even "Britain" implies a specific historic combination of cultural elements and traditions that are distinct in the real world and those specific combinations don't exist in Middle Earth. So while we can see various elements in Middle Earth from various cultures, it is combined in such a way that makes it distinct as part of this fictional world and not the same as the real world counterpart that it is derived from. Using Asian culture as a reference for Rhun doesn't mean we should be trying to make Rhun a mirror image of Asia in the real world. It is not.

A good example of this is Elden Ring. It is a Japanese game that takes many of these elements and amplifies it to the max but in no way shape or form is it similar to the "real world" even though the influences from Japanese, European, Asian and other cultures are obvious. I liked even the names and how they actually are used correctly based on their real world linguistic counterparts they are derived from, like Gaol. The word Nox is another one that was even better because it isn't even obvious to me as a reference to Night or Darkness.



And in my opinion video games in general do a much better of job of world building in the high fantasy genre, which is more in line with being inspired by Tolkien than these studios and their live action adaptations. Which results in just randomly thrown together elements in a story with no thought of how they fit together or make sense from the perspective of the lore they are adapting or building.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

To be fair, that doesn't actually affect InfiniteCharger's point. He's talking about specific locations and people's cultures not existing directly in Middle Earth.

Tolkien refers to both war like Jews and Gypsy’s as inspirations for his races/culture, while Mabye not directly linked to Iran the country but the region is absolutely represented in the cultures of middle earth as well.

The tree was just an easy example of a significant part of the lore of middle earth taken from the east but it’s not the only part.

[Triceron]

Tolkien refers to both war like Jews and Gypsy’s as inspirations for his races/culture, while Mabye not directly linked to Iran the country but the region is absolutely represented in the cultures of middle earth as well.

The tree was just an easy example of a significant part of the lore of middle earth taken from the east but it’s not the only part.

Right, and there are Mongolian-like descriptions of Easterlings and Middle Eastern/African-like descriptions for the people of Southron and Harad. These are direct references to what these people looked like. So it would be sensible to visually adapt them to look as they are described.

How they dress, what they eat, what weapons they use and everything else about their culture that hasn't been explicitly described can be then creatively adapted to fill in the blanks. But representing them fully as a 'racially diverse' people wouldn't be filling in blanks, it'd be contrary to the descriptions we have that imply a certain look to them.

For example, having a racially diverse depiction of Southrons is perfectly fine for any visual adaptation, but may not be considered faithful or sensible to the source material.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

the adaptation

Again I’m not talking about any adaption.

I’m just talking about rather places other then Europe are Significant to middle earths lore and they are both on in regards to the world and the cultures in it.

[Ausr]

I know they put the 80s sitcom edited in, but it's fit.

They paid $1 billion for this shit and this is the best they could do. Like holy fuck.

[Myradin]

They should have just used that first title teaser they did for the intro.

If this is really the intro thats really sad.