Should raiding be easier across all difficulties?

[bloodykiller86]

That might be it but at the same time there is no reason for the slow nature of running back and getting buffed etc. It makes no logical sense for the raid design to be this archaic, its not everquest levels of bad but its bad for 2022.

look i get the issue completely, but in organized guilds this isnt an issue at all. you soul stone before pull and thats about it. but in a perfect world yes rezzing at boss or at a close by checkpoint would be nice addition. personally though this doesnt really apply to me. My guild always soul stones and we continue to push within 30secs-1.5min max

[Aresk]

Wha...? I think you misunderstand. I didn't mean to imply you'd need to farm M+ to raid. I meant that each form of content would have its own gear. I can't say with any certainty because I'm obviously just reading into what was implied in an interview but I will say that the current paradigm does have some issues which warrant addressing. The main concern is that Heroic-level guilds often have two types of raiders: Those who M+ and those who don't. And currently since M+ offers gear that is as-good-or-better than Heroic, it unevenly distributes the raiders between haves and have-nots. Delineating gear between M+ and raiding -- while adding to gear bloat -- would at the very least help prevent these fringe situations from occurring. I think it would further alleviate the concerns from players who prefer M+ to raiding from feeling like they're compelled to raid in order to be competitive at the highest levels. Each form of content would be able to exist in their own spaces.

That would be fine if they tuned heroic's DPS requirements down a bit. Right now, M+ gear seems to be required for hitting DPS numbers if you're an average (i.e. ~50th percentile) raid.

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i do wish we can turn off dps effects, id be happy only seeing healer effects because i cant see shit on the ground sometimes

DPS would complain so much in the situation that players didn't see other players' DPS effects. "Stop moving the mobs out of my ground effects!"

look i get the issue completely, but in organized guilds this isnt an issue at all. you soul stone before pull and thats about it. but in a perfect world yes rezzing at boss or at a close by checkpoint would be nice addition. personally though this doesnt really apply to me. My guild always soul stones and we continue to push within 30secs-1.5min max

You're assuming that the raid has a warlock. My raid is fortunate enough to have one (and it does make wipe recovery quick), but we regularly run with no priest buff, no warrior buff, no mage buff, no monk debuff, and no demon hunter debuff because we only have ten to twelve people depending on who can make it on a given night (our warrior quit in 9.0 because of anima; our one priest is on break; our other priest swapped to shaman healing; our monk canceled his sub; our demon hunter had a baby and can't make raids anymore; our mage swapped to hunter).

[jeezusisacasual]

look i get the issue completely, but in organized guilds this isnt an issue at all. you soul stone before pull and thats about it. but in a perfect world yes rezzing at boss or at a close by checkpoint would be nice addition. personally though this doesnt really apply to me. My guild always soul stones and we continue to push within 30secs-1.5min max

We raided without warlocks and we refused to add more people into the collective before it faded away since why raid on a time schedule when you can equal or greater rewards without those time constraints. But at this point anything resembling the old paradigm of log on specific nights at specific times would get me to not even bother if that was the only way to get Tier gear or progress your toon in a meaningful manner. I love the diabloifcation of WoW, it allows you to get what you want rather quickly, 2-3 weeks and then stop for 5-6 months at a time. Its win / win.

[bloodykiller86]

We raided without warlocks and we refused to add more people into the collective before it faded away since why raid on a time schedule when you can equal or greater rewards without those time constraints. But at this point anything resembling the old paradigm of log on specific nights at specific times would get me to not even bother if that was the only way to get Tier gear or progress your toon in a meaningful manner. I love the diabloifcation of WoW, it allows you to get what you want rather quickly, 2-3 weeks and then stop for 5-6 months at a time. Its win / win.

i guess lol organized guilds raid on a time schedule and do other stuff on downtime like m+.

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That would be fine if they tuned heroic's DPS requirements down a bit. Right now, M+ gear seems to be required for hitting DPS numbers if you're an average (i.e. ~50th percentile) raid.

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DPS would complain so much in the situation that players didn't see other players' DPS effects. "Stop moving the mobs out of my ground effects!"



You're assuming that the raid has a warlock. My raid is fortunate enough to have one (and it does make wipe recovery quick), but we regularly run with no priest buff, no warrior buff, no mage buff, no monk debuff, and no demon hunter debuff because we only have ten to twelve people depending on who can make it on a given night (our warrior quit in 9.0 because of anima; our one priest is on break; our other priest swapped to shaman healing; our monk canceled his sub; our demon hunter had a baby and can't make raids anymore; our mage swapped to hunter).

that's where having a recruitment officer becomes important. our recruitment officer is a god at it.....if anything too good lol they've killed a few other guilds in the process xD lol

[Ssateneth]

Leave mythic alone. it's fine. It's supposed to be crush-your-hope difficult; if everything is faceroll, you have nothing to aspire to. Challenge keeps the game interesting.

[Opeth69]

Leave mythic alone. it's fine. It's supposed to be crush-your-hope difficult; if everything is faceroll, you have nothing to aspire to. Challenge keeps the game interesting.

If challenge was interesting raiding wouldnt be dying off. Look at classic where raising is unbelievably easy compared to live, it is far more popular. People want the best gear and to have a fun relaxed challenge, only a few tiny % of players want an extreme challenge, if you build a game around those players you kill it for the rest

[Celement]

Leave mythic alone. it's fine. It's supposed to be crush-your-hope difficult; if everything is faceroll, you have nothing to aspire to. Challenge keeps the game interesting.

I am not entirely sure mythic is fine... it's fine a month or so later for when the bosses are not locked to rather specific comps but I don't think that is good design.

[Battlebeard]

Absolutely!

Mythic should be like current Heroics
Heroic should be like current Normal
Normal should be like current LFR
LFR should also be even easier, especially lower health pools etc, it should be near impossible to wipe, and should serve the purpose as a mode where you just see the enemies, see the environment of the raid, complete quests and see the story evolve. Gear here should be nerfed too ofc, you should never feel obligated to do this.

[Relapses]

If challenge was interesting raiding wouldnt be dying off. Look at classic where raising is unbelievably easy compared to live, it is far more popular. People want the best gear and to have a fun relaxed challenge, only a few tiny % of players want an extreme challenge, if you build a game around those players you kill it for the rest

...which is why you have M+ available to be an easily accessible way to gear your toon. Mythic raiding doesn't need to be easier or more accessible as long as you can get similar rewards from M+.

[Opeth69]

...which is why you have M+ available to be an easily accessible way to gear your toon. Mythic raiding doesn't need to be easier or more accessible as long as you can get similar rewards from M+.

The problem is the best m+ gear still comes from mythic raiding, I know a lot of m+ players who feel like have to raid just to get the gear they need to push m+ which is pretty demotivating after a while. In DF it looks like with the Item levels being higher from the last few bosses it could be more of the same again which I think is a huge mistake, m+ is the most popular endgame activity but feels like blizz wants to treat it like a side activity to raiding

[Gasparde]

If anything, I'd like it to be more accessible, but I don't see how that could be possible without nerfing it into oblivion.

I'm not 12 anymore, I don't have 12 hours per day, 7 days a week to absolutely nerd out as if there's no tomorrow. But that's simply what you have to do if you wanna raid mythic - I mean, or you could not do that and then be stuck raiding for 3-4 months. "Progressing" for that amount of time just doesn't feel fun, it's exhausting, you're constantly relearning shit because and eventually shit gets nerfed anyways, so you're not even getting the actual challenge but instead the dumbed down version.

I'd love just being able to log on, hop into a raid, and clear it in a reasonable time. Which I can kinda do with normal PuGs. Problem is that normal doesn't offer the slightest challenge... nor a relevant reward. Heroic offers the slightest challenge... and is thus completely out of reach for 4 out of 5 PuGs... and still doesn't offer a particularly good reward. And mythic is just entriely out of reach... but at least offers a decent reward... sometimes.

I don't really know how you could ever combat that. The biggest problem obviously being the need for 20 man, but then also some bosses requiring hundreds of pulls which just inevitably takes weeks... so the only true solution would probably be smaller raid sizes and easier difficulty, but then people would bitch about loot again...

I like the m+ model in that sense that loot eventually just stops becoming a thing and that you're doing shit simply for the challenge. To this day I'm still doing 15s on a char that doesn't need anything from 15s anymore, but I'm also doing 25s for no other reason than wanting to do 25s. The circumstance that I can just log on and get into said 15s or 25s pretty much instantly at pretty much any time of the day is also a huge bonus. I miss raiding, but I'm pretty sure I'll just never want to get back into it simply due to the enormous overhead that comes with it - and I don't see how they could ever fix that.

[Gaidax]

I don't care what they do to LFR-Heroic, I don't really focus those aside from occasional patch launch Heroic farm for several weeks.

Mythic, IMO they need to make it just a tad easier than how Sepulcher launched - things like Halondrus were pushing it way too hard. But that it - it should be an ultimate challenge after all.

Then they can keep doing what they are doing and nerf it over course of expansion - that works well, IMO.

[Usernameforforums]

Absolutely!

Mythic should be like current Heroics
Heroic should be like current Normal
Normal should be like current LFR
LFR should also be even easier, especially lower health pools etc, it should be near impossible to wipe, and should serve the purpose as a mode where you just see the enemies, see the environment of the raid, complete quests and see the story evolve. Gear here should be nerfed too ofc, you should never feel obligated to do this.

Let’s take this a step farther adding a difficulty mode that adds cosmetics only. I’m imagining it being called legend difficulty. In legend difficulty it would feature 1 boss kind of like ffxiv ultimates and it being something like a 30minute fight that’s harder than current mythic. Really, exactly like ultimate. This is only for bragging rights and cosmetics.

This way it’ll satisfy the top end raiders while also having the average raider dip their toes into harder content.

[tomten]

Making EVERYTHING easier just because one raid was a bit more difficult (sepulcher) helps no one and makes overall content worse taking some people out of the game because it was their content ( no matte how mayn people actually finish said content ) or making it boring or impossibel for others like normal guilds who suddenly nearly breeze through normal but cannot clear heroic.

TLDR: Difficulty of raids is fine. One outliner doesn't make a rule.

I'm fine with that.
We're talking maybe 100 people lol.
"Their content" when hall of fame didn't close for LITERALLY MONTHS lol... You are so out of touch its funny.

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Absolutely!

Mythic should be like current Heroics
Heroic should be like current Normal
Normal should be like current LFR
LFR should also be even easier, especially lower health pools etc, it should be near impossible to wipe, and should serve the purpose as a mode where you just see the enemies, see the environment of the raid, complete quests and see the story evolve. Gear here should be nerfed too ofc, you should never feel obligated to do this.

LFR should be the place where you go to learn the fights. Make it impossible to wipe but at least teach people the mechanics they're gonna be facing in normal. prepare them.
And nerf normal, heroic and mythic by 75%/50%/25%.

[charlesmaynes]

Yes. Consistency and balance are required. A guild that defeated a high-level boss in x minutes during one expansion ought to be able to do the same during the following one. People give up when tasks are made more difficult or time-consuming.

[khazmodan]

...which is why you have M+ available to be an easily accessible way to gear your toon. Mythic raiding doesn't need to be easier or more accessible as long as you can get similar rewards from M+.

Mythic+ is not interesting to most casuals and since heroics are not a progression choice, the expansion is over very early, and without a reason to play for almost 2 years it is easier to not come back at all.

[Caiphon]

If challenge was interesting raiding wouldnt be dying off. Look at classic where raising is unbelievably easy compared to live, it is far more popular. People want the best gear and to have a fun relaxed challenge, only a few tiny % of players want an extreme challenge, if you build a game around those players you kill it for the rest

Stuff like Sunwell Plateau, Hard mode Mimiron/Yogg and Heroic ICC were not all that easy compared to live though...? I don't know a single person who was 'relaxed' during their run for Light of Dawn.

[Gorsameth]

Stuff like Sunwell Plateau, Hard mode Mimiron/Yogg and Heroic ICC were not all that easy compared to live though...? I don't know a single person who was 'relaxed' during their run for Light of Dawn.

Stuff look longer because the players, aka we, were considerable worse or because it was artificially limited.

I have little doubt that if you could find 20 people from current top 10 guilds that have never done Firefighter before it would still die in a few hours. And that's mostly because they will still need to figure things out, if they had a guide it would be dead even faster.

[Mendzia]

Delete LFR an Mythic... or make both with only cosmetic gear + mounts/titles/achieves for Mythic.
Normal is perfectly fine imho.
Make Heroic raids harder (between current HC and Mythic).

[VinceVega]

I'm fine with that.
We're talking maybe 100 people lol.
"Their content" when hall of fame didn't close for LITERALLY MONTHS lol... You are so out of touch its funny.

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LFR should be the place where you go to learn the fights. Make it impossible to wipe but at least teach people the mechanics they're gonna be facing in normal. prepare them.
And nerf normal, heroic and mythic by 75%/50%/25%.

Mythic is not just the endboss genius.
You don't have to clear to have fun in there. But whatever.
If you think the game gets better by taking content out sure. Go on. I doubt it.
There are a good deal more people somewhere in mythic than people tend to believe,

But the only thing people care about is clearing and fucking over top end players for whatever reason