[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I dont understand.
I have no issue with her not being as volatile as Bruce, well, because shes not.
I dont think thats the crux of the conversation.
People are just losing their mind about the way the show chose to establish it; a potentially divisive messaging.

There really is no other way to establish it Jen is a every day normal woman and thus her experiences are those of other woman and her having to deal with it in the same way many other woman also do. There is no tragic back story for her to relay for why she’s has better at it then Bruce just real every day experiences.

The only other way you could really establish her being more stable then Bruce would be to attack his mental health and trauma and put him down due to them which would be way out of character.

[Jester Joe]

I mean, i do like me some drama from time to time and given that theres more drama happening around the show than in the show itself why wouldnt i?

Because the show isn't a drama, it's a comedy. It's literally in the tags on Disney+.

On top of that, engaging in drama in threads just to increase the drama has a label for that kinda action.

Im sorry, do you have a link to some consent form i should fill out first in order to properly engage in conversation with you.
Maybe you should update your banner so as to prevent further being inconvenienced by unsolicited responses.

Pretty sure it's just called common sense that if someone directs a specific question towards a specific person, that it's not intended for random people to just come in and go "NAH I FEEL THIS WAY". It's not like I was directing it towards the thread or anything, how you feel about it or what you think is irrelevant because its not what was being inquired.

You haven't even watched the show to understand the parallel issues even.

[Endus]

I have provided them, but again. Since you cannot refute them, you just claim they do not exist.

It's like the unicorn in my backyard. And me saying that if you can't show me a photo of my backyard without a unicorn in it, you can't refute that there's a unicorn in my backyard, so therefore, unicorns exist and I have one.

That's what you're trying to seriously argue, here.

How? How in the world am I stopping you from gushing over the show? Is my critique so powerful that you cannot focus on the "amazing quality" of the show? Well... thank you, I guess.

You keep making shit up that isn't even in the show so we have to waste time pointing out that you're making shit up, rather than discussing the show. This isn't complicated.

In case it is not obvious: There is an ignore function, or you can manually ignore me, if my opinion is too much too handle. It's not like this exchange will ever convince you of anything (mainly because you ignore my arguments), so it isn't like it has any worth for either of us.

I don't use the ignore function, because I'm not looking for an echo chamber. The only reason I'd use it would be temporarily, if someone was heaping abuse on me through PMs or something. I'd rather continue pointing out that your entire argument is predicated on stuff you've made up that isn't in the show. Like She-Hulk blasting Bruce away with a clap. Which didn't happen. Or the claim that the show is sexist. Which it isn't, and there's nothing you can point to which would support that.

[Demasiados]

It's not like I was directing it towards the thread

Well you werent not asking for it by putting it in the thead and not DMing directly.
Common sense would dicate you werent exactly shielding yourself.

You haven't even watched the show to understand the parallel issues even.

Sorry, i dont understand.
Define "issues parallel to the show" that can only be understood by watching the show.

[Raisei]

I form my own opinions, looking at the actual content itself and how I feel about it. I don't look for reviews by other people to inform how I feel about a property, because I'm perfectly capable of drawing that conclusion for myself without external help.

It's kind of really fucking weird that you'd go find other people to tell you what you should think about the show, dude.

Amazing you literally turned all my words around. I said that I talk to other people and watch reviews to INFORM myself, not to let them make my decisions for me. Because I am not arrogant enough to assume I have seen every angle. You apparently are. Good show.

Maybe if you would try to seek information outside of your very own head, you would realize that I am neither making the things up that I am saying, nor that I am alone in criticising it.

Edit: Also, cite reputable critics working with reputable publications, not random Youtubers pushing an agenda for the algorithm, if you want to be taken seriously. I've seen quite a few reputable critics talking on She-Hulk and none of them have agreed with your agenda nonsense.

The fact that you assume that your "reputable" critics have any less of an agenda then the ones I am talking about is laughable at best, worrying at worst. I am well aware how Youtube works, hence I expect agenda and can seperate between it and the content provided.

If you truely believe that the "reputable publications" are not changing their judgement to appeal to certain communities or to sell more issues, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[Jester Joe]

Well you werent not asking for it by putting it in the thead and not DMing directly.
Common sense would dicate you werent exactly shielding yourself.

Like I said, creating drama for drama's sake has a certain label to it. I don't think I need to spell this out, but apparently I do.

The thread is for discussing, quoting someone is for responding to what they said. And when I phrase questions with "you" while also using the quote feature, it's to indicate that the post is directed at them. Now, while it's true you can hit reply to what I said and also respond to it, that doesn't mean what you're responding with is relevant since the question again, was not aimed at you.

Sorry, i dont understand.
Define "issues parallel to the show" that can only be understood by watching the show.

No. Go watch the show yourself and find out instead of passing the time by doing whatever it is you're trying to do. I'm not going to bother continuing this because it's pretty clear there isn't earnest intentions here.

[Endus]

Amazing you literally turned all my words around. I said that I talk to other people and watch reviews to INFORM myself, not to let them make my decisions for me. Because I am not arrogant enough to assume I have seen every angle. You apparently are. Good show.

Maybe if you would try to seek information outside of your very own head, you would realize that I am neither making the things up that I am saying, nor that I am alone in criticising it.

I do look at reviews, dude. I haven't seen a single one that's agreed with your take on anything. But I don't visit hate-watch Youtube "reviewers", either.

If you truely believe that the "reputable publications" are not changing their judgement to appeal to certain communities or to sell more issues, then I have a bridge to sell you.

This is literally a conspiracy theory.

[Polyxo]

I don't think this show is really gonna take a deep, harrowing dive into a lot of emotions or the cost of being a superhero. It's just not that kind of show, and I don't think it has to be. That kind of stuff can get explored in other shows or other she-hulk involvements. Honestly, people should've realized that when the reaction to her finding out her life is forever changed is to tearfully jam a whole pancake into her mouth.

I also don't think this is going to be a meticulous legal procedural either as much as it is a breezy, fun way to explore a bunch of casual 'what if' legal questions about superheroes.

[Raisei]

You keep making shit up that isn't even in the show so we have to waste time pointing out that you're making shit up, rather than discussing the show. This isn't complicated.

Mhm. No. You don't. The only one making you do anything here is you. I will life on fine without reading you deny the obvious again and again. Don't worry.

I don't use the ignore function, because I'm not looking for an echo chamber.

You literally stated that you only ever listen to yourself when making a decision, without recognizing any external input (unless of course it agrees with what you already decided to be true), those are the parameters for an echo chamber.

On top of that, you are obviously and openly lying here.

If you weren't looking for an echo chamber then my critique would not stop you from discussing how amazing the show is. You are literally saying that because of me personally, this is not a "safe space" where you can talk about this genius show and you "have to" make sure to convince me of this before you can turn back to the shows awesomeness.
Meaning that you first need to get rid of dissenting thoughts and create an echo chamber for your opinion, only with critical voices removed can you talk freely.

Admit it or not, you want an echo chamber.

However, since I really do not see this going anywhere and talking to a wall is pointless, I will not reply to you anymore, though maybe to others. I do not want to be solely responsible for keeping you from discussing all the awesomeness in the show. So... enjoy.

[Endus]

You literally stated that you only ever listen to yourself when making a decision, without recognizing any external input (unless of course it agrees with what you already decided to be true), those are the parameters for an echo chamber.

Why can't you ever just tell the simple truth?

Here's the post you're referencing; https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53900491

The relevant bit at the top was this: "I form my own opinions, looking at the actual content itself and how I feel about it. I don't look for reviews by other people to inform how I feel about a property, because I'm perfectly capable of drawing that conclusion for myself without external help."

That's not "about any decision" or a refusal to recognize any external input, it's that I don't need an external source to tell me if I like something. I may look for reviews that also liked the thing to see if I missed something, but I'm not going to suddenly retroactively not like a thing I liked because I read a negative review.

On top of that, you are obviously and openly lying here.

If you weren't looking for an echo chamber then my critique would not stop you from discussing how amazing the show is.

This is a public thread, and you're posting with malicious intent.

You are literally saying that because of me personally, this is not a "safe space" where you can talk about this genius show and you "have to" make sure to convince me of this before you can turn back to the shows awesomeness.

I don't expect to convince you of a damned thing. I'm just making sure nobody else here takes your opinion as valid. Like I said; public thread.

Meaning that you first need to get rid of dissenting thoughts and create an echo chamber for your opinion, only with critical voices removed can you talk freely.

I have no problem with voices I disagree with on subjective matters. If someone thinks this is too silly for them, cool beans. If they can't handle the CGI flaws, shucks.

I have a problem when people push disinformation about the subject of the thread, for whatever reason. I couldn't care less if someone doesn't like the show. I care if they lie about what the show is, to try and dissuade people from watching. Which is what you're doing, here.

[Aucald]

I don't think this show is really gonna take a deep, harrowing dive into a lot of emotions or the cost of being a superhero. It's just not that kind of show, and I don't think it has to be. That kind of stuff can get explored in other shows or other she-hulk involvements. Honestly, people should've realized that when the reaction to her finding out her life is forever changed is to tearfully jam a whole pancake into her mouth.

I also don't think this is going to be a meticulous legal procedural either as much as it is a breezy, fun way to explore a bunch of casual 'what if' legal questions about superheroes.

I don't think it'll be deep or harrowing, as the show is obviously meant to convey a lot of humor replete with 4th-wall breaks a la Deadpool, but insofar as diving into the emotions and cost of being a superhero, or being viewed as a superhero in Jen's case, it's kind of already started to explore said emotions and plight. Jen has a bit of a pronounced slump when her law firm sends her packing despite doing the objectively right thing - and then she's put in the unenviable spot of playing up to her persona as She-Hulk, something she doesn't really want to do as she understandably wants to succeed as herself and not as an identity foisted onto her from outside. The show is witty and irreverent about it but still explores that nuance quite nicely. I liken it to Moon Knight in tone, which could be both serious and funny, often with wild body swerves between the two states. She-Hulk is more comedic, but still manages to touch on serious issues both topical and internal to the MCU.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Took like 25 pages for someone to actually link the scene in question and as someone who hasnt seen the show i must confess that watching that scene it does seem like shes saying that she doesnt need to be lectured about controlling ones anger due to her experience as a woman.
Honestly could be chalked up to just some writer hijacking a character and inserting their power fantasy into the show.

No, it didn't. The scene has been talked about a lot. And we don't need yet another person that hasn't even watched the show giving their hot takes on it.

Life experiences are different for everyone, except when youre part of a demographic, then is shared experience?

Jen is talking about her personal experiences. And so is Bruce. Bruce is projecting his inability to control himself as Hulk onto Jen.

Didnt watch, but how nice of Engame to suggest Falcon needed to be elevated above and erased in the process.

There was no suggestion that Falcon needed to be erased. Steve chose Sam to be his replacement... the only person that doubted Sam's qualifications was Sam. Even Bucky, who, at the start of the series, views Sam as more of a rival than a friend... thinks that Sam should have kept the Shield.

[Demasiados]

another person that hasn't even watched the show

I prefer binging but gonna check out the first ep just for you.

Jen is talking about her personal experiences.

"Fear and anger are, like, the baseline of any woman existing."
Sounds kinda personal and not like some very deliberate piece writing. /s
The meditation spiel was not an isolated incident after all.

Well, lets just take it as if it were one of her witty 4th wall breaks.
Gonna leave it at that as i myself would have been exhausted talking about it through the second week.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I prefer binging but gonna check out the first ep just for you.

Well, in general, it's better to form your opinion of a show after you've watched it... you kind of did it in the reverse order.

Also, for future reference, if you want to wait until a show is complete to binge it...which is a fine practice... you may want to avoid threads discussing that show...because, unless specifically indicated as such, threads in this sub-forum are not spoiler-free discussions. You are free to ignore this bit of unsolicited advice... but don't be upset if in She-Hulk, or any other show you plan to binge-watch later, certain things are ruined for you.

"Fear and anger are, like, the baseline of any woman existing."
Sounds kinda personal and not like some very deliberate piece writing. /s
The meditation spiel was not an isolated incident after all.

Sure, she does say that...but you'll note those are just the general emotions...not specific examples.

Later, she also specifically lists things that apply to her when it comes to controlling her anger. The entire time she is saying "I" (refering to herself) and no "we" (refering to all women)

She's also been misquoted a lot by people saying she said she is "infinitely better" at controlling her anger. The quote is "infinitely more"

[Jester Joe]

I prefer binging but gonna check out the first ep just for you.

"Fear and anger are, like, the baseline of any woman existing."
Sounds kinda personal and not like some very deliberate piece writing. /s

When you kinda ignore literally all the reasons she lists after (catcalling, being talked down to, etc), sure.

I don't know how many women you talk to honestly, but these are extremely common situations she lists off. This sounds more like again, people not understanding because they're not subjected to it.

[Endus]

She's also been misquoted a lot by people saying she said she is "infinitely better" at controlling her anger. The quote is "infinitely more"

And to place that in proper context, the only reasonable parsing of what she's saying is "infinitely more often", not "infinitely more better", which if you write it out like that just looks silly as hell, which is how you can be sure she wasn't saying that.

We shouldn't have to add that extra word to make it excruciatingly clear, since it's the only way that line makes sense, but here we are.

It's a statement about all the tiny little aggravations women face and how societally, there is far less tolerance for women displaying anger, compared to men. Hell, look at this thread, at the very people complaining about how "out of control" she was when wrestling with Bruce, who's just as much involved in the wrestling and they're holding up as a paragon of control.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

And to place that in proper context, the only reasonable parsing of what she's saying is "infinitely more often", not "infinitely more better", which if you write it out like that just looks silly as hell, which is how you can be sure she wasn't saying that.

We shouldn't have to add that extra word to make it excruciatingly clear, since it's the only way that line makes sense, but here we are.

It's a statement about all the tiny little aggravations women face and how societally, there is far less tolerance for women displaying anger, compared to men. Hell, look at this thread, at the very people complaining about how "out of control" she was when wrestling with Bruce, who's just as much involved in the wrestling and they're holding up as a paragon of control.

And with someone like Bruce specifically, we're talking about a man that NEVER learned to control his anger until after he started turning into an actual giant rage monster. So, yeah, prettty much any person in the MCU has had to control their anger "infinitely more" than Bruce Banner.

[Darththeo]

And with someone like Bruce specifically, we're talking about a man that NEVER learned to control his anger until after he started turning into an actual giant rage monster. So, yeah, prettty much any person in the MCU has had to control their anger "infinitely more" than Bruce Banner.

And when he did learn to control his anger ... it took him 31 days from when he considered it and when he learned to do it.

And he learned it on his own without anyone explaining how it works to him or assisting him.

The idea that Jen could not already have a level control on her anger is laughable. Oh yeah, Bruce totally learned to control his transformation in a month, but Jen haven't experience prior to turning is impossible to imagine.

[Gumble]

The irony that you have a group of people arguing the best possible explanation of a few lines of dialogue to counter people taking the worst possible explanation.

It is entirely possible that Jen (and really more so the writers) are insufferable whiners without it being an attack on all men everywhere.

The show isn't a massive frontal attack on men everywhere. Its just a whiney self-insert show for the writers to bitch about their own lives and play pretend with a power fantasy. Is it sad that they used She Hulk as a vehicle for that? Sure, but that seems to be the going process recently.

It is neither worth the time to hate or support. If you don't like it, move on, not that many people are watching it and it will disappear on its own.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

And when he did learn to control his anger ... it took him 31 days from when he considered it and when he learned to do it.

And he learned it on his own without anyone explaining how it works to him or assisting him.

The idea that Jen could not already have a level control on her anger is laughable. Oh yeah, Bruce totally learned to control his transformation in a month, but Jen haven't experience prior to turning is impossible to imagine.

Especially when it's already been established that Emil Blonsky also doesn't have the same control issues Bruce had. I mean, you can see the detioration of Blonski's mental health throughout the course of The Incredible Hulk (primarily driven by the version of the Super Soldier Serum that Ross gives him) ...but he's still the one driving when he turns into the Abomination. And that's the real root of Bruce's problem...it's not just that he can't control his anger...it's that, when he Hulks out, he literally becomes a different person. Even when he started learning how to kind of "point" the Hulk at enemies...he still can't control Hulk and he still worries about the damage Hulk could do. Right up until Endgame...he still thought of Hulk as a monster.

- - - Updated - - -

The irony that you have a group of people arguing the best possible explanation of a few lines of dialogue to counter people taking the worst possible explanation.

The difference is that the "best possible explanation" is supported by actual evidence.

The "worst possible explanation" is not supported by any actual evidence... just distortions, misinterpretations, and outright lies.