It's the design of the raids that are killing them. You have to be in the top 100 or so, for Mythic raids to be an effective gearing method. Killing 2-3 Mythic bosses just gets you nothing and Heroic is way too low item level compared to everything else. As a semi-casual guild your only source of loot is maybe getting lucky on first 4 bosses on mythic getting a loot piece a week and one mythic level and one heroic end boss level loot from the vault, that are shared with mythic ilevel loot from M+.
I don't really know what the answer is, some people seem to like the absolutely punishing nature of Mythic raids, but maybe they could all just be for achievements and mounts. While Heroic is the highest ilevel loot from raids and is comparable to M+15 vault loot. As is, there just isn't any real benefit on running Heroic unless you really like raiding with your friends. Especially now in season 4 when you can instantly upgrade your M+ end of dungeon loot to higher than Heroic raid loot and spend a lot less time doing it.
Mm. I don't remember Cata start being bad, you basically had quite a few bosses to kill that weren't even super hard. Certainly less grindy than the current version of WoW. The heroic dungeons were refreshingly hard, yet still quite easy. I truly had more fun at the start of Cata as a raider than any part of WotLK outside of Ulduar hard modes, maybe DS was a bit of a let down, especially with Madness being so easy. But overall the espansion was pretty awesome and Firelands alone made it all pretty freaking awesome.
Maybe some guilds were slower and couldn't clear BWD and Twilight in the same night, but I don't remember it being bad, there was fairly little trash to kill in both raids and TotFW had even less trash to kill. You spent more tíme flying and grouping up than killing trash from what I remember.
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There was nothing wrong with the raids, there was everything wrong with front loading the content that much and then only having firelands and dragon soul for the rest of the xpac.
Also save me the "you don't have to clear everything in a week" bs. You clearly didn't raid heroic at the time and full clear them before firelands if you don't understand what a grind it was and with current WoW difficulty from more recent expansions trying to pull some bullshit like that would pretty much be the killing blow to the entire raid scene outside of the top 0.01% or super casual people that never clear mythic.
It's really painful to see people act like cata launch raid content isn't a problem now when it was a very real problem and blizzard publicly addressed it at the start of MoP by announcing they wouldn't be doing that again even while having 3 beta tested raids ready to go. Just because you where 14 years old and only clearing normal doesn't change the actual reality of what went down.
Last edited by Tech614; 2022-09-10 at 02:21 PM.
Yes i'm questioning all of it. Mythic+ serves the interests of the few. Ya know the few people that rush through everything without actually enjoying the expansion for what it is. If you don't keep up with their pace you'll be left in the dust never able to catch up. The heroic dungeons of olde were a much better mechanism for gearing, especially when you could grind away badges/points for a piece you actually wanted and not just wish upon the RNG gods like now.
Hmmm... I respectfully disagree. I do not play at all competitively now; in fact I only came back to muck around for a month or so in world content. But some of my fondest WoW memories are from my M+ team back in Legion and BFA. We knew each other better and had tighter teamwork than any raid team or guild I've ever been part of. We worked to make each other better, and we pushed ourselves to not let the team down. We knew just how to help each other, and who needed help with what. It was among the best times I've had in the game.
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That's personal bias. The game hasn't been good by a long shot since WoD. Sure it was cut short for reasons we'll probably know but the raids were top notch, PvP gearing was probably the best it's ever been and Challenge Modes were just coming into their own. If they had kept glyph around and added more abilities to the talent point system they remove in Mists the game would be top notch. Instead it's just a shell of it's former self.
Nope. Raids are dying cause they are unrewarding and awfully slow in this day and age where there are alternatives.
Forge and mythic+ aren't the problems. The raid is.
A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore
I would rather they just make raiding closer to FFXIV, smaller quicker more compact raids, make heroic like savage and mythic like ultimate (cosmetic only for prestige) or have the same larger raids they have now with just a few bosses having a mythic mode for the high end raiders to tackle. So many of my guild quit as people just dont have the time to commit 3-4 evenings every week to clear mythic each tier, and when you dont have time to mythic raid you lose out on the best gear, which frustrated a lot of my guidlies into leaving
But he is right... to a degree.
My old heroic guild raided 3-4 times a week. Everyone knew the tactics and they honestly tried hard. But they have never been able to reliably clear heroic.
I swtiched to my mythic guild. We basically raid two times a week a max 3 hours including break. We never cleared mythic but we get reliably to the last few bosses at some point.
Some people will never progress into mythic. Skill is for many the reason. Not the only. But a big one.
And that is fine. That is the reason we have different difficulties with basically the same rewards (mythic gets a bit of a glow) you can get next expansion while facerolling.
No one NEEDs to clear everything. And not everbody CAN clear everything.
i agree with that and would like a similar approach to handle the current raiding situation. Perhaps i am in the minority but gear is not a big motivator for me as i stop my sub 2-3 weeks in a patch based on when i get KSM and i will reactivate it slightly before the next season to prepare whatever i am maining again and my last toon only got to 288 Ilvl which is well below the big mythic raiders.
No. I'd say raiding is killing raiding.
The raid have not been fun lately - the reward for difficulty is skewed. There's just very little point for me to spend a night chewing glass on a boss with inscrutable mechanics to half the raid team when the reward for doing so is sub-par to what I get from M+. The raid isn't fun enough for me to go for fun's sake. If I could still make progress towards gear I need by going raiding with my casual raid guild, that would be something different.
There needs to be an incentive for running less difficult content.
very true . but what was hiding those bad players in past was that personal responsibility even in hardmodes was much much smaller.
blizzard should stop designing those stpuid overcomplciated mehcanics and go back to much simpler encounters design like in wolk-mop era.
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they are unrewarding because raid tuning has reached the point when its plain stupid overcomplicated mess not just chalenging.
i had breaking point this tier - retunred to raiding in CN - did normal then hc then in SoD i went back to mythci raiding but i really didnt enjoy nerzhul or soulrender and painsmith mythic has broken me and reminded me why i stopped raiding back at end of WoD . after few raid nights i was like " no nope nope nope f... this garbage" - and focused on m+ - went from doing m+ on 6 chars back in sanctum to doing it on 13 chars - all of them are now doing +15s - and i have fun playing it even though occasionaly people leave keys and waste my time . but i have fun
i did not have fun wiping in raids. it felt like time completly wasted.
i much rather do m+ for those 6-9 hours a week then raid ever again . even if they lower the rewards im still not going back to raiding. maybe im just to old for raids but i cant imagine myself wasting couple of raid nights each week because certain people are incapable of doing certain mechancis and kill is a lottery whether game assigns those mechanics to them or not.
Last edited by kamuimac; 2022-09-12 at 03:03 PM.
I played since TBC, stopped in Shadowlands.
The tuning is the key though, if you think of TBC instead, it was MAG, Gruul, and a multiple boss raid.
A suitable mix would be good.
Bottom line is, running the same raid for weeks on end is just dull.
From what I remember it was always nice to recharge the batteries in some 1-2 boss raid wether it was in TBC, Wrath or Cata.
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The arduous and boring nature of raiding killed it. Better content is M+. sadly, recycled far too much.
Smaller raids with content patches, along with two dungeons for m+, would be preferable.