Poll: Was Hillary Right?

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yes he was a moderate answer to what a large amount of people want. Enough to take the presidency. I get the feeling that a lot of people don't really realize that. They believe that because it is harder for them to organize that they must be few in number.
    Ignoring my questions I see. Well then, you're certainly not worth having a discussion with if you're so delusional as to think Trump is moderate in anything, let alone politics.

  2. #62
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I think you have a cinematic view of what will happen. Odds are they will simply win elections. Take trump. Trump didn't lose his support base from being absurd he lost it from being seen as a moderate.

    I wanna be clear I'm not offering solutions I doubt there are any simply explaining why X and Y is happening.
    Here's a friendly tip; Nazis winning elections does not make them not-Nazis, nor does it make their views acceptable or defensible.

    Using Nazis to make the point given an example we can (hopefully) agree is malicious in its goals.

    It's you using a blatant appeal to popularity to avoid having to justify your views rhetorically. It's dishonest pablum, and thus meaningless.


  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yes he was a moderate answer to what a large amount of people want. Enough to take the presidency. I get the feeling that a lot of people don't really realize that. They believe that because it is harder for them to organize that they must be few in number.
    We believe they're few in number relative to the rest of the country and even other Republicans because we've looked at the data, while you're talking about feelings. Trump and FOX are really great at the illusion of broad support, but illusions didn't save him in 2020, either.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Here's a friendly tip; Nazis winning elections does not make them not-Nazis, nor does it make their views acceptable or defensible.

    Using Nazis to make the point given an example we can (hopefully) agree is malicious in its goals.

    It's you using a blatant appeal to popularity to avoid having to justify your views rhetorically. It's dishonest pablum, and thus meaningless.
    What are my views and where are the nazis?

    I'm explaining what is occurring I'm just a misanthrope I don't overly care either way.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yes he was a moderate answer to what a large amount of people want. Enough to take the presidency. I get the feeling that a lot of people don't really realize that. They believe that because it is harder for them to organize that they must be few in number.
    He got the same percentage of the voting population Romney did. That’s not being moderate. That’s having (R) beside your name.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    We believe they're few in number relative to the rest of the country and even other Republicans because we've looked at the data, while you're talking about feelings. Trump and FOX are really great at the illusion of broad support, but illusions didn't save him in 2020, either.
    He was extremely close to winning even with his base abandoning him as a useless moderate...

    Again you see trump as the ultimate expression of the new growing movement when at best he is a herald.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    He was extremely close to winning even with his base abandoning him as a useless moderate...
    The fantasy world you continue to apparently exist in is really weird and not remotely close to the reality all of us share.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    He was extremely close to winning even with his base abandoning him as a useless moderate...

    Again you see trump as the ultimate expression of the new growing movement when at best he is a herald.
    He lost, and his numbers are smaller now--maga Republicans are about 10-15% of the population, and in point of fact, I actually see Trump as the inevitable result of decades of race-baiting, fear-mongering, transparent lies, and dog-whistled white nationalism (you all must be so relieved and excited that you don't have to bother keeping it on the DL anymore), so your mind reading skills are bad, too. As Endus points out, even popularity doesn't justify or excuse authoritarianism.
    Last edited by Levelfive; 2022-09-04 at 08:59 PM. Reason: typo
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yes he was a moderate answer to what a large amount of people want. Enough to take the presidency. I get the feeling that a lot of people don't really realize that. They believe that because it is harder for them to organize that they must be few in number.
    No the fuck he wasn't. Literally everything he did was for the fascists of his party.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    What are my views and where are the nazis?

    I'm explaining what is occurring I'm just a misanthrope I don't overly care either way.
    The Republican party ticks every single point of the 14 points of fascism, how are they not Nazis?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yes he was a moderate answer to what a large amount of people want.
    "Trump's moderate" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Again you see trump as the ultimate expression of the new growing movement when at best he is a herald.
    I see someone stopped taking their medication. It's the only way one would think he's a "herald."

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I am simply pointing out that you can't deny a massive minority of people a seat at the table because you find them reprehensible.
    "Guys, you should give the Nazis a seat, else they'll just take a seat anyways." Well that's stupid.

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  11. #71
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean if you want to pretend they have the same options and platforms that is fine. I'm not gonna argue the color of the sky with you.
    The right is not repressed. Hateful and violent speech is. It just seems you're admitting that hate and violence is inseparable from right wing principles.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The right is not repressed. Hateful and violent speech is. It just seems you're admitting that hate and violence is inseparable from right wing principles.
    Yeah that is pretty spot on.

  13. #73
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Hillary Clinton warned us that the "basket of deplorables" were a threat to American democracy. She was simply offering a reasonable analysis based on the available evidence — and she paid an enormous political price for daring to tell that truth in public.

    Not in regards to Clinton but that stuck out to me, cos truth is exactly what the public is not given. At least not an incentive to be given or accepted.
    The polarization will be such a weight on the US and given time more than likely be its downfall in certain important aspects outside military and economic power.

    Try throwing around governing transparency, freedom of press, rule of law among others even today and its met by laughter.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Yeah that is pretty spot on.
    The "principles" shift from day to day but the sense of entitlement and jonesing to take power through violence is constant, and that's what makes your movement fascist. There's nothing new about it, btw.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  15. #75
    Titan Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Don’t drink the kool-aid
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Let's just say that your political opponents are Nazis.

    What then is the solution?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I don't really think either party overly cares about democracy.
    It's super telling that this is the response from people who are either right wing or right wing friendly.

    Like...SUPER telling.
    Forum badass alert:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    It's called resistance / rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana Violence View Post
    Also, one day the tables might turn.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Let's just say that your political opponents are Nazis.

    What then is the solution?
    A good question.

    I would say: talk to them - and find common links; and try to ensure that they aren't left behind (economically and socially).

    Calling people 'deplorables' is rarely a good strategy, regardless of the truth. Some, as Barbara Walters in her Civil War-book say that regulating social media platforms is part of the solution - but I'm doubtful as it heavily relies on the "the good guys" being in control.

  17. #77
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    A good question.

    I would say: talk to them - and find common links; and try to ensure that they aren't left behind (economically and socially).
    If we're talking on the national scale, that's the approach Neville Chamberlain pushed for with appeasement.

    Ask France how that worked out for everyone.

    Calling people 'deplorables' is rarely a good strategy, regardless of the truth.
    Why? Because the deplorables might get angry enough to get violent?

    If it's because it bothers them, their positions involve far more abusive attacks on innocents, so they can put up with being correctly and properly described until they voluntarily stop being abusive dickweeds to innocent people. You seem to be ignoring that this is all a response to pre-existing malicious conduct and abuse by these individuals. Calling them "deplorable" isn't firing the first rhetorical shot.


  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I would say: talk to them - and find common links; and try to ensure that they aren't left behind (economically and socially).
    And if you've tried this and they've dug their heels in and refused to engage in the same good faith?

    Is it alright to call a spade a spade at that point? Or should we continue to be worried that calling a spade a spade will result in the spade getting violently angry because they were called a spade?

    We didn't just start from: "Everything is normal and everyone is nice." and skip straight to, "Roughly half of Trump's supporters are a basket of deplorables.". There's a ton of things that happened between those two moments over the decades. This wasn't some sudden heel-turn by MAGA Republicans, it was a decades-long process that arguably began as early as the Nixon/Agnew days.

  19. #79
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And if you've tried this and they've dug their heels in and refused to engage in the same good faith?

    Is it alright to call a spade a spade at that point? Or should we continue to be worried that calling a spade a spade will result in the spade getting violently angry because they were called a spade?

    We didn't just start from: "Everything is normal and everyone is nice." and skip straight to, "Roughly half of Trump's supporters are a basket of deplorables.". There's a ton of things that happened between those two moments over the decades. This wasn't some sudden heel-turn by MAGA Republicans, it was a decades-long process that arguably began as early as the Nixon/Agnew days.
    Also, this isn't a case where someone's kindly Republican grandma is being labelled a "deplorable" out of nowhere.

    Gramma has been bitching about why she can't get a "nice white waiter who understands English", she's shunned and disowned her granddaughter for coming out as trans, and she's been bemoaning that there's no one in the younger generation willing to take up granddad's Klan hood like a good white patriot.

    Deplorables are earning the moniker through their actual actions. Like you said; we aren't starting from zero and the label's coming out of nowhere. It's being applied as a reaction to years, often decades of abuse and hate perpetrated by those being so labelled.

    The idea that being correctly identified as a bad person is somehow "worse" than the horrendous acts they've been committing is just fucking ridiculous.


  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If we're talking on the national scale, that's the approach Neville Chamberlain pushed for with appeasement.
    Wrong. I wasn't talking about appeasement, but about finding common ground.

    Added: and you missed the other parts. Germany paid a heavy price for WWI; changing that may have averted WWII - but it was too late when Neville Chamberlain got into power. The Marshall plan showed a better way after WWII.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    And if you've tried this and they've dug their heels in and refused to engage in the same good faith?
    You see if you have missed anything, and re-asses and try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Is it alright to call a spade a spade at that point? Or should we continue to be worried that calling a spade a spade will result in the spade getting violently angry because they were called a spade?
    You should be working towards winning, not futile symbolic victories.

    Hillary Clinton allegedly claims that using the phrase helped her lose and Trump win. Do you question her analysis?
    Last edited by Forogil; 2022-09-06 at 08:38 PM.

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