1. #3721
    So people are still banging on about the heinous decision to force us to see a black person on screen. Have we decided yet how, exactly, their skin color effects the story?

    Which of Arondir's scenes, specifically, would have been improved if he was played by a white guy instead? Was it the one where he was patrolling the town? The one where he got the news that they'd be finishing their duty and going home? The one where he talked with the woman from the village about his feelings? Or maybe it was the one where he was searching for the orcs/source of the corruption in the tunnels.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-05 at 08:25 AM.

  2. #3722
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Proving he's actually still around, and a problem, presumably.

    This is not exactly an uncommon trope - the zealous yet underequipped avenger, chasing their prey across the land. Stopping to think about how this will actually play out is not part of the deal, usually.

    Though one might posit that given the scarcity of any evidence of activity, they could have expected Sauron to be weakened and isolated, hiding alone somewhere; in which case Galadriel might well have considered herself a worthy match for such an opponent. Or, alternatively, her goal might have been simply to prove that Sauron is still a threat, whereupon she could go to Gil-galad and make a case for a full-scale military assault.

    It does make sense, in a way. You don't go searching for an elusive enemy with an entire army. You do that with a small, mobile scouting party. That doesn't mean it's what you use to attack eventually - finding your quarry merely comes first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    First step is to prove he is still around, that is all we know.
    It's been 2 episodes in a probably multi season serie so your question is a bit early
    I mean, you are correct to begin with, Galadriel is an avenger, driven by revenge. That is what the writers have told us.

    She has no plan and is willing to abandon the soldiers she is commanding just to keep the pursuit for Sauron going.
    To think she would stop, retreat and regroup if she found Sauron has no grounds from what we have been shown so far. Galadriel is also certain that Sauron is still out there and does not seem to care what others think about that fact. Further, Sauron being around is enough for him to being a problem. The only time he is not would be when he is entirely defeated. The characters in the show knows this as we have been told about his immense power. They rather pretend he is gone than entertain the idea that he is not.

    Speaking of Saurons power; i think even a weakened Sauron would be way stronger than an ice troll and would demolish Galadriel and her party. That would actually have been a good thing as Galadriel really needs a reality check and a nerf to the Mary Sue powers that she has (ye, i know you are gonna attack this). We can at least hope they go for the (somewhat predictable) twist of Halbrand being Sauron and the dilemma Galadriel faces due to the feelings she develops for Halbrand. I think that would be a good way of adding some much needed layers to a very one dimensional main character.

    So in what season are they to justify what happens in the first 2 episodes which are supposed to capture the viewer? S3? S4? Come on.. I don't get why so many through this thread is so hellbent on defending the flaws and bad writing.

    It's not entirely bad. Khazad-Dum was ok and Princess Disa was surprisingly enjoyable. She added quite some warmth to an otherwise stone cold environment.

  3. #3723
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Again, a black elf among a people of fair skin elf is not logic. Same for a dark skin dwarf princess (and without beard!) among a white colored people. While those people are isolationist. That is just immersion breaking.
    Why are you calling them isolationist? The First Age saw mass migrations throughout Middle-earth with the arrival of the Noldor, Awakening of Men, centuries of warfare and sinking of half the continent. On top of that Arondir is a soldier stationed for from home, so even if you want to imagine skintone as an evolved trait and not down to the whim of Illuvatar (who furnishes each new fëa of his Children with a suitable hröa) then Arondir being far from home is reason enough for him to differ from the people around him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    If I recall correctly, female dwarf can't be distinguish from male dwarf. Because of the beard and that their physical trait resemble those of male dwarf.

    A shaved beard is a great dishonor if I remember well.
    Later notes on the subject of beards has Tolkien state that "all MALE dwarves have them." The emphasis on "male" (shown in Nature of Middle-earth though I haven't seen the original handwritten letter) shows he was backing away from the idea of female dwarves wearing beards. To a Tolkien purist showing Disa without a beard should be less offensive than Aragorn, Boromir and Faramir being shown bearded in the movies.

  4. #3724
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    So people are still banging on about the heinous decision to force us to see a black person on screen. Have we decided yet how, exactly, their skin color effects the story?

    Which of Arondir's scenes, specifically, would have been improved if he was played by a white guy instead? Was it the one where he was patrolling the town? The one where he got the news that they'd be finishing their duty and going home? The one where he talked with the woman from the village about his feelings? Or maybe it was the one where he was searching for the orcs/source of the corruption in the tunnels.
    The question you are asking is the akin to asking "Would the scene in LOTR when Gandalf comes to the rescue at helms deep be any worse off if he used flashbangs instead of magic?"

    There is nothing wrong with flashbangs, but for them to be there requires a more modern setting.

  5. #3725
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Why are you calling them isolationist?
    Even if they were isolationists, I can't understand what that has to do with it. Unless his presumption is that the only reason they'd have different skin colors is that they were interbreeding with other races...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    The question you are asking is the akin to asking "Would the scene in LOTR when Gandalf comes to the rescue at helms deep be any worse off if he used flashbangs instead of magic?"

    There is nothing wrong with flashbangs, but for them to be there requires a more modern setting.
    rofl

    Once again resorting to complete horseshit because the answer to my question is, in fact "no, his skin color has no bearing on the scenes he's in."
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-05 at 10:29 AM.

  6. #3726
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Even if they were isolationists, I can't understand what that has to do with it. Unless his presumption is that the only reason they'd have different skin colors is that they were interbreeding with other races...



    rofl

    Once again resorting to complete horseshit because the answer to my question is, in fact "no, his skin color has no bearing on the scenes he's in."
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.

    It is also funny how a team of elves looking for a demigod got their asses kicked by a troll.

  7. #3727
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.

    It is also funny how a team of elves looking for a demigod got their asses kicked by a troll.
    Real discourse does not count points, nor does it award "wins" or "losses". Trying to catch someone on a forum on "rules" is a bit weird.

    To get back to the point at hand, I do believe you present a false analogy with "gandalf using flashbangs". Though the outcome there would be similar, gandalf having access to such technology makes one wonder why he did not use such in different situations. Something that most definitely impacts the story.

    Unless Arondir's skin allows him to do something or prevents him from doing something a white elf could, there is no such impact, as I see it. But perhaps you'd like to present arguments on why it DOES have an impact on the story?

    Also, can anyone enlighten me on the "political agenda" being pushed in the show? I hear the argument a lot but unless you believe black people on screen or a woman not relegated to cooking is political, I don't see it.
    Last edited by Veggie50; 2022-09-05 at 10:52 AM.

  8. #3728
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.
    A counter argument to what? Skin color has nothing to do with what sort of technology people have access to. It requires no argument other than to point out how laughable the comparison is. Obviously.

    The irony of you bringing that up, specifically, is the fact that Saruman chose to use an explosive/alchemical concoction to bring down the wall of the castle instead of using his magic...
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-05 at 11:06 AM.

  9. #3729
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.
    how can anyone respond to a stupid analogy about 'modernisation' using gandalf and flashbangs being compared to having a black character with anything other than mockery and derision?

    seriously when you typed it did you think 'yup thats it, gottem'?

    while also not giving any thought to the question.

    smooooooth

  10. #3730
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Real discourse does not count points, nor does it award "wins" or "losses". Trying to catch someone on a forum on "rules" is a bit weird.

    To get back to the point at hand, I do believe you present a false analogy with "gandalf using flashbangs". Though the outcome there would be similar, gandalf having access to such technology makes one wonder why he did not use such in different situations. Something that most definitely impacts the story.

    Unless Arondir's skin allows him to do something or prevents him from doing something a white elf could, there is no such impact, as I see it. But perhaps you'd like to present arguments on why it DOES have an impact on the story?

    Also, can anyone enlighten me on the "political agenda" being pushed in the show? I hear the argument a lot but unless you believe black people on screen or a woman not relegated to cooking is political, I don't see it.
    Indeed it does call into question why Gandalf doesn't use that ability more often, what situations would you suggest it would be useful in?

    Again, travel is not an easy task, to have an active mix, be that of culture or color or any other things you wish to mix, requires frequent travel, something that requires technology. You would not walk to mount doom and back ever in your lifetime if you lived in Hobbiton, it is dangerous and doesn't do you much good, you would only travel if it was easy, strictly necessary, or if you had clear monetary incentives. It's the same reason we don't see elves architecture in Hobbiton, or the brutalist style of mordor used anywhere else.

    There are much better ways to evolve the story, something I've not seen anyone argue against, what is wrong with having a ship from Rhûn arrive in port, carrying a full crew of easterlings, perhaps there to pay tribute to the king in exchange for access to protection, or to offer an alliance? It would place 2 different people in proximity without seeming arbitrary or forced.
    What is wrong with creating a realistic scenario, and introducing the characters that way? Can you explain this to me?
    The way it's done is not realistic for a medieval fantasy where it takes ages to travel, the way I'd like it done would have just as many roles for characters of color, but it would be a natural way to move them into the story?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    how can anyone respond to a stupid analogy about 'modernisation' using gandalf and flashbangs being compared to having a black character with anything other than mockery and derision?

    seriously when you typed it did you think 'yup thats it, gottem'?

    while also not giving any thought to the question.

    smooooooth
    I feel you are just as stupid when you suggest people run halfways across the world several times in their life. Did you ever run to another continent yourself? probably not. Don't be smug when you look just as stupid to me.

  11. #3731
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I imagine he also isn't a fantasy elf in a fantasy world.
    That is the same argument as Gandalf throwing flashbangs because its just fiction right? Which was my original point I was making.
    Fiction needs limitations, any story with limitations unbound becomes uninteresting straight away.
    Last edited by Sialina; 2022-09-05 at 11:16 AM.

  12. #3732
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Well whatever the case I would be fine with them removing scores for 1 or 2... but for 3-5 is a bit sad, cos I would certainly rate the first episode a 5/10 myself, with the second being a 7/10. Also there could be some constructive reviews in the 4 - 5 rating areas. I wouldn't be against anyone rating the show so far a 4/10 so far.

    I can image they are deleting them to allow the rage of people to calm down then open the gates over a certain amount of time so the outrage isn't as fresh or as many. sure some of the baiters will return to downvote, but it wont be as many so it will still create a more honest overall review instead of the kneejerk outrage.

    this is why I rate by season and not by episode, I wont post my review until then. So this sort of thing serves me well enough
    By your own subjective metrics you've deduced, that any review below 4 cannot be constructive by default?
    Honestly, I started watching the series without the whole "LotR purist" background. And still, couldn't be disappointed more. From me, it's been 3/10 at best. I really struggled watching these 2 episodes which saddened me deeply.
    CGI, as beatiful as it is (after all it's 90mils poured into a single episode), it's absolutely EVERYWHERE. Authenticity is almost non-existent. Dialogs are probably the worst part of this show so far. Character development is just a massive exposition.

    These two episode can easily be summed up with: tell, don't show, which is an anti-pattern of story-writing, backed with a hollywood-scale budget.

  13. #3733
    As far as the argument here. A more suitable one may be....

    Is having a random black actor playing an elf any different from having one of the dwarves be 6'5" ?

    If the dwarves have this one random guy who is super tall in their ranks, but still a dwarf, wouldn't that make you go "hey whats going on there?"

    They could come up with an explanation for it, as the audience would want one, however without it the immersion in the story would be broken.

    Same thing if Black Panther had one of the Dora Milaje as a slight Japanese woman. Does it change the story? Not really, but it would make the audience go "hey, where did she come from?"

    What changes like that do is show "the hand of the author". They are changes that are world immersion breaking. You can incorporate them, if you tell your story appropriately and give the audience a reason to go "ah I see, carry on". However, if you just make random changes without the explanation, it tells the audience that "this change wasn't made because of the story, but because the creator wanted it for a reason that isn't the story".

    Random black elf, random tall dwarf, random asian Wakandan..... all of them CAN be, but the story demands you tell us WHY they are, because otherwise it tells the audience that you don't have any consistency in your story.

  14. #3734
    The way Tolkien wrote middle earth and set up the lore is very specific. There are a lot of parts to it.
    And he was always outspoken that his "world" was to be respected as specific as if it was a real place with real history and mythology.
    Therefore, this is why above all else, he rejected attempts to call it an allegory for something in the real world.
    His work was a world unto itself with its own dynamics, mysteries and interaction of forces that stood independently of anything else.
    That is why so many people reject Amazon and other studios doing what they typically do, which is to take something like this and change it repeatedly.

    If you are going to do an adaptation of Tolkien, then you should be sticking to his wishes and what he actually wrote.
    That doesn't mean there aren't large areas of that world that are not written about in detail and cannot be fleshed out.
    But that fleshing out shouldn't be contradicting or going against what he established within that world.

    As such the basic idea boils down to the Valar are angelic demigods and among them is Melkor the incarnation of discord and corruption (ie. evil). His inherent nature is to work against the other valar which represent other aspects of the forces within the universe created by Eru Iluvatar. Eru created Arda and allowed the Valar to work in shaping it and before the age of the trees there was the age of the lamps which were put out by Melkor. Then came the age of the trees when the world was illuminated by the two trees and the various sentient species began to awaken. Most of these species were created by Eru Iluvatar but a few were molded by the Valar, including the Ents, Dwarves and Eagles, but given life by Eru. Only Eru had the power to give life and it is because of this that Melkor was also supremely jealous.

    For each species, a few fully formed 'fathers and mothers' of each was awakened fully formed in Arda at a specific time, starting with Elves.
    They were always the highest in this pecking order given favor by Eru with eternal life and also favored by the Valar.
    In being able to dwell with the Valar, that made them among the most knowledgeable and sophisticated of all the species.
    Both Dwarves and Elves awakened during the Age of Trees, while men awakened during the first age.
    And all of them awakened to the east of the continent of Middle Earth, except for the dwarves who awakened in caves.

    Dwarves:
    The medievalist Charles Moseley described the dwarves of Tolkien's legendarium as "Old Norse" in their names, their feuds, and their revenges.[2] In the appendix on "Durin's Folk" in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien describes dwarves as:

    a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands, and there has been enmity between the races.[T 1]

    The J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia considers Tolkien's use of the adjective "thrawn", noting its similarity with Þráinn, a noun meaning "obstinate person", and a name found in the Norse list of Dwarf-names, the Dvergatal in the Völuspá. Tolkien took it for the name, Thráin, of two of Thorin Oakenshield's ancestors. It suggests this may have been a philological joke on Tolkien's part.[1]

    Dwarves were long-lived, with a lifespan of some 250 years.[T 1] They breed slowly, for no more than a third of them are female, and not all marry. Tolkien names only one female, Dís, Thorin's sister.[T 2] They are still considered children in their 20s, as Thorin was at age 24;[T 3] and as "striplings" in their 30s. Despite his young age, Dáin Ironfoot was 32 when he killed Azog, the orc chieftain of Moria.[T 1] They had children starting in their 90s.[T 1]

    The Dwarves are described as "the most redoubtable warriors of all the Speaking Peoples"[T 4] – a warlike race who fought fiercely against their enemies, including other Dwarves.[T 5] Highly skilled in the making of weapons and armour, their main weapon was the battle axe, but they also used bows, swords, shields and mattocks, and wore armour.[T
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)

    Elves:
    Germanic word

    The modern English word elf derives from the Old English word ælf (which has cognates in all other Germanic languages).[1] Numerous types of elves appear in Germanic mythology; the West Germanic concept appears to have come to differ from the Scandinavian notion in the early Middle Ages, and the Anglo-Saxon concept diverged even further, possibly under Celtic influence.[2] Tolkien made it clear in a letter that his Elves differed from those "of the better known lore"[T 1] of Scandinavian mythology.[3]

    Halfway beings

    The Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey notes that one Middle English source which he presumes Tolkien must have read, the South English Legendary from c. 1250, describes elves much as Tolkien does:

    South English Legendary "St Michael" 253-258
    And ofte in fourme of wommane : In many derne weye
    grete compaygnie mon i-seoth of heom : boþe hoppie and pleiƺe,
    Þat Eluene beoth i-cleopede : and ofte heo comiez to toune,
    And bi daye muche in wodes heo beoth : and bi niƺte ope heiƺe dounes.
    Þat beoth þe wrechche gostes : Þat out of heuene weren i-nome,
    And manie of heom a-domesday : Ʒeot schullen to reste come.[5]

    Modern English
    And often shaped like women: On many secret paths
    men see great numbers of them: dancing and sporting.
    These are called Elves: and often they come to town
    and by day they are much in the woods: by night up on the high downs.
    Those are the wretched spirits: that were taken out of Heaven,
    And at Doomsday many of them shall come to rest.

    Some of Tolkien's Elves are in the "undying lands" of Valinor, home of the godlike Valar, while others are in Middle-earth. The Elf-queen Galadriel indeed has been expelled from Valinor, much like the fallen Melkor, though she is clearly good, and much like an angel. Similarly, some of the Legendary's Eluene are on Earth, others in the "Earthly Paradise". So, did they have souls, Shippey asks? Since they could not leave the world, the answer was no; but given that they didn't disappear completely on death, the answer had to have been yes. In Shippey's view, the Silmarillion resolved the Middle English puzzle, letting Elves go not to Heaven but to the halfway house of the Halls of Mandos on Valinor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Middle-earth)


    Among these groups there are various splits among them based on their history since the first awakening. And generally this is where we begin to see the differentiation in features among them generally. (But remember the biology in Middle Earth is not like our Earth, there is no evolution from apes in this. Generally the variation among any species was directly crafted prior to the awakening and only inhereted, unless affected by other things as mentioned below.) Among the elves, the first among them is the split between those who left and followed the call of the Valar to settle in Valinor. This idea of going to the West became also a key distinction among the men who awakened in Middle Earth. And generally for both men or elves the distinction between those who went east and those who did not is represented as a contrast between those of the light and those of darkness. Part of this is due to the age of trees being defined by the light of the two trees in Valinor and therefore moving to the West meant moving to that illumination. But also moving to the west also referred to moving towards the knowledge and wisdom of the Valar while for men it meant moving to the lands of the Elves who had received many of the gifts of knowledge and sophistication from the Valar. That idea of some elves or men being of the darkness does not necessarily indicate anything outwardly different in appearance as it is primarily about knowledge, wisdom and the light of the trees. However, there are some physical differences described between the two groups. So, in the case of those elves who settled in valinor they were considered the fairest of the Elves in skin, hair and eyes, such as Galadriel whose hair reflected the light of the two trees. However, it is also a fact that since the creation of Arda, Melkor always dwelled in the darkness of arda and thus worked to corrupt those farthest from the West and the Realm of the Valar. That is a big reason for him mostly working among those men of the South and the East of Middle Earth. And it is in the South and East of Arda that you also have the darkest populations. As a result the North West regions of Middle Earth are therefore the lands that he most wanted to take and those are the lands that are most covered in detail in the stories of Tolkien with ties to English history and myth. And these are the heroes and legendary travelers written about in his books.f

    https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Light_of_Valinor
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-05 at 01:04 PM.

  15. #3735
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Indeed it does call into question why Gandalf doesn't use that ability more often, what situations would you suggest it would be useful in?

    Again, travel is not an easy task, to have an active mix, be that of culture or color or any other things you wish to mix, requires frequent travel, something that requires technology. You would not walk to mount doom and back ever in your lifetime if you lived in Hobbiton, it is dangerous and doesn't do you much good, you would only travel if it was easy, strictly necessary, or if you had clear monetary incentives. It's the same reason we don't see elves architecture in Hobbiton, or the brutalist style of mordor used anywhere else.

    There are much better ways to evolve the story, something I've not seen anyone argue against, what is wrong with having a ship from Rhûn arrive in port, carrying a full crew of easterlings, perhaps there to pay tribute to the king in exchange for access to protection, or to offer an alliance? It would place 2 different people in proximity without seeming arbitrary or forced.
    What is wrong with creating a realistic scenario, and introducing the characters that way? Can you explain this to me?
    The way it's done is not realistic for a medieval fantasy where it takes ages to travel, the way I'd like it done would have just as many roles for characters of color, but it would be a natural way to move them into the story?



    I feel you are just as stupid when you suggest people run halfways across the world several times in their life. Did you ever run to another continent yourself? probably not. Don't be smug when you look just as stupid to me.
    So if I understand you correctly, the only argument you have against a black elf appearing in an unexplained fashion, is suspension of disbelief.

    Do you see my point that suspension of disbelief about a black elf gives a certain impression, of the suspension of disbelief around dragons, wizards, felbeasts, flat worlds that get curved by wrath of gods etc, does not?

  16. #3736
    After skimming some of the posts in this thread... by Gandalfs beard some of you need to relax a bit and take a good long hard look at yourselves.

  17. #3737
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    So if I understand you correctly, the only argument you have against a black elf appearing in an unexplained fashion, is suspension of disbelief.

    Do you see my point that suspension of disbelief about a black elf gives a certain impression, of the suspension of disbelief around dragons, wizards, felbeasts, flat worlds that get curved by wrath of gods etc, does not?
    As I said above, much like a tall dwarf.

    Can it happen? Sure, but you're going to need to explain it. The world you are speaking of has dragons, wizards, etc. The audience buys into that when they delve into the story. If all the elves are pale, then you need to explain the dark skinned one. If all the dwarves are short, you need to explain the tall one.

    If all the dragons are evil monsters, the polite, kind one is going to need an explanation.

    When you have a world with the rules set up, and then you break them, you need to explain WHY they broke or else the audience loses their ability to "accept this world". You can do it, but you need to give it a reason that works inside the world you are playing in.

  18. #3738
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    As I said above, much like a tall dwarf.

    Can it happen? Sure, but you're going to need to explain it. The world you are speaking of has dragons, wizards, etc. The audience buys into that when they delve into the story. If all the elves are pale, then you need to explain the dark skinned one. If all the dwarves are short, you need to explain the tall one.

    If all the dragons are evil monsters, the polite, kind one is going to need an explanation.

    When you have a world with the rules set up, and then you break them, you need to explain WHY they broke or else the audience loses their ability to "accept this world". You can do it, but you need to give it a reason that works inside the world you are playing in.
    you are asking to be spoonfed like a baby instead of being able to read between the lines.

  19. #3739
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    So if I understand you correctly, the only argument you have against a black elf appearing in an unexplained fashion, is suspension of disbelief.

    Do you see my point that suspension of disbelief about a black elf gives a certain impression, of the suspension of disbelief around dragons, wizards, felbeasts, flat worlds that get curved by wrath of gods etc, does not?
    That mostly because those that get that impression forget about the context of the settings. Classic mistake.

  20. #3740
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    Did game of thrones or the new house of dragons have black people? Did people think that was "woke"? Why is one fantasy setting okay, but the other not? Aren't the two very similar in terms of magic dragons and what not? Haven't seen GoT but I know it was very popular

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