[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The CGI *is* a problem, but it's not unique to She-Hulk, it has been plagueing Marvel for years.

The core issue is that Marvel/Disney simply isn't giving the animators either the time nor the resources that they need. Marvel projects are infamous for being crunch heavy, and so the CGI has been and looks rushed for years.

This is not a Marvel/Disney problem. This is an industry problem.

how it works is that these projects are offered out on a bidding system...and typically the lowest bid is what wins the contract. So the VFX companies put in a low bid, Disney (or WB, Paramount, etc) accepts the low bid, andd then the animators are stuck working on a project that their company bid too low on.

[Kraenen]

I guess you'd be into this show if you were a super hardcore Marvel fan. Otherwise I think it'd be off-putting to watch essentially the same thing for so long at this point. These Marvel products feel like just that.

[Endus]

I guess you'd be into this show if you were a super hardcore Marvel fan. Otherwise I think it'd be off-putting to watch essentially the same thing for so long at this point. These Marvel products feel like just that.

See also literally every single long-running franchise in history.

[Strawberry]

This may come as a shock to you...but The Hulk is also CGI....

The actor wasn't.
This looks like the actress herself is CGI.

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You must be new to the MCU. It's motion capture. I think it's the same thing they did with Thanos but I'm not so sure. I think flat out putting green paint on the actress would've been worse.

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This thread is pretty toxic ngl. Everytime I look at it it's always some argument going on.

I have seen all Marvel movies. This one just looks weird. Perhaps because they did that to the main actress.

[paxen]

This is not a Marvel/Disney problem. This is an industry problem.

how it works is that these projects are offered out on a bidding system...and typically the lowest bid is what wins the contract. So the VFX companies put in a low bid, Disney (or WB, Paramount, etc) accepts the low bid, andd then the animators are stuck working on a project that their company bid too low on.

I'm not the best informed, but my impression is that Marvel is especially bad at it. The video I linked earlier had several quotes from industry professionals that singled out Marvel projects as being especially bad to work on.

[Endus]

I'm not the best informed, but my impression is that Marvel is especially bad at it. The video I linked earlier had several quotes from industry professionals that singled out Marvel projects as being especially bad to work on.

Every time I've looked at those, it's always been a case that Marvel is a difficult and demanding client, but the actual villains causing overwork and stress and rushing the process, that's the VFX companies themselves. They want the big client, they want to offer a low price and get the work, and they don't care how roughshod they have to run over their employees to get it done.

That's not Marvel's actual fault, in the end. Blame the VFX companies, and get VFX workers to unionize properly industry-wide to cut down this exploitation. Blaming the client because your boss is an abusive prick is not really a valid criticism.

[paxen]

That's not Marvel's actual fault, in the end. Blame the VFX companies, and get VFX workers to unionize properly industry-wide to cut down this exploitation. Blaming the client because your boss is an abusive prick is not really a valid criticism.

I think both are at fault here. The demanding client is causing pressure on the companies, who happily pass it on to their employees. Marvel doesn't get to wash their hands of this simply because they outsource the VFX.

[Biomega]

I'm not the best informed, but my impression is that Marvel is especially bad at it. The video I linked earlier had several quotes from industry professionals that singled out Marvel projects as being especially bad to work on.

That's a two-way street. Bad companies help create bad clients, too. If you just go head-nodding and promising the moon because you don't want to lose a client, you're absolutely culpable - knowing that you can't deliver and/or that delivering what you promised will fall back on your employees in a seriously bad way is on YOU, not on your client.

Of course all clients want everything done in the minimum amount of time, for the minimum cost, and at maximum quality. Your job as a company is to know what can and cannot be done realistically, how much time it takes, and how much it costs - and then make your client understand that. The fact that low-bid contract shenanigans undermine that process is deplorable, but that only works because the companies involved are complicit. If they all said this low and no lower, clients would accept it. The reason they can go lower still is because they're squeezing that out of their employees, not because the client is "forcing them". That "force" is purely the result of... other companies ALSO squeezing their employees.

There's a desperate need for intervention here, to create working conditions and negotiating bases that don't just offload everything onto lower rungs in the ladder, and that don't actively foster outrageous client behavior.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The actor wasn't.
This looks like the actress herself is CGI.

She isn't.

I have seen all Marvel movies. This one just looks weird. Perhaps because they did that to the main actress.

They didn't do anything to the main actress. Her Hulk form is CGI...just like with Mark Ruffalo.

"Better to stay silent and risk looking a fool...than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. "

[SavoirFaire]

Another solid episode. The fightscene was amusing, she really couldnt care less

As much as I’d like to see a normally powered wrecking crew (which is potentially dangerous to she-hulk) the way they were done was clever and fun. The larger background plot is being teased, hopefully it starts to move along faster the next few episodes.

As with any CGI discussion, I really wonder if the age of the viewer matters. I’ve found the CGI just fine, and outside of a shot here or there throughout marvel (ruffalo in hulk buster comes to mind), nothing seems that egregious. To put another way, wtf do people expect?

[Endus]

I think both are at fault here. The demanding client is causing pressure on the companies, who happily pass it on to their employees. Marvel doesn't get to wash their hands of this simply because they outsource the VFX.

It's on companies to tell their clients "no" and provide reasonably achievable timetables. If they're willing to take whatever the client asks and pile it on their staff, that's their problem, exclusively. I can't see any blame attaching to the client, or even how such blame could potentially be ascribed.

If I'm getting my house painted and change the color mid-contract and pay extra to have the existing work re-done, it's the paint company who's at fault for making their staff work double overtime to catch up, not me for being choosy. And if I refused to pay extra, the painters should refuse to re-do the work. That's how this stuff works.

[eschatological]

I think Marvel's demands are unreasonable, though. With the frequency and pace of their schedule, and the CGI needs per movie/show constantly increasing, I don't think their demand could ever reasonably be met, time-wise.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I think Marvel's demands are unreasonable, though. With the frequency and pace of their schedule, and the CGI needs per movie/show constantly increasing, I don't think their demand could ever reasonably be met, time-wise.

Than the VFX companies need to tell them that and adjust their fees accordingly.

[paxen]

It's on companies to tell their clients "no" and provide reasonably achievable timetables. If they're willing to take whatever the client asks and pile it on their staff, that's their problem, exclusively. I can't see any blame attaching to the client, or even how such blame could potentially be ascribed.

We're getting more into general corporate practices here, but subcontracting is designed to pulverize responsibility like this. Oh, it's not us who's squeezing the workers, it's our subcontractors. We're ethical, we promise!

Marvel is a giant in the field. If they wanted actually good CGI from workers treated right, they could get it no problem. But instead they're going for the cheapest bid from contractors squeezing their employees.

Yeah, the VFX companies are scum. But so are Marvel here.

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Would just like to state that although I think the CGI in this show is mediocre and is based on shady practices, I really like the rest of the show. Also fun to see Tatiana Maslany getting a big role again, it's criminal that it's taken so long!

[Endus]

We're getting more into general corporate practices here, but subcontracting is designed to pulverize responsibility like this. Oh, it's not us who's squeezing the workers, it's our subcontractors. We're ethical, we promise!

I get that.

If Marvel owned this VFX companies, I'd connect those dots. They don't. This isn't a Marvel problem, it's an industry problem. Shaming Marvel into different practices won't fundamentally change things, unionization among VFX artists is what will solve things.

Does Marvel probably know what they're doing? Probably. But they're trying to get the most for the lowest price they can. That's normal negotiation stuff in business, and is by no means unique. If we were talking about literal sweatshops overseas, I'd take a stronger stance, but this is a case where unionization is eminently possible and labor laws will uphold it.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

We're getting more into general corporate practices here, but subcontracting is designed to pulverize responsibility like this. Oh, it's not us who's squeezing the workers, it's our subcontractors. We're ethical, we promise!

But it also works the other way around too. The VFX companies are like "Yeah, we're overworking our employees...but it's Disney's fault for being such a demanding client. Nevermind the fact that we aggressively went after this gig and put in the lowest bid....they're the problem...not us."

Meanwhile WB, Universal, Sony, etc...are all doing the exact same thing Disney is. Disney is just the company that's eeing the most success right now...so the focus is on thhem...but it would be no different if DCEU films were the blockbuster powerhouse that the MCU is.

That's not to say Disney is blameless...but they're just playing by the rules the industry set for itself.

[Sorrowseer]

Seen the current three episodes, I heard going in endless complaints about the CGI, I just dont see the issue, maybe some people think cgi should not be cgi but indistinguishable from reality, I dunno, looked fine to me, the only downside is its 20~ minute episodes, would have loved chunky 50~min ones

[Ragedaug]

You're shifting the goalposts. The original argument I was responding to was that the show was presenting Jen as perfect from the beginning, and lacked any training montage. I pointed to obvious flaws that were presented, that then led directly into a training montage.

The only flaw you could think of was that she crashed the car. That was not a flaw. That was her trying to avoid hitting the spaceship that dropped out of nowhere right in front of them. The fact that you even brought that up as her "flaw", means you could not think of an actual flaw that they gave her, yet felt like continuing to argue the point anyway.

See, when you lie that blatantly and deliberately, I know there's no possible conversation to be had with you. You're arguing against a fantasy that exists only in your own head, not the actual show as it's actually broadcast.

There was no training montage. You can't name a single thing that they showed her weak at, where Bruce was able to help her get better at. So since you could not refute this point, you decided to personally attack me so you could dismiss my argument instead of addressing it. I suspect calling folks who are trying to disagree with you "liar" is at least frowned upon by the mods, but even if it was allowed, it prohibits any type of conversation.

So to your point, it's not possible for you to have a conversation with me because you won't provide any evidence to back up your point, but instead you just attack me and pronounce "you are wrong", then run away from the argument.

[paxen]

Seen the current three episodes, I heard going in endless complaints about the CGI, I just dont see the issue, maybe some people think cgi should not be cgi but indistinguishable from reality, I dunno, looked fine to me, the only downside is its 20~ minute episodes, would have loved chunky 50~min ones

CGI is perfectly capable of being indistinguishable! But that takes time and money, which Marvel doesn't want to spend. Honestly, it's fine for a show like She-Hulk, which leans much more on writing and acting, and the show has that in spades. It's the huge blockbusters that still skimp on the CGI that annoys me.

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But it also works the other way around too. The VFX companies are like "Yeah, we're overworking our employees...but it's Disney's fault for being such a demanding client. Nevermind the fact that we aggressively went after this gig and put in the lowest bid....they're the problem...not us."

I did say that the VFX companies bears an equal responsibility for this. That just means they're all shitty, it doesn't make Marvel less shitty.

Meanwhile WB, Universal, Sony, etc...are all doing the exact same thing Disney is. Disney is just the company that's eeing the most success right now...so the focus is on thhem...but it would be no different if DCEU films were the blockbuster powerhouse that the MCU is.

That's not to say Disney is blameless...but they're just playing by the rules the industry set for itself.

By all accounts they're not doing the same thing Disney does. Marvel/Disney is too often singled out as the worst client.

Disney is the top dog at this point in time, and they've chosen to use it to pressure everybody to give them more for less. You can say, hey, that's just capitalism, but that's an argument for burning capitalism in a trash fire, you know.

See also #disneymustpay for how Disney is choosing to use their power to flat out steal from creators.

[Kumorii]

Great engagement for three straight weeks.

Curious since you have experience with this.
Considering how engagement is much more important than likes / dislikes in of themselves. It almost starts to feel that it's almost on purpose to make divisive content, as in they know it will spark debate depending on how you interpret a scene or intentions.

Creators on youtube learns over time and plenty of them play into it. Wouldn't creators of movies and tv-shows also fall into the same patterns because it works, even if not necessarily on a conscious level?

Which would explain why nowadays the most hyped stuff in entertainment feels so similar.