is M+ and Tier Forge killing raid ?

[Opeth69]

i think they need to make the barrier to entry to raiding especially mythic raiding much easier. Compare savage raids to mythic, savage can be done one night a week for a few weeks to clear in a reasonable rate. A comparable mythic guild will raid 3-4 nights per week, farm m+ outside those, clear normal/heroic for loot, do boost runs for guild feasts/mats and gold, this wouldnt even be considered hardcore raiding by most in the mythic community. I think the days of the playerbase being willing to sacrifice 3-4 nights a week every week for potentially months are long gone, the challenge should be killing the boss not all the other crap outside that, it burns players out.

What if heroic and mythic dropped the same iLV but mythic gear had bonuses when worn in raids, similar to how pvp gear can scale. Add more cosmetic options to mythic, reduce the barriers to entry and make mythic raiding more concise high difficulty boss challenges to test players rather than the bloated mess it is today. Mythic could drop gear 50 i lv higher than m+ and it would still be dying, people just dont enjoy the requirements around mythic raiding vs m+ and other content

[tomten]

No,. they're not. You get 1 chanche per week. Meanwhile if a M+ drops a trinket you can spam it until you drop it.

With how fated raids works, you can spam them, lfr, normal, heroic and mythic and then use the upgrade mechanic for 4 chances per week...but wait, there's more...
You can also have the entire raid potentially trade you items and far easier to armor stack for each of those 4 runs, amounting to hundreds of chances per week. Doubt you could physically run that many m+ per week for equal chances.
I do like how you ignored everything else in my post

[Coldkil]

With how fated raids works, you can spam them, lfr, normal, heroic and mythic and then use the upgrade mechanic for 4 chances per week...but wait, there's more...
You can also have the entire raid potentially trade you items and far easier to armor stack for each of those 4 runs, amounting to hundreds of chances per week. Doubt you could physically run that many m+ per week for equal chances.

It doesn't work like this. You still have 1 chance to loot per boos weekly. You cannot upgrade LFR to Normal ilvl - there is literally no currency to do so, it exists only in HC and Mythic. Granted you fully clear both HC and Mythic (assuming a 10 boss raid), you cannot upgrade your normal piece for two reasons: a) you need 20 tokens for each upgrade = 2 weeks of clearing for a single normal->HC->Mythic upgrade and b) it actually doesn't drop for each kill, only if you don't loot anything else, meaning it's even more time. And again, it's locked per week, you cannot spam 20 first mythic boss kill to get your tokens. You don't have "hundreds of chances". Until you mean you can go into PUGs and not loot anything yourself and hope someone else both drops and doesn't need the loot and you actually win the roll - but also means boss drops less stuff since already locked players don't count for the total of drops (i mean if you're 15 in the group and 5 people are already locked, the boss drops as if the group was a 10man).

It looks like a lot of people have no clue about these mechanics actually. But i may have gotten your post wrong.

I do like how you ignored everything else in my post

I didn't ignore it, i simply had nothing to say about it so i don't quote things i am not talking about. It's just my modus operandi.

- - - Updated - - -

Then you should watch the interview again, its pretty abundantly clear what they're saying and are gonna do.
m+ will reward gear after 15 and it will scale up to mythic ilvl gear.

If this means HC and 15s are getting on the same level, i'm fine with it. I don't know if Mythic raiders will be happy about this though, but Mythic is a beats of tis own and gear there as a reward is "less relevant" (i mean people tend to raid Mythic for the challenge and not to farm it and gear up their characters). On a personal level, this just means i'll stop at +20 or whatever instead of 15s like now, if i am able to do so; it will just end with boosts selling +20 instead of +15 for the major part. I'm curious about what they're going to announce.

In the end the issue (for the Nth time) is in the middle of progression and not at the end, where progression stops.

[Opeth69]

It doesn't work like this. You still have 1 chance to loot per boos weekly. You cannot upgrade LFR to Normal ilvl - there is literally no currency to do so, it exists only in HC and Mythic. Granted you fully clear both HC and Mythic (assuming a 10 boss raid), you cannot upgrade your normal piece for two reasons: a) you need 20 tokens for each upgrade = 2 weeks of clearing for a single normal->HC->Mythic upgrade and b) it actually doesn't drop for each kill, only if you don't loot anything else, meaning it's even more time. And again, it's locked per week, you cannot spam 20 first mythic boss kill to get your tokens. You don't have "hundreds of chances". Until you mean you can go into PUGs and not loot anything yourself and hope someone else both drops and doesn't need the loot and you actually win the roll - but also means boss drops less stuff since already locked players don't count for the total of drops (i mean if you're 15 in the group and 5 people are already locked, the boss drops as if the group was a 10man).

It looks like a lot of people have no clue about these mechanics actually. But i may have gotten your post wrong.



I didn't ignore it, i simply had nothing to say about it so i don't quote things i am not talking about. It's just my modus operandi.

- - - Updated - - -



If this means HC and 15s are getting on the same level, i'm fine with it. I don't know if Mythic raiders will be happy about this though, but Mythic is a beats of tis own and gear there as a reward is "less relevant" (i mean people tend to raid Mythic for the challenge and not to farm it and gear up their characters). On a personal level, this just means i'll stop at +20 or whatever instead of 15s like now, if i am able to do so; it will just end with boosts selling +20 instead of +15 for the major part. I'm curious about what they're going to announce.

In the end the issue (for the Nth time) is in the middle of progression and not at the end, where progression stops.

Keeping mythic raiders happy should no longer be a priority, so few raid mythic and the content is dying off in popularity, blizz need to focus on challenging rewarding content that can be done quickly by groups. Maybe blizz should steal from FFXIV and introduce there version of extreme trials

[Coldkil]

Keeping mythic raiders happy should no longer be a priority

Again, Mythic raiding is not even discussed here. The issue lies in the competition between raids and M+ in the low/mod levels, where M+ is just so much better on multiple aspects. Much like M+ past 15, needs to be treated as a beast of its own.

[Hyperaffe]

The problem is if you make M+ gear too good heroic raid gearing is fucked, and if you make it not good enough it pressures key pushers into mythic raids.

Solution imo is to expand pvp ilvl system to raids and M+. A 298 item from M+ should be ilvl 311 inside dungeons etc.

Yeah, obviously.

But people will go on and on about their favourite plaything being superior and "deserving" a comparative buff to tip the scales in a neverending problem. It's Blizz fucking everybody, hating on the other part of the same community (and lots of people are part of both) is so useless. Wasn't arena vs raid gear the EXACT same problem? Nobody talks about that anymore because it is fixed.

[ClassicPeon]

I don't know what this has to do with what I said, but yes I do. Most guilds and players suck, doesn't mean mythic loot is irrelevant for better players. You don't have to take it personally even though your guild is one of those, it's only a game after all.
.

" If you start killing mythic bosses in the first week of its release, you are almost guaranteed to get relevant loot."

it has this to do with what you wrote.

Are you a progression raider? Do you clear mythic bosses in the first week?

[tomten]

It doesn't work like this. You still have 1 chance to loot per boos weekly. You cannot upgrade LFR to Normal ilvl - there is literally no currency to do so, it exists only in HC and Mythic. Granted you fully clear both HC and Mythic (assuming a 10 boss raid), you cannot upgrade your normal piece for two reasons: a) you need 20 tokens for each upgrade = 2 weeks of clearing for a single normal->HC->Mythic upgrade and b) it actually doesn't drop for each kill, only if you don't loot anything else, meaning it's even more time. And again, it's locked per week, you cannot spam 20 first mythic boss kill to get your tokens. You don't have "hundreds of chances". Until you mean you can go into PUGs and not loot anything yourself and hope someone else both drops and doesn't need the loot and you actually win the roll - but also means boss drops less stuff since already locked players don't count for the total of drops (i mean if you're 15 in the group and 5 people are already locked, the boss drops as if the group was a 10man).

It looks like a lot of people have no clue about these mechanics actually. But i may have gotten your post wrong.

Except you're wrong in everything you say? You have 4 chances to loot boss weekly, excluding trading where you're far more likely to run with the same people. Always having 5-15 ppl able to to trade you. That's minimum 60 chances per week. For m+ to be same? Thats 60 15+s to run.

You can upgrade any fated item to whatever upgrade you hold. Which means you can upgrade a lfr drop straight to mythic ilvl. You just can't farm the upgrades from lfr itself. And if the trinket drops from the hc/mythic raid itself, there's no point upgrading.
The upgrade drop is also guaranteed one per boss kill for heroic. RNG chance on normal. Mythic gets them faster and can already pick and have all their bis for both offspec by the average m+ are looting their 4th GV, assuming they oculd even a +15 first reset... Say you would need 2 dinars, 2upgrades, which you have after finishing the 2nd dinar quest. Which took 5 weeks.

The irony of the bolded part is making me giggle.

[Coldkil]

The irony of the bolded part is making me giggle.

You've proven again you don't even know the basic mechanics of the game and are unable to read patch notes. There's nothing worth in discussing with someone that believes in wrong things, so i'm out.

Feel free to take this as a win or whatever you feel like.

[facefist]

" If you start killing mythic bosses in the first week of its release, you are almost guaranteed to get relevant loot."

it has this to do with what you wrote.

Are you a progression raider? Do you clear mythic bosses in the first week?

Yes and yes. I also have been in more chilled guilds that raided mythic randomly, and I still got relevant loot from raids.

[ClassicPeon]

Yes and yes. I also have been in more chilled guilds that raided mythic randomly, and I still got relevant loot from raids.

So you are basically a person with way too much free time on his hands. Your way of experiencing the game has absolutely nothing to do with the average or even above average consumer.

[facefist]

So you are basically a person with way too much free time on his hands. Your way of experiencing the game has absolutely nothing to do with the average or even above average consumer.

I raid 2x 3h a week and don't play much more than that. You probably raid more and achieve less. I doubt I play more than average wow player.

The difference is not time, but skill, even though people stuck on HC want to believe that it's about time. I agree that on average players are pretty bad, since killing a few mythic bosses is not exactly a hard feat. Time is wrong measure though.

[tomten]

You've proven again you don't even know the basic mechanics of the game and are unable to read patch notes. There's nothing worth in discussing with someone that believes in wrong things, so i'm out.

Feel free to take this as a win or whatever you feel like.

What exactly are those "basic mechanics" im wrong about? I'm genuinely curious. Because I play the game and know for a fact how it works, you read "patch notes" and think you do.

[Celement]

I raid 2x 3h a week and don't play much more than that. You probably raid more and achieve less. I doubt I play more than average wow player.

The difference is not time, but skill, even though people stuck on HC want to believe that it's about time. I agree that on average players are pretty bad, since killing a few mythic bosses is not exactly a hard feat. Time is wrong measure though.

I always feel a weird disconnect from how most mythic level players play and the perception of how they play.

Usually the most elitist and strict followers of the meta are 15 keys and heroic raiders. Most 20-25 keys and ce raiders are way more laid back then that group.

[facefist]

I always feel a weird disconnect from how most mythic level players play and the perception of how they play.

Usually the most elitist and strict followers of the meta are 15 keys and heroic raiders. Most 20-25 keys and ce raiders are way more laid back then that group.

Exactly. But that is human nature, you don't want to admit that someone is just better, but instead come up with excuses. In WoW the excuse is usually "they are nolifers".

Sure, top20 guilds usually raid a lot. But HC guilds often have that same 2-4x 3-4hour raid schedule that 99% of mythic guilds have. The difference is that mythic is so punishing for personal mistakes, that the average skill in a HC guild just isn't enough, no matter how much they play.

[LanToaster]

If you don't raid to experience the raid in the first place, there is a problem.

And if many players choose to not go through that experience, maybe the problem lies within the raid design.

This. I run a Weekly Heroic raid since basically forever. Most (like 80-90%, myself included) of the People run M+ aswell, so the gear from the raid is irrelevant. But we do it anyway, because its fun. And we also do M+ because its fun.

If you think M+ is no fun, and Raiding is no fun, and the only reason you are/would do either is because of the Loot, maybe its time to move on. Or try to find the fun in playing the game, and not trying to find fun in getting rewards.
Obviously the Question if the Raid/Dungeons are fun is a highly subjective matter, and there is no definitive answer. Some people will like a given Raid/Dungeon, some wont. Any other aspect of Raiding/Mythic+ I wont get my hopes up of there changing anything.

[ClassicPeon]

I raid 2x 3h a week and don't play much more than that. You probably raid more and achieve less. I doubt I play more than average wow player.

The difference is not time, but skill, even though people stuck on HC want to believe that it's about time. I agree that on average players are pretty bad, since killing a few mythic bosses is not exactly a hard feat. Time is wrong measure though.

I legitimately do not know what to say to that. To me it just sounds extremely pretentious.

You dont kill mythic bosses in the first week by that standard - otherwise please feel free to give up some logs.

The narcassism here is so tangible i can peel it off.

I dont know where you are getting your numbers from but i'd be really - really interested in knowing that.

Personally i raid 1x 3 hours a week and clear hc within a month - usually. In the end of SL we just skipped it cus the gear was pointless and we arent enough to do mythic.

Anyway - do you have some logs to show off? Because from what i know raiding 6 hours a week is far below standard for guilds killing mythic bosses inthe first week while also gearing up from hc.

[facefist]

I legitimately do not know what to say to that. To me it just sounds extremely pretentious.

You dont kill mythic bosses in the first week by that standard - otherwise please feel free to give up some logs.

The narcassism here is so tangible i can peel it off.

I dont know where you are getting your numbers from but i'd be really - really interested in knowing that.

Personally i raid 1x 3 hours a week and clear hc within a month - usually. In the end of SL we just skipped it cus the gear was pointless and we arent enough to do mythic.

Anyway - do you have some logs to show off? Because from what i know raiding 6 hours a week is far below standard for guilds killing mythic bosses inthe first week while also gearing up from hc.

The insecurity is so tangible I can peel it off. Being a HC raider is fine, but you don't need to throw in the typical "I have better things to do with my time" when it's actually about skill and not time.

It takes you literally 30secs to find the amount of guilds killing mythic bosses in the first week with 1-2 raids a week. That's better evidence than me posting a log for you.

Now it's your turn to provide me logs. I doubt you clear HC in first month since in other thread you said that you start with normal (another proof that your guild is not mythic level no matter the time you spend).

[Soikona]

I've not noticed an effect on the mythic raid scene but usually there are a lot less loot driven players there then people outside of it assume.

Sadly there are as many meter whores wiping raids as they assume though...

Basically this. A small group would prefer to wipe if they duck up their rotation….

[ClassicPeon]

The insecurity is so tangible I can peel it off. Being a HC raider is fine, but you don't need to throw in the typical "I have better things to do with my time" when it's actually about skill and not time.

It takes you literally 30secs to find the amount of guilds killing mythic bosses in the first week with 1-2 raids a week. That's better evidence than me posting a log for you.

Now it's your turn to provide me logs. I doubt you clear HC in first month since in other thread you said that you start with normal (another proof that your guild is not mythic level no matter the time you spend).

We didnt start with normal we did normal this tier because of tier sets.

I call bs on you - it seems like you dont even know what raiding was like this last tier.

I am not the one making outrageous claims or claiming that i am just per default a better player(like an actual child lol)