Should raiding be easier across all difficulties?

[M1r4g3]

I always enjoyed playing at the higher levels of wow though I noticed a lot of bosses are being released in arguably broken states then nerfed into being reasonably completable.

I am not talking a massive tuning down across the board but something more like mop level difficulty. Rather then slowly nerfing down encounters.

This is actually something that would the game more fun in general for almost everyone raiding, decreasing the amount of mechanics bosses have but increasing the skill required to play your class at a high level/more utility to compensate for the mechanic nerf, it would allow larger skill gaps between people in the same raid team. The overall difficulty didnt change much(since cata probably) it just shifted a bit more towards mechanics and less on rotations.

[Relapses]

How would you even do that? Like set bonuses for raids that get better when there's more people and dungeon sets that reduce detection radius?

There's a lot of ways they could do it. But I think the easiest way to handle it is the way they've handled it in PvP in the past. Just add a set bonus that says "in raid combat" or "in dungeon combat."

[varren]

Normal needs to be far easier. It's practically a useless raid type in it's current state.

[Luck4]

Ion mentioned it in the recent interview with Max... they're likely going to make gear from each respective form of content more powerful specifically for that type of content.

This is going to backfire so hard that after Dragonflight they'll all be talking about how that decision was bad for the game and the next expansion will not have that.

The raiding scene keeps shrinking, and if people doing M+ will need to farm a whole new set of gear just to enter a raid, that's only going to make matters worse. Ion keeps fixing what doesn't need to be fixed, and that's why every recent expansion is so bad.

I knew was only a matter of time until this expansion would show the bad stuff.

[Chilela]

Normal needs to be far easier. It's practically a useless raid type in it's current state.

Can't say I wholly agree with this notion. It still has a function as a decent difficulty for alt nights for Heroic guilds, as well as being worth running for at least a good few weeks or so for said guilds.

Overall, I generally think if Blizzard's gonna run the 4-difficulty raid format, the current difficulty curve is mostly fine, though it's worth disclosing that I never touched Sanctum, which was largely viewed as overtuned. There's always anomalous encounters that can be nerfed to smooth out the difficulty (See also: Painsmith), but all in all, they've been mostly reasonable overall.

[Raeph]

When I think of raid difficulty I think of three different things: player efficiency (how well you respond to the boss fights, ie interrupts and mechanics), dps target (how much damage you need to do the boss to beat enrage or player fatigue which I put at 7-8 minutes) and mechanical forgiveness (if an interrupt is missed does it wipe the raid).

Using that I think that LFR is just right to most likely too easy. I've been in LFRs where 2/3s of the raid dies and the boss still falls over.

LFR should be 60% mechanics, dps target that hits 60% percentile of the gear item level dropped on the first boss and missed mechanics should be capped at 40% of the HP of a dps in gear dropped by the first boss. Meaning you have to complete over half of the "fight", the raid as a whole has to do enough damage to be at least greater than half competent at their classes and that missed mechanics are punishing but not lethal unless the raids efficiency is too low.

Normal should be 70% of the mechanics, a dps target that hits 70th percentile of gear dropped on the first boss and missed mechanics capped at 70% of hp.
Heroic should be 85%, 85th percentile and 85% of hp.
Mythic should be 95%, 90th percentile and 115% of hp.

This would mean that LFR would still be easy mode but you had to at least play your class rather than afk through the fight. Normal is a step up and performing the mechanics makes the fight noticeably easier but a missed interrupt doesn't gib a critical player unless there are a large number of gameplay missteps. Heroic is a step up from there, is forgiving of the occasional hiccup but you want to be at the top of your game. Mythic requires everyone bringing their best to the fight and if you screw up then someone dies without the use of a CD.

[Relapses]

This is going to backfire so hard that after Dragonflight they'll all be talking about how that decision was bad for the game and the next expansion will not have that.

The raiding scene keeps shrinking, and if people doing M+ will need to farm a whole new set of gear just to enter a raid, that's only going to make matters worse. Ion keeps fixing what doesn't need to be fixed, and that's why every recent expansion is so bad.

I knew was only a matter of time until this expansion would show the bad stuff.

Wha...? I think you misunderstand. I didn't mean to imply you'd need to farm M+ to raid. I meant that each form of content would have its own gear. I can't say with any certainty because I'm obviously just reading into what was implied in an interview but I will say that the current paradigm does have some issues which warrant addressing. The main concern is that Heroic-level guilds often have two types of raiders: Those who M+ and those who don't. And currently since M+ offers gear that is as-good-or-better than Heroic, it unevenly distributes the raiders between haves and have-nots. Delineating gear between M+ and raiding -- while adding to gear bloat -- would at the very least help prevent these fringe situations from occurring. I think it would further alleviate the concerns from players who prefer M+ to raiding from feeling like they're compelled to raid in order to be competitive at the highest levels. Each form of content would be able to exist in their own spaces.

[Bakis]

If to dream a bit a slider that can be set by raid leader upon start would be sweet.
A bit like incrementing M+ keys behave, move the slider up a bit if HC is done to the point its a bit boring but Mythic is not yet within your reach.
Bumps up the damage/health of mobs & bosses while keeping abilities and ilvl drop the same. Think keeping ilvl would be best in order to avoid the feeling of increasing the +X is a must or chore.

Could offer a steady challenge and epeen bragging rights. -"We did HC +2!" and some challenge where there at the moment are none.

[Utrrabbit]

Yes, it should be way more easy. As easy as in vanilla classic. Nowadays raid bosses are nuclear physics.

The raids for normal and heroic are already to easy. They are a yawnfest of ease. Heroic and normal need to be harder.

[Gorsameth]

The raids for normal and heroic are already to easy. They are a yawnfest of ease. Heroic and normal need to be harder.

Either you need to stop pussyfooting around and start doing Mythic, or if you already are then you need to realise that Normal and Heroic are not aimed at you.

[jeezusisacasual]

This is going to backfire so hard that after Dragonflight they'll all be talking about how that decision was bad for the game and the next expansion will not have that.

The raiding scene keeps shrinking, and if people doing M+ will need to farm a whole new set of gear just to enter a raid, that's only going to make matters worse. Ion keeps fixing what doesn't need to be fixed, and that's why every recent expansion is so bad.

I knew was only a matter of time until this expansion would show the bad stuff.

That will never happen since it it will fragment more players and since Raiding itself is struggling to find enough members ( due to an archaic design mostly ) they would further alienate them. The way that is stated it reminds me of specific separate but equal mindset that happened in the US. There are easier ways to fix raiding that would boost its popularity ( Outside of the first patch mind you, most people come back for that patch and give the raid a go but speaking more about after that initial blip ).

Make consumables last their full duration regardless if you died. The amount of setup time between attempts is annoyingly long and punishes the player for what exactly?
Smooth the difficulty curve by resetting the expansions difficulty every time. Stop assuming people have played for 18 years and have time to research raiding like a term paper. The first raid is always easier then the 2nd or 3rd etc.
Less dark souls and more Classic to WoTLK era ( despite the obvious outliers like Mimi or Heroic Lich King ).
Everything should be telegraphed in a manner that the player can read and react to. Give players the options to turn off of players spell effects, why do we need to see 5 Blizzards and 2 death and decays overtop a small light. Visual clutter is a real issue and would make the game FAR easier if you only had to see some of your spell effects with the option to turn the others on.
Allow there to be a end of date time on raiding content, the gaming landscape has changed so much that people will not settle for playing the same thing for months on end banging their heads against the wall. It should be okay to stop for 3-5 months at a time without any lasting consequences.

Easy fixes that would modernize the game.

[bloodykiller86]

Imo Mythic should remain as hard. Normal has varied but is trending harder and a bit out of reach of friends and family groups so maybe it should become a bit easier. I think Heroic should be adjusted somehow to have some granularity

normal is hard? even pugs clear it easily if they follow mechanics week 1. i dont remember SOFO normal ever being hard. most the time its people going into encounters with no knowledge whatsoever....shit they do this is in 15s in m+ lol and they they cry and moan

- - - Updated - - -

That will never happen since it it will fragment more players and since Raiding itself is struggling to find enough members ( due to an archaic design mostly ) they would further alienate them. The way that is stated it reminds me of specific separate but equal mindset that happened in the US. There are easier ways to fix raiding that would boost its popularity ( Outside of the first patch mind you, most people come back for that patch and give the raid a go but speaking more about after that initial blip ).

Make consumables last their full duration regardless if you died. The amount of setup time between attempts is annoyingly long and punishes the player for what exactly?
Smooth the difficulty curve by resetting the expansions difficulty every time. Stop assuming people have played for 18 years and have time to research raiding like a term paper. The first raid is always easier then the 2nd or 3rd etc.
Less dark souls and more Classic to WoTLK era ( despite the obvious outliers like Mimi or Heroic Lich King ).
Everything should be telegraphed in a manner that the player can read and react to. Give players the options to turn off of players spell effects, why do we need to see 5 Blizzards and 2 death and decays overtop a small light. Visual clutter is a real issue and would make the game FAR easier if you only had to see some of your spell effects with the option to turn the others on.
Allow there to be a end of date time on raiding content, the gaming landscape has changed so much that people will not settle for playing the same thing for months on end banging their heads against the wall. It should be okay to stop for 3-5 months at a time without any lasting consequences.

Easy fixes that would modernize the game.

its really not that long in an organized guild run...30secs-1min max if no one releases. soulstone res healer, mass ress, eat, raid buffs and you're good to go. people saying it takes 10mins between pulls must been running back every single time

i do wish we can turn off dps effects, id be happy only seeing healer effects because i cant see shit on the ground sometimes

[jeezusisacasual]

normal is hard? even pugs clear it easily if they follow mechanics week 1. i dont remember SOFO normal ever being hard. most the time its people going into encounters with no knowledge whatsoever....shit they do this is in 15s in m+ lol and they they cry and moan

- - - Updated - - -



its really not that long in an organized guild run...30secs-1min max if no one releases. soulstone res healer, mass ress, eat, raid buffs and you're good to go. people saying it takes 10mins between pulls must been running back every single time

i do wish we can turn off dps effects, id be happy only seeing healer effects because i cant see shit on the ground sometimes

Why not just spawn at the bosses entrance room. Like what purpose does that solve and having someone franticly get a soul stone or something there is a problem that they could just remove the entire headache in general. Anything to remove the logistical nightmares and archaic nature they have become, less like everquest more like pick up and play games not some long form months on end thing.

[Greenmagoo]

Whatever it'd take to make normal queueable would be about all I'd ask for. Putting it on the level of MoP LFR and increasing it ever so slightly probably would do that. That and making mythic 0 dungeons queueable would be neat. Probably enough to get me to consider resubbing if the expansion stories also seemed good.

Considering certain mechanics in MoP LFR had to be gutted that would be unlikely along with the constant complaints over MoP LFR difficulty. MoP LFR was the closest we got to normal because it was devs hair brained idea that casual organized raiders would happily ditch normal and do LFR and carry the rest of the players. Meanwhile normal got a difficulty buff to keep that gap while shifting a bunch of casual organized raiders out of organized raiding. Fallout of which in part resulted in the Flex difficulty and the high approval of the Flex mechanic and difficulty while still being an organized raid setting.

Personally I find large group content that requires teamwork and mild challenge while being random queue to be very frustrating. Easer to deal with such in smaller group settings such as 5 man content. Being able to see, teach, and learn mechanics is much easier while the hiding game or finger pointing is much harder to play off in smaller group based content.

[bloodykiller86]

Why not just spawn at the bosses entrance room. Like what purpose does that solve and having someone franticly get a soul stone or something there is a problem that they could just remove the entire headache in general. Anything to remove the logistical nightmares and archaic nature they have become, less like everquest more like pick up and play games not some long form months on end thing.

i get it i was just arguing against the fact that someone said it took 10+mins to start a raid boss after a wipe. never have i waited 10mins between pulls even if we're talking shit on discord lol

[jeezusisacasual]

i get it i was just arguing against the fact that someone said it took 10+mins to start a raid boss after a wipe. never have i waited 10mins between pulls even if we're talking shit on discord lol

That might be it but at the same time there is no reason for the slow nature of running back and getting buffed etc. It makes no logical sense for the raid design to be this archaic, its not everquest levels of bad but its bad for 2022.

[Soeroah]

Normal and LFR, definitely. Anything higher, I think it's fine as is, though I say that with no experience there.

[craigw]

no, no, no, and no.

[Weeps]

I’ve always thought mythic level difficulty was astoundingly idiotic from a business perspective.

Why make something only 1-3% of the entire fan base has access to?

Make that 50% of all heroic clearing guilds.

I’ve heard all arguments. Blah blah blah. I’ve raided mythic. Many times.

[khazmodan]

Normal needs to be far easier. It's practically a useless raid type in it's current state.

I totally agree with this because Normal should be the level that recruits people to raiding in the first place or be casual raiding for older people or people that just want a casual social experience. LFR is the worst experience for new players or players that want to see if there is something worth seeing because it is at best a cold anonymous experience with garbage rewards and at worst a fail, demoralizing, toxic time sink with very little feeling of control over your destiny. LFR should steer you towards normal raiding as much as possible by having lower gear rewards and higher difficulty and normal should be Vanilla easy with lower amounts of trash mobs. Normal should be much lower on time spent and should not be there to prepare you for Heroic, let normal be the casual social quick fun experience that it is meant to be.