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[Biomega]

And like I said, the irrevocable result is it also establishes that her troops are so worthless that one could question why she needs them in the first place.

If your argument is that anyone who isn't on the level of the hero is worthless, then heroic stories will always disappoint you.

If Arya Stark can just swoop in and murder the Night King, why did we need all the other troops? They're all worthless, right.

If Legolas can just jump on an olifant and snipe it down, what's the point of the entire army doing shit? WORTHLESS.

And so on.

That's not how it works. We don't even know how good those elven troops actually are. We know that getting ambushed by a snow troll after being half dead from exhaustion and exposure did not lend itself to them displaying overwhelming force. The hero who has been shown even before this to ignore all those things and march on driven by single-minded determination does display such force. And, mind you, does so in a way that IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT PRIOR COORDINATION makes use of her troops in support (though in a very goofy way), which suggests that they ARE skilled and ARE accustomed to fighting, they're just running on fumes here and can't do much more than lend a hand.

This shows nothing of how good the troops really are, because we have no basis for comparison. All we have is them vs. Galadriel, where she clearly comes out on top. As you would expect a hero to do, and as heroes are consistently treated in heroic narratives where they are stronger and more skilled than random soldiers, less affected by adverse conditions, and more determined and driven. All of which is demonstrated here in exactly that very standard, very tropey way.

And by the end of the episode, she literally abandons them to go off on her own anyways, vindicating the idea that she should have just dumped the dead weight and continued doing her thing since she was gonna do that anyways.

But that's development. You see how it was before - then you see how it is now. Showing her abandoning her support (or being abandoned by it, however you want to frame it) is very different from showing her not having any in the first place. Those are not the same thing, narratively, just because they look the same at the end. That's like saying why did you show a character getting divorced and then moving into a motel, could you not just have shown them living in a motel right away - them losing something they had MATTERS.

[jackofwind]

Watch the first 20 minutes again and just take note of her actual leadership abilities. You'll find that most of her motivations are quite irrational and indifferent to the wellbeing of her troops.

As if that's somehow surprising for an elven leader?

[Triceron]

Have you never played an RPG where you can focus power into one characters and use the other party members to support them? Even if one member is a more competent fighter there is almost always things other party members can do that are needed and without them the Best fighter has a much harder or impossible time.

Yeah and usually in those RPGs, this is shown by giving the support characters some time to shine and actually, you know, support the Carry.

Can you point me out where this actually happened in the show? Springboard dude is literally the only thing notable, and I hardly even consider that support considering Galadriel could have taken the thing down even without the help.

There's no reason to assume the idea that the fight would have been harder without their assistance, because they never establish this in the narrative. You're comparing this to an RPG which has moments that let you experiment with the game and find out how important (or not important) the supporting characters would be. Here, we're literally given a short version that cuts out all their support, and merely shows them all when being attacked, and constantly urging the leader to return home.

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As if that's somehow surprising for an elven leader?

Doesn't matter if you consider it surprising or not.

If you're making a point that the show already established her as a leader, then my point is that the first 20 minutes undermines her leadership capabilities and shows how terrible of a leader she ended up being in reality.

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If your argument is that anyone who isn't on the level of the hero is worthless, then heroic stories will always disappoint you.

I'm not talking about 'heroic stories', I'm talking about this show.

Is there any point you can make that actually relates to what I'm actually talking about?

Showing her abandoning her support (or being abandoned by it, however you want to frame it) is very different from showing her not having any in the first place.

I'm literally making the point that after the troll fight, there is no narrative reason for her to go back with her troops. That fight literally cements the idea that she doesn't need them at all. And the end of the show literally shows that she would freely abandon them anyways. With the way the first 20 minutes is written, her being back in the Elf city and taking the boat to Valinor is nothing but fluff. She could have chosen to leave her troops right after the Troll fight, and the story would be exactly the same - with her wandering Middle Earth to find Sauron.

Right now, the whole swimming and travelling back to the shore is just a prelude to her hunt for Sauron.

[Kumorii]

Right now, the whole swimming and travelling back to the shore is just a prelude to her hunt for Sauron.

Entire point of the boat scene was to make the first opening statement about stones looking downward to "make sense".

[bledgor]

...

I mean of course she needs the troops, the Galadriel in the show is a complete moron. Who else but a moron would wait till they are SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES FROM LAND to jump off a ship at the gates of paradise to then try and SWIM SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES back to land with no plan. Like if they had her jump off the ship a few miles out into the journey I could have understood, but not at the literal end of the journey.

So anyways she needs troops to tell her basic things apparently, like when someone is collapsed its time to take a break, or the guy that offered her his sword that instead of standing there for the 10-15 seconds watching her troops get blasted she should move in to kill it, and apparently you don't jump off a boat with no plans/help SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES FROM LAND.

Entire point of the boat scene was to make the first opening statement about stones looking downward to "make sense".

Ugh it hurts more every time I think about it, just because you CAN make a metaphor doesn't mean you should.

[jackofwind]

Yeah and usually in those RPGs, this is shown by giving the support characters some time to shine and actually, you know, support the Carry.

Can you point me out where this actually happened in the show? Springboard dude is literally the only thing notable, and I hardly even consider that support considering Galadriel could have taken the thing down even without the help.

There's no reason to assume the idea that the fight would have been harder without their assistance, because they never establish this in the narrative. You're comparing this to an RPG which has moments that let you experiment with the game and find out how important (or not important) the supporting characters would be. Here, we're literally given a short version that cuts out all their support, and merely shows them all when being attacked, and constantly urging the leader to return home.

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Doesn't matter if you consider it surprising or not.

If you're making a point that the show already established her as a leader, then my point is that the first 20 minutes undermines her leadership capabilities and shows how terrible of a leader she ended up being in reality.

You're confusing her being established as a leader with her being established as a "good" leader.

You know, because she might have a character arc where she becomes a better leader as the show goes on.

This isn't rocket appliances dude.

[bledgor]

You're confusing her being established as a leader with her being established as a "good" leader.

You know, because she might have an arc where she becomes a better fucking leader.

This isn't rocket appliances dude.

You know what Tolkien text has her being in it? A good leader. You know what it lacks? Her being a master warrior. You want an arc where a not good leader becomes a good leader, do it to Elrond, he is young enough and has an easy/good motivation for growth (proving himself to Galadriel/courting Celebrian).

A better Galadriel arc is taking her from being passive/watching as evil rises to being active in stopping it, and you can even give her the legitimate excuse of wanting to birth/raise her child as why she has taken a step back. Arc of reluctant hero forced into action, oldie but it still works.

[Kumorii]

Ugh it hurts more every time I think about it, just because you CAN make a metaphor doesn't mean you should.

Tell me about it. Even worse when you take a poorly made metaphor and then play it out almost literally, word for word...
Even good metaphors should rarely be played out exactly like the metaphor.

[Triceron]

You're confusing her being established as a leader with her being established as a "good" leader.

You know, because she might have a character arc where she becomes a better leader as the show goes on.

This isn't rocket appliances dude.

It isn't rocket appliances, it's straight up trash.

You want to tell a story of someone rising up to be a good leader? Have them start off as being a hot-headed lone wolf, make mistakes that has them respect the value of leadership, have them follow under other strong leaders, and build up to becoming one themselves. John Snow style. It'd make way more sense than establishing her as a 'leader', showing her as a 'bad leader', then showing her lone-wolf it. It's counter-intuitive to establish her as a leader if we're on the journey to see her transition from hot-headed lone wolf to good leader.

If they want to establish her as a highly skilled fighter, then so be it. If they want to push the revenge angle and hunt for Sauron, then by all means go for it. I don't see how establishing her as a leader of a company of Elves has any meaning to the first 20 minutes when the whole story would have worked just as fine if she were an exceptionally skilled fighter who was under the command of someone else, or literally lone-wolfing it with maybe one or two close allies.

[jackofwind]

You know what Tolkien text has her being in it? A good leader. You know what it lacks? Her being a master warrior. You want an arc where a not good leader becomes a good leader, do it to Elrond, he is young enough and has an easy/good motivation for growth (proving himself to Galadriel/courting Celebrian).

Shockingly, she's younger here than when she was a good leader as per Tolkien's texts. She didn't become a good leader out of the womb, she had to get there.

Re: her being a warrior, she was a leader during the rebellion of the Noldor. Tolkien sets her apart from other female elves by saying she alone stood tall in the days of rebellion and the flight from Valinor. She probably fought. She was probably more than just a speechmaker. It's not far-fetched.

[bledgor]

Shockingly, she's younger here than when she was a good leader as per Tolkien's texts. She didn't become a good leader out of the womb, she had to get there.

Re: her being a warrior, she was a leader during the rebellion of the Noldor. Tolkien sets her apart from other female elves by saying she alone stood tall in the days of rebellion and the flight from Valinor. She probably fought. She was probably more than just a speechmaker. It's not far-fetched.

Shockingly she is still a good leader and several thousands years old so yes younger, but by not fucking means young in the 2nd age. She didn't start that way out of the womb, but she is still ONE OF THE OLDEST ELVES/BEINGS ALIVE AT THIS POINT. She acts more like a petulant child than just about anyone else.

Cool not all leaders are 1. Good Warriors 2. Good generals/leaders in war. She was never stated directly participating in any fights/wars. SHE MIGHT HAVE fought, but there is no facts that she did.

I would be completely fine with her being a mentor/council for the leaders, she has always been known as being one of the wisest/most knowledgeable beings including Maiar. IF YOU HAVE to force into fights, make it happen rarely (like 1-2 times) and make it more a metaphysical/semi-magical fight with Sauron, that would be appropriate and still show case her power.

It makes it unbelievable when you have a being recognized for her wisdom/knowledge acting like a complete moron throughout the first two episodes.

[Biomega]

I'm not talking about 'heroic stories', I'm talking about this show.

Is there any point you can make that actually relates to what I'm actually talking about?

Oh fuck off with your "not what I'm talking about" routine, this show IS a heroic narrative, whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm literally making the point that after the troll fight, there is no narrative reason for her to go back with her troops. That fight literally cements the idea that she doesn't need them at all.

What, because in ONE fight she showed that she's more determined than her troops and won't let hunger or cold slow her down, that means she can take on EVERYTHING alone?

That makes zero sense on its own, let alone with the fact that she goes back with her troops BECAUSE SHE ADMITS THEY HAVE A POINT, just like she accepts Gil-galad's reward BECAUSE SHE ADMITS HE HAS A POINT.

That's narratively important because it tells us, the viewer, that she's NOT just the misunderstood hero who has it right when the entire world has it wrong, but that she KNOWS that what she's doing is NOT how she should behave regardless of whether or not she's right about Sauron.

And the end of the show literally shows that she would freely abandon them anyways.

Not just "freely abandon", but waver to the point of GIVING IN to her desire for vengeance. She's at the cusp of finally letting go, but ultimately she can't. That is Galadriel's entire character arc in the original material: she falls prey to the same arrogance of the Noldor that took Fëanor and others of her kin, and it takes her thousands of years, all the way until her encounter with the One Ring in Lothlórien, until she can bring herself to finally say no to power for good.

This is why she DOESN'T let go. We need to know she SHOULD, hence the previous stuff, but she doesn't.

She could have chosen to leave her troops right after the Troll fight, and the story would be exactly the same - with her wandering Middle Earth to find Sauron.

This - again - is the same problem I mentioned earlier: you can't just show the same end result and pretend that the process of getting to that result didn't matter to the narrative. IT DID. It shows the viewers that she knows she's in the wrong, and that her being right about Sauron's threat is not what it's about. It's about her being unable to say no to her own impulses, something that destroyed so many of her people, and something that she herself will struggle with for millennia to come. It's why she's not worthy of returning to Valinor and SHE KNOWS IT.

Stop looking at narratives simplistically in terms of results, that's juvenile and reductive.

[Syegfryed]

Bad writing aside;
Not all elves are all powerful. This is a bit of an LotR issue (books and movies) because the main Elf we are exposed to is Legolas and he is exceptional.
In Tolkien lore, Galadriel is many levels above Legolas, but it doesn't mean the elves she is with would be as well. They gave no indication that the troop she was with were anything more than just regular elves.
As you said though its more of a writing issue, it's fair that Galadriel could solo a troll, it took most of the fellowship to down their troll, but these elves aren't at the same ability level as Legolas, Gimli, Aragon, and Boromir. It's more a problem of portraying Galadriel better vs just making everyone else look stupid. At least they survived getting absolutely pummeled.

I know not elves are not the same, but see, those elves are from the second age, and presumably, they are an elite group to fucking find Sauron, a maiar, i expect then to be Legolas level, and one troll alone clean the flor with not three or four, but seven.

While in the fellowship you only rly have 2 men, a dwarf, an elf and Gandalf versus not just a troll but a small army of orcs as well, it's not even comparable.

So maybe her troops are shitty. Maybe she doesn't need them. Maybe it's you who is silly for thinking they're anything more than a band of -normal- elves.

So, the elite group to find Sauron and escort Galadriel are just a bunch of fucking weakling dumbasess, and this makes sense how?

[Triceron]

That makes zero sense on its own, let alone with the fact that she goes back with her troops BECAUSE SHE ADMITS THEY HAVE A POINT, just like she accepts Gil-galad's reward BECAUSE SHE ADMITS HE HAS A POINT.

That's narratively important because it tells us, the viewer, that she's NOT just the misunderstood hero who has it right when the entire world has it wrong, but that she KNOWS that what she's doing is NOT how she should behave regardless of whether or not she's right about Sauron.

Which is all COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE END.

Like I said, the moment she abandons her troops is the moment she abandons her troops. The entire travel back to the Elf village to show her acknowledging her doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that by the end... she does the exact same thing that she started with. What you may be implying as character development is actually character reversion, because by the end she does leave the boat, defies the orders of Gil-Galad, and still believes she is right about Sauron.

This makes her entire arc in this episode purely fluff. Her journey could start exactly after the 20-minute mark abandoning her troops, and we'd be exactly in the same spot where she is right now. Cuz you know what? By the end of the first episode, they end up establishing her as a misunderstood hero anyways. There has been zero nuance to her character before and after she leaves the Elf lands. All that's shown is she begrudgingly accepts her fate to go back to Valinor until she can't bottle her natural impulses any longer. That isn't character development.

This - again - is the same problem I mentioned earlier: you can't just show the same end result and pretend that the process of getting to that result didn't matter to the narrative. IT DID. It shows the viewers that she knows she's in the wrong, and that her being right about Sauron's threat is not what it's about. It's about her being unable to say no to her own impulses, something that destroyed so many of her people, and something that she herself will struggle with for millennia to come. It's why she's not worthy of returning to Valinor and SHE KNOWS IT.

Stop looking at narratives simplistically in terms of results, that's juvenile and reductive.

What the show establishes is counter-intuitive and a monumental waste of time, because she doesn't actually internalize ANY of what you said. It didn't show the viewers that she knows she's in the wrong, because she ISN'T in the wrong and proves it by doubling down on her instincts and jumping off the boat. It doesn't show her that being right about Sauron's thread is not what it's about - it IS EXACTLY what it's all about because again, she jumps off the boat! Everything that involved her admitting her faults is literally shown as her biting her tongue and bottling her instincts and trying to be a 'good little Elf' that Elrond expects her to be. I don't know how you interpret that as her reconsidering her actions, because she doesn't really do that at all. She is only really convinced to go at all because of Elrond.

Look at her talks with Elrond. She never admits that what she's doing is actually wrong, she ends up doubling down on her instincts. He asks 'if you are wrong' and she immediately snaps back with 'I'm not wrong'. She is the same character as what she started as. There is zero character development throughout the entire process. Yes, she admits some failings - adding more Elf carvings to the forest, or not heeding the call to Valinor - but the story doesn't need to be completely circular and have her on the boats to Valinor to accomplish this. She could literally be wandering Middle Earth and facing some obstacle on her own, without her troops or without the aid of her people, and still reflect on her faults and failings while still redoubling her need to push on and find Sauron.

As for being unworthy of Valinor, I'd say that's a really interesting interpretation, but definitely one I don't think the show illustrated properly if intentional. I don't think her motivations to return to Middle Earth are motivated by being unworthy at all, and while that's a really interesting proposition that I hadn't considered, I don't fully agree that her character was motivated by these reasons. The whole stones and touching darkness thing seemed like she's more motivated to get to the root of the problem and, it makes more sense to imply that she's a slave to her impulses and the need for revenge/justice more than her feeling unworthy to return to her lands. At most, she says she won't be at peace, not that she doesn't deserve to go back.

[Syegfryed]

As for being unworthy of Valinor, I'd say that's a really interesting interpretation, but definitely one I don't think the show illustrated properly if intentional. I don't think her motivations to return to Middle Earth are motivated by being unworthy at all, and while that's a really interesting proposition that I hadn't considered, I don't fully agree that her character was motivated by these reasons. The whole stones and touching darkness thing seemed like she's more motivated to get to the root of the problem and, it makes more sense to imply that she's a slave to her impulses and the need for revenge/justice more than her feeling unworthy to return to her lands. At most, she says she won't be at peace, not that she doesn't deserve to go back.

Her being unworthy might be related to the doom of noldor, where the noldor killed the telari to get their ships, that leads to a lot of shenanigans with i think Feanor as well

But they completely erase this moment, so, can't use that with mind.

[jackofwind]

Cool not all leaders are 1. Good Warriors 2. Good generals/leaders in war. She was never stated directly participating in any fights/wars. SHE MIGHT HAVE fought, but there is no facts that she did.

There's really no facts that she did anything pre-LotR except walk around a bunch and cry about the ocean. It would be silly to assume that she only did those things.

[Biomega]

Which is all COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE END.

Like I said, the moment she abandons her troops is the moment she abandons her troops. The entire travel back to the Elf village to show her acknowledging her doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that by the end... she does the exact same thing that she started with.

And as I've explained, the point isn't to change the outcome, it's to show viewers that she KNOWS she's wrong in what she's doing, but DOES IT ANYWAY because she can't let go.

That's important to know, because that's Galadriel's whole thing in the original. She lives in exile for thousands of years because she can't let go. It's her main personality flaw, it's defining for the entire character and, by extension, the conclusion of one of the central storylines in the entire mythology. She is a vicarious stand-in for the faults of the Noldor, and for their eventual redemption.

What you may be implying as character development is actually character reversion, because by the end she does leave the boat, defies the orders of Gil-Galad, and still believes she is right about Sauron.

And she's still wrong.

The point is that she doesn't have it in her (yet) to overcome her dark impulses. Something that she won't be able to do for thousands more years, and something that her entire people have been suffering from for thousands of years already.

This isn't just a storyline of "see I told you Sauron was a problem and noneya'll believed me!". That's not the point. At all.

Look at her talks with Elrond. Even if she admits that what she's doing is actually wrong, she ends up doubling down on her instincts.

Yes. And that's the point. As I explained. Not showing that would take away from the narrative.

She is the same character as what she started as. There is zero character development throughout the entire process.

Putting aside the fact that this show is two episodes in and asking for "character development" two episodes into a multi-season epic is a bit ridiculous (especially since most of it basically was just Ep1), we see important aspects of her character precisely BECAUSE she doesn't just do what she ends up doing right away.

I don't think her motivations to return to Middle Earth are motivated by being unworthy at all

Neither do I. It's motivated by her desire to seek vengeance. It's her realization that she can't overcome that desire that makes her realize she's not worthy of Valinor, but that's not why she turns away. That's just a corollary.

[Triceron]

Her being unworthy might be related to the doom of noldor, where the noldor killed the telari to get their ships, that leads to a lot of shenanigans with i think Feanor as well

But they completely erase this moment, so, can't use that with mind.

Yeah if it's not in the show, I'm not considering at all. There's no reason to imply any external material from the books to fill in the blanks.

Since this is an adaptation, it needs to stand on its own as a self-contained story. I wouldn't bring any of the book material into any of my criticisms of the show and the narrative it presents.

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And as I've explained, the point isn't to change the outcome, it's to show viewers that she KNOWS she's wrong in what she's doing, but DOES IT ANYWAY because she can't let go.
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Putting aside the fact that this show is two episodes in and asking for "character development" two episodes into a multi-season epic is a bit ridiculous (especially since most of it basically was just Ep1), we see important aspects of her character precisely BECAUSE she doesn't just do what she ends up doing right away.

My point is that she could internalize what she is doing is wrong in any number of ways that doesn't involve her going back to the Elf cities and taking the boat to Valinor and jumping ship the last moment. By all means, the first 20 minutes already establishes that what she's doing is wrong, since it is the root of her being a terrible leader who holds vengeance and justice over the wellbeing of her own people. What Elrond says is literally just repeating what we already saw in the first 20 minutes of the show. And she doesn't even internalize it as her being wrong. Again, not once in the conversation does she admit to any fault. I'm not sure where you're finding this, unless you're telling me her choice to return to Middle Earth is 'wrong to the viewers'. Because narratively, it isn't wrong at all.

If she was wrong, then the scene where Gil Galad talks about the evil returning with Elrond would be counter-intuitive. 'It is hard to see what is right' encapsulates Elrond questioning his own actions that urged Galadriel onto the boats. He's posing the question directly to the audience - "Was this the right decision?"

This isn't just a storyline of "see I told you Sauron was a problem and noneya'll believed me!". That's not the point. At all.

Yet that is the crux of why she was on the boats. Her only reason being on there is because her trusted friend Elrond convinced her that there was no more evil, and she could be at peace. And that was all said in ignorance as Elrond was unaware that the evil was actually still around.

Galadriel literally pinpoints the entire theme of this series with the 'Evil does not sleep, it waits' speech. And that's exactly what she's acting upon by the end of the first episode. The look at the dagger that makes her jump ship... that's what this is all about. Her internal duty to rid the evil that lingers in the world. To hunt down Sauron.

It's not about convincing anyone else about Sauron being alive. It's about her acting on a truth that no one else seemingly believes. It's all encapsulated with her declaration that 'I go to seek the enemy that escaped us in the north. Alone, if I must.' That is the underlying theme of her arc.

[InfiniteCharger]

The bit where you characterise it as "exile." If someone is released from incarceration you don't describe it as being exiled from the prison-yard unless you're desperately trying to make a point.

Well Galadriel doesn't see it as prison. Middle Earth is where she believes Sauron is at and as long as he is there he is a threat to even Valinor. So her mission is to defeat Sauron recalling what happened to her brother. So being sent back to Valinor would go against her desires.

Being right about Sauron isn't a flaw. Being unable to engage with the other Elves so they support her cause instead of worrying she is being driven purely by grief for her brother is. If Galadriel didn't have flaws then Gil-galad would 100% be supporting her intuition about Sauron.



Please make up your mind, do you consider Galadriel to be flawless or unable to communicate her issues without being considered a pest? That isn't exactly how I'd characterise it anyway, certainly for Gil-galad having Galadriel speaking against him is inconvenient (especially given her status and rebellious nature in the past) but there is also great concern for her welfare which living among the Valar should help as well as respect and a sense that she deserves the reward.

It is firmly established that returning to Aman is the greatest reward an Elf could hope for. Galadriel explains her feelings very clearly to Elrond while he is gushing about the marvellous stories he has heard. Galadriel very much wanted to return to the Undying Lands and ultimately her turning away is what Tolkien would consider a clear moral choice to stand against evil instead of acting in her own interest, echoing both her refusal of the Valar's pardon in the Silmarillion and refusing the One Ring in LotR.

All of this just boils down to writing. If they just spent the first episode on that one story line and fleshed it out, then it may make sense. But I literally believe that their goal was to get her on that raft and this is was the only way that they could accomplish it. And all of those other things are just written that way to make it happen and accomplish the plot points they wanted to accomplish. Numenor is an island away from Middle Earth. We don't know what kind of relationship the Elves have with them at this point in time in this series. So they had to figure some way to get her there outside 'official' channels. To me it is just obviously bad writing, especially since all of these things so egregiously contradict the lore of the 2nd age.

[Triceron]

All of this just boils down to writing. If they just spent the first episode on that one story line and fleshed it out, then it may make sense. But I literally believe that their goal was to get her on that raft and this is was the only way that they could accomplish it. And all of those other things are just written that way to make it happen and accomplish the plot points they wanted to accomplish. Numenor is an island away from Middle Earth. We don't know what kind of relationship the Elves have with them at this point in time in this series. So they had to figure some way to get her there outside 'official' channels. To me it is just obviously bad writing, especially since all of these things so egregiously contradict the lore of the 2nd age.

Man, I didn't even see where they were going with her arc, but explaining it that way makes total sense.

And yeah, I do think it was a shoddy way to do it, but they don't have many options Galadriel going to Numenor is the goal here.