Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[postman1782]

Re-read my post. I told you about the differences between documents responsive to an actual Congressional select committee and assertions of executive privilege. You should acknowledge the difference and respond considering the difference. I am not aware of a Mar-A-Lago Congressional select committee.

Wrong. The ONLY PERSON that can claim executive privilege ANYWHERE, doesn't matter if it is a local lawsuit or the Attorney General personally putting the cuffs on Trump, is the CURRENT FUCKING PRESIDENT. The SCOTUS decision specifically stated that.

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https://www.pennlive.com/news/2022/0...-governor.html

Reminder: Never. Trust. Trump.

TLDR: Trump posted a photo of himself and dozens of uniformed PA State Police troopers on his social media site.

Problem is, the picture was supposed to be private.

Because there appears to be department policy regarding needing prior authorization for uniformed officers to participate in political events like this.

The governor is now calling for an investigation.

Never. Trust. Trump.

All of them should be fired. No pension, no unemployment, nothing. They knowingly broke their employment agreements.

[SoulForge]

1) I hope the judges deciding on this are thinking ahead to President Harris leaving office. They would be setting precedent for her.
2) Even Barr was against the decision. Getting one judge to sign on was lucky enough, he'd have to do it another 10 times. That's asking a lot.
3) And again, the "special master" finding Executive Privilege documents still doesn't change the current investigation. It still would be WH property and Trump still can't have it.

This right here.

Conservatives/Republicans get real pissy when they set a precedent and then it gets used against them.

Remember the Fairness Doctrine anyone?

[Edge-]

Trump, master-appealer who appeals every decision he doesn't like, is big mad that the DOJ is appealing the special master decision.

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...cision-1741317

What a fuckin baby with a soiled diaper.

[Breccia]

DOJ asks judge to withhold about 100 documents from the special master, and more importantly, allowing them to continue to read them.

"They're kind of vital to national security," they said, "that's why Trump wasn't allowed to take them. Also, there is a criminal exception, thanks Nixon, and please infer whatever you want about us saying that under oath."

Oh, and they reminded the judge ("politely") that Trump doesn't own any of the government documents.

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DWAC delays vote, and spends $3 million to stay alive until they get quorum.

[cubby]

Simply what it says. The privilege endures the president's tenure and can be asserted and tested in Court.

Google and read the court decision if you need further information from the Supreme Court. I won't copy and paste the entire opinion. I would also ask you to google and read multiple articles if you need further details about what "attorney-client privilege" and "executive privilege" mean, as different from a judge evaluating and/or dismissing the claim, and as different from a FBI refusing to instruct its taint team to consider seized documents potentially protected by executive privilege. I think much of your confusion would be resolved by re-considering the difference between "The FBI refused to acknowledge the existence of potentially privileged documents" and "A future court decision might consider but reject the assertion of executive privilege over documents."

What I'm asking you, specifically, is what does that line from Nixon vs GSA mean in this case? Using the precedent case US vs Nixon as well. How are you saying this applied to the situation with the documents seized from MaL by the FBI?

(and apologies if you've summarized your position like this previously, and I missed it - you can just link the post and I'll find it from there)

[s_bushido]

My bet? The error is "we published a book filled with objective falsehoods and don't want to get sued".

Is that a thing? Publishers being held liable for the bullshit some unhinged propagandist author puts in a book? Don't think I've ever heard of that.

[gondrin]

Simply what it says. The privilege endures the president's tenure and can be asserted and tested in Court.

Google and read the court decision if you need further information from the Supreme Court. I won't copy and paste the entire opinion. I would also ask you to google and read multiple articles if you need further details about what "attorney-client privilege" and "executive privilege" mean, as different from a judge evaluating and/or dismissing the claim, and as different from a FBI refusing to instruct its taint team to consider seized documents potentially protected by executive privilege. I think much of your confusion would be resolved by re-considering the difference between "The FBI refused to acknowledge the existence of potentially privileged documents" and "A future court decision might consider but reject the assertion of executive privilege over documents."

Problem is, this isn't like Attorney Client privilege. Executive Privilege is only about communications between the sitting president and others he talks to so that he can do his job. However, it is only the current sitting president that can assert that, not previous ones.

Anything communications, writings, executive orders, correspondence, presents or anything else that involves the sitting President belongs to the Office of the Presidency, not the actual person who is President. Thing is, Biden could easily state it isn't privileged documents as far as Executive Privilege goes.

Thing is, Trump already tried to test it in court. He failed, numerous times.

[Ripster42]

Is that a thing? Publishers being held liable for the bullshit some unhinged propagandist author puts in a book? Don't think I've ever heard of that.

Yes. The whole thing about sec 230 is that social media platforms aren't held to the same standards as publishers. If you publish books with a bunch of defamatory claims, you can be held responsible.

[Breccia]

Is that a thing? Publishers being held liable for the bullshit some unhinged propagandist author puts in a book? Don't think I've ever heard of that.

Yes, publishers can be liable for the content they willingly publish. Remember, Dominion is going after FOX News.

[gondrin]

Is that a thing? Publishers being held liable for the bullshit some unhinged propagandist author puts in a book? Don't think I've ever heard of that.

They should slap a big ole sticker on it states "This book is a work of fiction. Nothing in it is true in any way."

Make that a condition of publishing the book.

[Ripster42]

They should slap a big ole sticker on it states "This book is a work of fiction. Nothing in it is true in any way."

Make that a condition of publishing the book.

This doesn't work if the work still defames real people. Netflix recently settled for something like this centered around queen's gambit where they tried to claim the whole thing was fictionalized. They settled after the judge said they couldn't use that argument because, despite netflix arguing the whole thing was fictionalized and people understood it not to be true, they were still using the person's real name and showed a reckless disregard for the truth.

So if you're going to try to use the argument that the book is a work of fiction, you'd better not reference real people at all.

[Breccia]

What I'm asking you, specifically, is what does that line from Nixon vs GSA mean in this case? Using the precedent case US vs Nixon as well. How are you saying this applied to the situation with the documents seized from MaL by the FBI?

Can Trump claim executive privilege to shield Mar-a-Lago documents?

U.S. courts have not definitively ruled on the extent to which former presidents can assert executive privilege. The U.S. Supreme Court last year side-stepped the question in Trump’s bid to block White House records from the Jan. 6 committee, leaving it a gray area in the law.

Former President Richard Nixon attempted to claim the privilege to prevent White House records from being made public after his resignation. The Court in that case said Nixon could be heard on his privilege claims but ultimately rejected his attempt to shield the records, finding the sitting president is “in the best position” to make privilege determinations.

To eventually win a court order shielding the records, Trump would first have to establish that he can assert the privilege even though he is no longer in office, said Heidi Kitrosser, a law professor at Northwestern University. She said the former president's team has only a "very weak argument" to do so, noting the lack of clarity from the Supreme Court.

Trump would then have to overcome Biden's position that executive privilege does not apply to the materials, and must show any harm from privilege violations outweighs the government's need for the documents in its criminal probe into Trump's possession of classified records, Kitrosser said.

In the case over presidential records at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, Biden deferred the decision on whether privilege applies to the National Archives and Records Administration. In a May letter to Trump’s private counsel, months before the raid, the national archivist said it "would not be viable" for Trump to assert executive privilege, as the records would only be viewed by other parts of the executive branch.

Allowing someone who is not in the executive branch to decide whether the privilege applies to records is unprecedented, experts said.

“Having an appointed third party decide between an incumbent’s and a former president’s claim violates the very constitutional basis of the privilege as a presidential power,” said Mark Rozell, dean of the Schar School of Policy and Government at George Mason University.

1) No ruling about Nixon has any meaning here. Nixon tried to assert privilege while not in office, and his claims were rejected. Trump is trying to assert new privilege, and the courts have specifically ruled against that. If Trump had asserted privilege before he left office, that would be a different story, but not one that's currently taking place.
2) Immediately after the courts ruled against Nixon in the context of this current case (and not some other, unrelated case), Congress passed a law Trump is now accused of breaking. Not only did Nixon lose, he made things worse for Trump, not better.
3) Pretty much any legal scholar has said Trump has a very difficult battle here, if not impossible, because his case is unPresidented and he has no proven leg to stand on. For every one that backs Trump (literal dick-sucking not required) there's ten who disagree. Including Barr.
4) The entire issue is irrelevant for the current situation. NARA, as listed above, wanted everything back that Trump stole, including privileged material, because Trump isn't allowed to have it. At best, Trump can try to block it from being subpoena'd by the Jan 6th committee, but that wasn't the warrant that was served. There is no reasonable situation in which Trump not only steals privileged material, but gets to keep it.
4a) Well, except lawyer-client, but the FBI has already separated those out.
5) And there is still a crime exception. Biden can read everything, and if he sees privilege is blocking his ability as head of the Executive Branch to enforce the law, he can remove the privilege. If Trump continues to push the issue, Biden might simply ask Garland's opinion on the subject (knowing the answer ahead of time) and follow his advice.

And finally:

6) When someone tries to say "you don't understand lawyer-client privilege" to an actual lawyer, that response should be treated with the lack of respect it deserves.
7) When someone posts a statement, that statement is repeatedly challenge with solid, viable sources, and they respond with "I don't have time to explain, Google it yourself" they do not have an argument. They have a talking point, abd probably one they don't understand, possibly by grabbing a single line from a random court case that happens to have their search keywords in it.

Not even tehdang believes tehdang.

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So if you're going to try to use the argument that the book is a work of fiction, you'd better not reference real people at all.

Also, the author would very likely take offense to his work being called false.

[s_bushido]

Yes. The whole thing about sec 230 is that social media platforms aren't held to the same standards as publishers. If you publish books with a bunch of defamatory claims, you can be held responsible.

hmm...I see.

[Flarelaine]

At least they're delivering some laughs by triggering Trump. Because outside of that they're largely pretty fuckin useless at doing much more beyond hoovering up some liberal donor dollars because most of them probably can't find gainful employment within their former political party operations.

Don't underestimate the potential impact of goading Trump into PR fiascos.

[Breccia]

So, the DOJ's counterfiling is now public. I'm okay at reading legalese, obviously @cubby would be better, but...it reads like "you fucked up".

Here's just an example:

Finally, Plaintiff himself declined to assert any claim of executive privilege over the
classified records at the point when it would have been appropriate to do so. On May 11,
2022, Plaintiff’s custodian of records was served with a grand jury subpoena seeking “[a]ny
and all documents or writings in the custody or control of Donald J. Trump and/or the Office
of Donald J. Trump bearing classification markings.” D.E. 48 Attachment C. To the extent
that Plaintiff believed that any such records could be subject to a valid assertion of executive
privilege, he should have advised the government of such a claim at that time and could have
attempted to pursue such a claim through a motion to quash. But despite having several weeks
to respond to the subpoena, Plaintiff did not do so. Instead, on June 3, 2022, Plaintiff’s
counsel produced a set of classified records to the government, and Plaintiff’s custodian
certified that “[a]ny and all responsive documents” had been produced after a “diligent
search.” D.E. 48 Attachment E. Plaintiff cannot now maintain—following the government’s
seizure of additional classified records that Plaintiff failed to produce—that classified records
obtained in the search, which were responsive to the grand jury subpoena, are shielded from
the government’s review by executive privilege. And his failure to raise any such claim in
response to the subpoena both undercuts his entitlement to equitable relief and further
underscores that no plausible claim can be made now.

Yeah, this is a solid point. "If the items were really privileged, he would have said so before". And there's 18 pages of that.

The DOJ does cite the Nixon case, which 100% backs their claim, because the documents are part of a criminal investigation. Which this is.

First, the government is likely to succeed in its appeal of the Order as it applies to
classified records. Indeed, the government is likely to succeed even under the Court’s own
reasoning, which focused principally on Plaintiff’s “personal documents.” D.E. 64 at 9; see id.
at 12-13, 14-16, 20-21. Plaintiff does not and could not assert that he owns or has any
possessory interest in classified records; that he has any right to have those government
records returned to him; or that he can advance any plausible claims of attorney-client
privilege as to such records that would bar the government from reviewing or using them.
And although this Court suggested that Plaintiff might be able to assert executive privilege as
to some of the seized records, Supreme Court precedent makes clear that any possible
assertion of privilege that Plaintiff might attempt to make over the classified records would be
overcome by the government’s “demonstrated, specific need” for that evidence. United States
v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683, 713 (1974) (“United States v. Nixon”). Among other things, the classified
records are the very subject of the government’s ongoing investigation.

The DOJ basically give the judge a week to change her mind, or they'll appeal an instantly win.

[SoulForge]

So, the DOJ's counterfiling is now public. I'm okay at reading legalese, obviously @cubby would be better, but...it reads like "you fucked up".

Here's just an example:



Yeah, this is a solid point. "If the items were really privileged, he would have said so before". And there's 18 pages of that.

The DOJ does cite the Nixon case, which 100% backs their claim, because the documents are part of a criminal investigation. Which this is.



The DOJ basically give the judge a week to change her mind, or they'll appeal an instantly win.

And they better win on appeal. This would be such a terrible precedent to set no matter who is or was in office.

[Gorsameth]

Based on the backlash even among conservative circles I don't think just assuming it would be upheld because the appeal courts are Republican favoured is a fir position.

This appears to be just 1 rogue judge.

[SoulForge]

Based on the backlash even among conservative circles I don't think just assuming it would be upheld because the appeal courts are Republican favoured is a fir position.

This appears to be just 1 rogue judge.

A judge who was appointed only because of her age. She had no experience at all. The only requirements was being on a list for the Federalist Society and being really young in order to be a judge for decades.

[Endus]

hmm...I see.

Here's the basic difference between publishing and internet sites protected by Section 230;

Publishing only happens with direct approval. You submit, editors look the work over and choose whether or not they'll publish. This is even true of self-publication companies, who won't edit the material, but will check it over to be sure it fits within their ethical guidelines, precisely because the law would hold them liable if they didn't and something unlawful got published.

What that would look like on a site like, say, MMO-Champion, is if every single forum post got flagged for moderator approval, and a mod had to come along and personally review and approve every single post. Obviously, posting would grind to a halt and the site would die as a result. The Section 230 protections exist precisely because the model is unlike real-world publication and there's no oversight/review before "publication"; doing so simply is not feasible. If you had a digital journal which published digital articles after board review, those wouldn't get the same protections, because despite being entirely Internet-based, it's still following that normal publication approach.

[SoulForge]

Here's the basic difference between publishing and internet sites protected by Section 230;

Publishing only happens with direct approval. You submit, editors look the work over and choose whether or not they'll publish. This is even true of self-publication companies, who won't edit the material, but will check it over to be sure it fits within their ethical guidelines, precisely because the law would hold them liable if they didn't and something unlawful got published.

What that would look like on a site like, say, MMO-Champion, is if every single forum post got flagged for moderator approval, and a mod had to come along and personally review and approve every single post. Obviously, posting would grind to a halt and the site would die as a result. The Section 230 protections exist precisely because the model is unlike real-world publication and there's no oversight/review before "publication"; doing so simply is not feasible. If you had a digital journal which published digital articles after board review, those wouldn't get the same protections, because despite being entirely Internet-based, it's still following that normal publication approach.

Very well explained. There are too many people who don't understand what S230 allows and what the 1st Amendment allows for this subject.