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  1. #81
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    5 man instances are overused because Blizz has been too lazy to provide as many dungeons as they used to (BC and Wrath had 16 dungeons each).

    People can't fill up their 20 mans because a) the game is dying (yes, it is still quite popular, but dying none-the-less), and b) people are burned out from doing Normal, then Heroic, and then expected to do Mythic of the same old tiring raid instance. BC had 8 raids and Wrath had 9 raids. Say what you will about the quality of some, the fact of the matter is that you weren't running the same raid forever for the same gear you already had only a few numbers higher.

    The actual solution is for Blizz to actually build content, but they are too cheap to do so.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    People often have the delusion life should only be easy and fun; life must never be hard because it is a "sin"; we must always strive to make it easier and more fun and more flawless without any difficulty because that's always superior supposedly.
    That's a blatant case of cognitive dissonance in this case (i.e. a contradiction of sentiment); you want to go through the hardest raiding in the game which is explicitly hard and painful; at the same time you proclaim you want it painless.
    Since you're not a pathological masochist: you do it because you want it hard, because humans are hardwired to struggle, and in that frame of thought they care about rankings that are fair because they rank their painful work.
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Right because lack of gear wasn't a major shit show at the start of the expansion.

    *checks foruns" oh wait it was a major shit show obviously
    wait what?

  4. #84
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    5 man instances are overused because Blizz has been too lazy to provide as many dungeons as they used to (BC and Wrath had 16 dungeons each).

    People can't fill up their 20 mans because a) the game is dying (yes, it is still quite popular, but dying none-the-less), and b) people are burned out from doing Normal, then Heroic, and then expected to do Mythic of the same old tiring raid instance. BC had 8 raids and Wrath had 9 raids. Say what you will about the quality of some, the fact of the matter is that you weren't running the same raid forever for the same gear you already had only a few numbers higher.

    The actual solution is for Blizz to actually build content, but they are too cheap to do so.
    I do think the content team is pressed to the hilt with new xpacs etc - I wish they would release content at the Legion release speed.. that was insane. Also I think PVP deserves some content love too: more bg's more things to do fammmm

    I hope they spend money where it counts because if not: your post will be 'dead on'

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    No, because the maps will be unique in 20man. People would want to do them because only 20man would have them.

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    No, because 20man will have unique maps. People would want to do them because only 20man will have them.

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    No, because if 20man mythic should be easy then the race (and any other rankings below it) would be meaningless and people would hate that.

    As I said: people have a delusion they want everything easy but in reality: competition would not exist at all if it was easy.

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    Absolutely not necessarily. This is strictly about hard mode. If 20man hard mode was easy then the race (and any other rankings below that) would be meaningless and it would ruin the competition and all the excitement people get from that.

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    You absolutely cannot, at the highest levels of competition. You are confusing the top 1,000 guilds with the top 50 guilds.

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    People are just unaware how "masochistic" human nature is in reality. E.g. everyone has the delusion they want to sit on a couch all day and watch TV.

    They hate it within a few days because humans are hardwired to have challenge and it's not necessarily consciously obvious that they need that.

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    It doesn't matter what you claim you want, since countless of others do not want that. Also low-rank guilds are often hypocritical when they say "ranks don't matter" because the exact same guilds are celebrating for two hours in chat how are now "10th best in the realm instead of 100th best like last year!".

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    That argument doesn't stand in today's Blizzard design, because they extremely overuse the 5man format and its maps.

    A 10man hard mode format with its own unique maps would be way more epic and grand scale than so much 5man.

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    No; that's a fallacy. It has little to do with just the world first memery. It's also the small guilds that celebrate they are now 10th in their realm instead of 100th that definitely care about rankings and competition (even if they have not turned it into a literal job (they still love it)).

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    Those arguments are weak. If there are unique maps of 10man hardmode then even the 20man guilds would definitely make groups for them and some 5-man-only people would definitely have people for them now and even some new guilds will be created from scratch so they definitely will create more people actually playing.

    The difficulty related arguments are void since it's even worse with 5man now; it's extremely overused and its rewards are extremely good; a 10man hard mode would balance that.

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    You have the delusion "it's only fun", but it's absolutely proven by players' own actions that is definitely for the challenge above all else in this case.

    A hard mode 20man or 10man or 5man is meaningless for the world first race but also the lower rankings if anyone could just be first the first day.

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    It's an experiment that has been done for years and it's not worth it. 10man and 25man coexisted in shared maps and devs never managed to balance it well (because it's mathematically impossible in most (almost all) boss designs) and people (in this very forum as well) were constantly having flamewars about which of the two had the most prestigious/hardest/coolest kills.

    That is why I suggest 10man hard mode on its own unique maps; 5man has them; and it's overused for little reason.

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    That's just a lie/misleading(not every one of them says it), and it's an appeal to authority fallacy anyway. Come up with arguments yourself (and not "big guy X that I admire said it").
    I've never given a shit about what others do in game. Couldn't care less about people claiming to be server 10th or what not. My guild never cared about that. We just got drunk and had fun a few nights a week. So it doesn't matter what others want, I'll never care about it.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    No, because the maps will be unique in 20man. People would want to do them because only 20man would have them.

    - - - Updated - - -


    No, because 20man will have unique maps. People would want to do them because only 20man will have them.

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    No, because if 20man mythic should be easy then the race (and any other rankings below it) would be meaningless and people would hate that.

    As I said: people have a delusion they want everything easy but in reality: competition would not exist at all if it was easy.

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    Absolutely not necessarily. This is strictly about hard mode. If 20man hard mode was easy then the race (and any other rankings below that) would be meaningless and it would ruin the competition and all the excitement people get from that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You absolutely cannot, at the highest levels of competition. You are confusing the top 1,000 guilds with the top 50 guilds.

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    People are just unaware how "masochistic" human nature is in reality. E.g. everyone has the delusion they want to sit on a couch all day and watch TV.

    They hate it within a few days because humans are hardwired to have challenge and it's not necessarily consciously obvious that they need that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It doesn't matter what you claim you want, since countless of others do not want that. Also low-rank guilds are often hypocritical when they say "ranks don't matter" because the exact same guilds are celebrating for two hours in chat how are now "10th best in the realm instead of 100th best like last year!".

    - - - Updated - - -



    That argument doesn't stand in today's Blizzard design, because they extremely overuse the 5man format and its maps.

    A 10man hard mode format with its own unique maps would be way more epic and grand scale than so much 5man.

    - - - Updated - - -




    No; that's a fallacy. It has little to do with just the world first memery. It's also the small guilds that celebrate they are now 10th in their realm instead of 100th that definitely care about rankings and competition (even if they have not turned it into a literal job (they still love it)).

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    Those arguments are weak. If there are unique maps of 10man hardmode then even the 20man guilds would definitely make groups for them and some 5-man-only people would definitely have people for them now and even some new guilds will be created from scratch so they definitely will create more people actually playing.

    The difficulty related arguments are void since it's even worse with 5man now; it's extremely overused and its rewards are extremely good; a 10man hard mode would balance that.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You have the delusion "it's only fun", but it's absolutely proven by players' own actions that is definitely for the challenge above all else in this case.

    A hard mode 20man or 10man or 5man is meaningless for the world first race but also the lower rankings if anyone could just be first the first day.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's an experiment that has been done for years and it's not worth it. 10man and 25man coexisted in shared maps and devs never managed to balance it well (because it's mathematically impossible in most (almost all) boss designs) and people (in this very forum as well) were constantly having flamewars about which of the two had the most prestigious/hardest/coolest kills.

    That is why I suggest 10man hard mode on its own unique maps; 5man has them; and it's overused for little reason.

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    That's just a lie/misleading(not every one of them says it), and it's an appeal to authority fallacy anyway. Come up with arguments yourself (and not "big guy X that I admire said it").
    Riiiiiiiight *I'm* the one that's delusional.... Lulz.

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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Those arguments are weak.
    perhaps, still stronger than so called "arguments" of your lot though, which can be summed to "WHAAAAA I WANT 10MAN RAIDS, WHAAAAA!!!"...
    10man was only ever "popular" when it was FAR EASIER and given the same gear as 25m, so its very unlikely to ever get back, no matter how much the handful of yoy keep whining...deal with it or leave, we dont care in either way

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    a) the game is dying (yes, it is still quite popular, but dying none-the-less), and b) people are burned out from doing Normal, then Heroic, and then expected to do Mythic of the same old tiring raid instance.
    a.) the game is "dying" since vanila, probably even since before, its past prime for sure, but still among the most popular in its genre

    b.) does ANYONE actualy raid normal then heroic and then mythic? honestly, most people i know who raid mythic will gear in keys and jump right into heroic, maybe run normal once to get a feel of it, and even that in x.0 only, in patches they are geared from mythic and jump right into hc (and into mythic asap)...

    but even if people actualy went normal then hc then mythic, how is it worse to run normal for a month, then hc for a month and then mythic for 2+ months than runing the SAME DIFFICULTY for 4+ months as in TBC? or did you back then just run it once and quit? we certainly didnt...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2022-08-17 at 06:46 AM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    So you're really going to sit there and tell me literally no one is going to choose to just do 10 man content rather than 20 man because it's easier to get 10 people together? Isn't that literally your entire fucking argument for why they should create unique 10 man content lmao. Holy fuck you're stupid.

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    Why? I think the ability to raid log, if one chooses, helps keep more people sticking around for raids. Raiding is the only enjoyable part of the game for me. Fuck farming dailies, badges, azerite, torghast or whatever the fuck else. Technically, all optional, but if you wanted to actually be in a competitive guild then it wasn't.
    Because making content optional for people who only want to raidlog makes it optional for everyone else. Mind you that "optional" is just a synonym for "useless".
    We have seen the result in WoD - Nobody does any content outside of raids, the world and the community dies as nobody interacts with each other anymore.

    Its always better to have "too much to do" than not enough.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    5 man instances are overused because Blizz has been too lazy to provide as many dungeons as they used to (BC and Wrath had 16 dungeons each).

    People can't fill up their 20 mans because a) the game is dying (yes, it is still quite popular, but dying none-the-less), and b) people are burned out from doing Normal, then Heroic, and then expected to do Mythic of the same old tiring raid instance. BC had 8 raids and Wrath had 9 raids. Say what you will about the quality of some, the fact of the matter is that you weren't running the same raid forever for the same gear you already had only a few numbers higher.

    The actual solution is for Blizz to actually build content, but they are too cheap to do so.
    BC really doesn't count since the dungeons completely reused the same assets. It had five dungeon hubs, four of which effectively reused the same assets to create multiple dungeons. Wrath had 4 post launch dungeons which helped increase the count (Legion had 2 + 1 megadungeon) and started with so many because an entire zone was scrapped from development and became dungeons instead (Azjol'Nerub); going by Blizzcon we can assume Utgarde Pinnacle and Gun'drak were also scrapped raids that became dungeons.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    BC really doesn't count since the dungeons completely reused the same assets. It had five dungeon hubs, four of which effectively reused the same assets to create multiple dungeons.
    Which is still better than having less dungeons.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Which is still better than having less dungeons.
    Eh I'd rather have fewer dungeons but those dungeons actually have some effort.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Eh I'd rather have fewer dungeons but those dungeons actually have some effort.
    I don't think "reusing assets" means the dungeons are necessarily bad. Like, are Mana CTombs, Auchenai Crypts and Sethekk Halls really that similar? I mean they look a bit alike, but they're really different in my opinion, and all quite good

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Honestly who even already cares about the race to world first? Do I have to say it again that balancing a game for 20-60 people when MILLIONS play it is just asinine at best.
    It has nothing to do with the top 3 guilds. Even the smallest guilds want good competition. It's why they celebrate when they go from rank 20 to rank 12 in their realm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Large and small raid sizes cannot coexist in this game.
    5man is practically a "small raid". Why does that exist? You talk in absolutes without justification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    summed to "WHAAAAA I WANT 10MAN RAIDS, WHAAAAA!!!"...
    Nice strawman. I don't even want 10man more than 20. It's just lame that 5man is overused when 10man could also have a place in hard mode (in unique new maps).

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's pointless to want a world race to be first, where people would not even know who is first and they would be constantly infighting online who had the coolest or hardest kill which was exactly what was happening in this very forum too when 10man and 25man coexisted in shared instances.

    Flex has the same issue because it's inevitably impossible for devs to balance it with random numbers of characters.

    Why would people go through the pain of a hard mode difficulty without even knowing who was the best?
    Its not important that its perfectly balanced. its important that its accessible for the players.

  15. #95
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Introduce 10man hard mode again but: in its own unique instances...
    It's likely that the knock-on effect of this would be less 5-man and raid content. If everyone is OK with that then it's a good idea. If not, then it's an idea that will only drive people out. The other knock-on effect—which has already been mentioned—is the exclusion of non-meta specs from the content.

    But sure, two 5-person dungeons, two 10-person dungeons and the usual assortment of raids would be possible. If anyone thinks that the same amount of 5-person content would be created and then 10's added onto that is dreaming.

    Honestly, the world first race shouldn't come into this at all. It's a non-sanctioned pseudo-event that doesn't mean much of anything as the same 200 people in various combinations dominate it every year.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Introduce 10man hard mode again but: in its own unique instances; that way the numbers would be balanced a lot; not everyone will be shoved into the tiny 5man gametype and the only alternative wouldn't be the hard-to-find-people-for 20man.

    You can't flex it or re-use 20man or 5man instances for it, because we'd have the same problem we had when 10man and 25man were coexisting, constant flamewars in this forum too about what difficulty is the hardest or the coolest.

    As a bonus advantage, the strict metas of a handful of combinations of classes/specs of 5man would open up to more complex combinations of 10man, which doesn't solve it entirely (even 20man has metas) but it's an alleviation.
    I agree with you that it is hard to find people to fill a 20 man, or nowadays just raids in general. However it is because you have a player base that is very small, even with cross faction, the number of people looking to raid is thin due to a lack luster game. My guess is you would run into the same issues with 10 man hard mode, people would rather do Mythic +, get loot from weekly box.

    I think adding flex to Mythic raid would be a better solution then 10 man heroic, however it doesn't fix the issue with a dwindling player base. You will prolly have some good raiding for the first couple months of DF and you will be back to the same issues again.

    Bottom line is more people prefer M+ over raiding and you got less people playing the game. I don't think either of these things are changing at all or at best anytime soon.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Introduce 10man hard mode again but: in its own unique instances; that way the numbers would be balanced a lot; not everyone will be shoved into the tiny 5man gametype and the only alternative wouldn't be the hard-to-find-people-for 20man.

    You can't flex it or re-use 20man or 5man instances for it, because we'd have the same problem we had when 10man and 25man were coexisting, constant flamewars in this forum too about what difficulty is the hardest or the coolest.

    As a bonus advantage, the strict metas of a handful of combinations of classes/specs of 5man would open up to more complex combinations of 10man, which doesn't solve it entirely (even 20man has metas) but it's an alleviation.
    I would rather you could do the raid content as a 5 man group.

  18. #98
    Did you not play during the time we had raids of different sizes at the same time? So much drama from splitting full raid groups into smaller ones. Or dealing with a roster to bloated for the small size but not big enough for the bigger size so to many people get benched, leave and keep guilds jojo-ing trying to scale up but never managing to get there.

    Screw that stuff.
    1 raid size.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Did you not play during the time we had raids of different sizes at the same time? So much drama from splitting full raid groups into smaller ones. Or dealing with a roster to bloated for the small size but not big enough for the bigger size so to many people get benched, leave and keep guilds jojo-ing trying to scale up but never managing to get there.

    Screw that stuff.
    1 raid size.
    Agreed 1 raid size is best.

    20 is not that best size. By any stretch.
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  20. #100
    Solution is very easy. Fuck raids. People are no longer enjoying 4,5,6 hour long raid sessions. Its not 2000's anymore. Deal with it. Raiding is dead. Dont try to revive it. It has to evolve or perish.

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