How did RDF ruined the social aspect??.

[Oneirophobia]

If "situations make you toxic" is your worldview... you've got problems. A lot of child abusers have the same defense, "I'm not a bad person but they just wouldn't stop crying!!" Is there a limit to patience then too? Or is it that some people are not equipped or well adjusted to tolerate friction and lash out.

Don't you think it's a bit of a jump between being rude in an online video game and beating your offspring?

[tomten]

Players, universally in every single feedback thread about the modern direction of the game: WoW feels like a lobby game, where is the RPG?

This guy when asked to remove one of the few RPG elements left in the game:

Try reading the conversation before giving your opinion lol...

[Fkiolaris]

I've tried retail when I stopped raiding TBC (end of BT) waiting for wrath. While those things you mention are absolutely true, you have those things in retail with mythic+, there is no more socialization in dungeons, where there absolutely is in classic. The experience of some people may vary, but I had a very hard time chatting with anyone in retail while in dungeons because there is no time to type (and voice is too intrusive) in an m+. Without chatting, there is no social engagement. The whole experience in retail is a race. That's not *always* the case in classic, even late in the expansion. Over 2 months of running dungeons, mythic+ and LFR, there is very, very little if any socialization in retail outside of guilds.

I've resubbed to classic for Wrath and that was a vastly different experience for me when it comes to just making friends in a levelling/gearing dungeon. And the reason that it's impossible to be social in retail is the race mentality created by M+ for every single type of dungeon, m+ or not.

Which is why for many of us classic isn't a side experience, a curiosity, it's the World of Warcraft we love. Not World of Mobile Diablo.

And the point that was made and you completely missed is that the endgame 5man content in Retail does not have the automated LFD tool, so for people wanting that experience you should go there. If it sucks for whatever reasons (and I am with you on that one 100%), it does not mean you or anybody else should come into classic and take away options from me to suite your preferences, especially when said option is one of the defining aspects of the expansion and many of us are looking forward to it.

[anon5123]

You are confusing the Classic Community with yourself. The majority of people want RDF in some form. Not wanting some form of RFD in WotLK is the minority view.

forums are not a majority of the playerbase

[TrollHunter3000]

no. the teleport thing is not a must. You just want it because you're lazy. Play retail if you want to be lazy.

- - - Updated - - -

have you been living under a rock? Blizzard has specifically said they are going to come up with a system that rewards you for doing heroics later on. Obviously it's not needed at the start of Wrath.

yeah bruh you lazy af if you don't sit there and press num lock and half afk while your character auto flies to a dungeon and you watch youtube.

[FireVoodoo]

forums are not a majority of the playerbase

Precisely. 'Community' is a tricky thing.

Remember how loud it was to have what become "Season of mastery"? Check out servers now. Faster leveling, herbs and ore on every corner x3, harder bosses. What could possibly go wrong?!

As for RDF, I believe 'Community' would prevail once again.

I had a great ride with WotLK the first time, I liked RFD the moment it was introduced, I hated it later (particularly LFR thing) and hate ever since.

I'm not about to rush neither into game nor to judge this whole conundrum as to whether it is a good thing or not.

All I want to say is, beware of the loudest voices of the 'Community'.

Original game design of the Vanilla was very nicely tuned, like a sophisticated clock mechanism.

Blizz were busy making it a mess ever since TBC.

They improved Gfx, landscape designs (I truly miss that in Classics) but not the gameplay.

Clearly, RFD is not the best thing they came up with.

[anon5123]

Remember how loud it was to have what become "Season of mastery"? Check out servers now. Faster leveling, herbs and ore on every corner x3, harder bosses. What could possibly go wrong?!

To be fair, SoM has a much faster release schedule for content, hence why they made so many parts of the game "faster" like that. Faster leveling, faster/more gathering, etc.

And in general SoM was really experimental, like a testing ground for new ideas and features for vanilla. The whole thing was just one big experiment.....with pretty horrible timing because they released it when everyone was still on the TBC hype train.

[Akibaboy]

Don't you think it's a bit of a jump between being rude in an online video game and beating your offspring?

It is a jump! That's the point. Imagine not have access to legitimate features that were in the original video game because a few people can't regulate their emotions while interacting with it. I'm saying that people adopting the same defense on something designed for fun, something so comparatively benign is dumb... and we shouldn't let them dictate everyone else's experience.

[anon5123]

It is a jump! That's the point. Imagine not have access to legitimate features that were in the original video game because a few people can't regulate their emotions while interacting with it. I'm saying that people adopting the same defense on something designed for fun, something so comparatively benign is dumb... and we shouldn't let them dictate everyone else's experience.

People being trolls/assholes/ninjas in LFD was not "a few people", it was almost every group. With no social responsibility, people are free to be as douchey as they want with 0 repercussions. On a normal server, if you do shit like that you'll get blacklisted pretty quickly and nobody will want to group with you anymore.

LFD makes the game effectively anonymous which encourages bad behavior.

[Akibaboy]

People being trolls/assholes/ninjas in LFD was not "a few people", it was almost every group. With no social responsibility, people are free to be as douchey as they want with 0 repercussions. On a normal server, if you do shit like that you'll get blacklisted pretty quickly and nobody will want to group with you anymore.

LFD makes the game effectively anonymous which encourages bad behavior.

You and I played wildly different WoW 3.3s. Wrath dungeons were so easy that there was no need to be a troll, an asshole, or ninja any of the garbage that dropped in there. We were there for badges and slammed through them with easy. The only exception was The Oculus because people didn't get the dragon mechanics. I feel like the collective WoW IQ is high enough where it wouldn't be an issue. We'll see. Aside from that, I don't remember any problems... it was when Cata introduced hard LFD content that the shit hit the fan big time.

If you were leveling in pre-wrath content with LFD... the power bloat that revamped talents and baked in effects provided made it so that 5 DPS could effective do leveling dungeons, but since you rolled a Tank and Heals you were more than good. Seriously, even now in Wrath pre-patch dungeons are faceroll because every toon basically got 50% stronger overnight. It was a great way for completionists who wanted to knock out that annoying quest from Stormwind Cathedral to actually find a group to do it, instead of it being a dead dungeon.

[Tumile]

Every western MMO that has launched after WotLK without an LFD tool had to backtrack so hard on that decision that it wasn't even funny. And there are multiple good reasons for that: a) after the nth time doing a dungeon, you just want to get it done asap and the LFD is the best way to get going bar none. b) it gives the dps players a more realistic chance of getting a group than having to pay stupid amounts of gold to get a tank or a booster. c) it allows players to click the "queue" button and get on with playing the game while the group is formed, aka having fun with the game.

You guys are constantly confusing the "joy" of organising raids (a twice-a-week activity) and the associated interactions with doing dungeons multiple times on a daily basis. You don't provide the tools for the majority of players to get these done and then the players will go as they have done in every other MMO that launched without the LFD tool. Because to your "optimise the fun out of the game" extreme there is the other side of the spectrum, the "I can't even play the game because they removed the most basic feature that MMOs have for the last 10+ years".

Oh I dont disagree, im fairly indiferrent, but if you were to put a gun to my head, I would pick no LFD, I'm talking about people spinning these insane webs through meticulous mental gymnastics to paint this picture that anyone who disagree with them is a literal demon who just wants to gatekeep them from loot, like how would removing LFD even accomplish that goal?

The topic of LFD I would be surprised if it doesnt make it in, the players base as a whole is way too entitled for it not to happen, casual or hardcore elitist, it doesnt really matter, they will feel entitled to have it in the game, and people who dont want it in are mostly similar to me, just slightly in favor for it to be gone in my opinion. LFD is not the hill to die on for them.

also plenty of games did fine without LFD, so that statement isnt exactly true. While Runescape did not launch after wrath, OSRS did, and it does not have LFD, GW2 didnt have LFD when I played it atleast, but i havent played it since they launched the first expansion so at this point i might be very out of touch, but even if it has one now, the base game was out for a long time before I quit, I would not call that backtracking hard.

I could probably try and find more, but those are the ones that came to mind immediately.

Also have 0 sympathy for DPS players, it is part of the choice of gameplay, you want to play an overstacked role, and dont want to play ur tank off-specc, or a tank alt? then this is part of the package. it is fine to be selfish like that, but you have to accept the consequences of that choice as well. I deliberately play w/e is usually needed by the group for that reason, to avoid that consequence, not because I find Feral druid exciting to play in TBC. but all of that just spins around to the self entitlement of wow players, the behavior of a spoiled child if you will.

[Relapses]

Oh I dont disagree, im fairly indiferrent, but if you were to put a gun to my head, I would pick no LFD, I'm talking about people spinning these insane webs through meticulous mental gymnastics to paint this picture that anyone who disagree with them is a literal demon who just wants to gatekeep them from loot, like how would removing LFD even accomplish that goal?

The topic of LFD I would be surprised if it doesnt make it in, the players base as a whole is way too entitled for it not to happen, casual or hardcore elitist, it doesnt really matter, they will feel entitled to have it in the game, and people who dont want it in are mostly similar to me, just slightly in favor for it to be gone in my opinion. LFD is not the hill to die on for them.

also plenty of games did fine without LFD, so that statement isnt exactly true. While Runescape did not launch after wrath, OSRS did, and it does not have LFD, GW2 didnt have LFD when I played it atleast, but i havent played it since they launched the first expansion so at this point i might be very out of touch, but even if it has one now, the base game was out for a long time before I quit, I would not call that backtracking hard.

I could probably try and find more, but those are the ones that came to mind immediately.

Also have 0 sympathy for DPS players, it is part of the choice of gameplay, you want to play an overstacked role, and dont want to play ur tank off-specc, or a tank alt? then this is part of the package. it is fine to be selfish like that, but you have to accept the consequences of that choice as well. I deliberately play w/e is usually needed by the group for that reason, to avoid that consequence, not because I find Feral druid exciting to play in TBC. but all of that just spins around to the self entitlement of wow players, the behavior of a spoiled child if you will.

Even though I'm indifferent on the topic of the RDF I'd be extremely disappointed if Blizzard gave in to the people crying about it. Sometimes the best answer is the one that people don't want to hear.

[Fkiolaris]

also plenty of games did fine without LFD, so that statement isnt exactly true. While Runescape did not launch after wrath, OSRS did, and it does not have LFD, GW2 didnt have LFD when I played it atleast, but i havent played it since they launched the first expansion so at this point i might be very out of touch, but even if it has one now, the base game was out for a long time before I quit, I would not call that backtracking hard.

You are correct that GW2 does not have LFD, but it also has neither the trinity system nor a vertical gear progression system. It's like saying "in WoW the 3-man scenarios would be fine with normalised gear and without an LFD" which probably would be true, but that leads to your next point

Also have 0 sympathy for DPS players, it is part of the choice of gameplay, you want to play an overstacked role, and dont want to play ur tank off-specc, or a tank alt? then this is part of the package. it is fine to be selfish like that, but you have to accept the consequences of that choice as well. I deliberately play w/e is usually needed by the group for that reason, to avoid that consequence, not because I find Feral druid exciting to play in TBC. but all of that just spins around to the self entitlement of wow players, the behavior of a spoiled child if you will.

This is where you completely lost me. You are saying that , in effect, people should be having a less enjoyable experience because of what they clicked on the character creation screen. That is self-entitlement as far as I am concerned and you should remember that at the end of the day WoW is a game that people play to have fun. If they enjoy dps, then why take away a core system that was already there that was helping them have fun? And I say that as a fellow feral who is going to focus on tanking in WotLK (for nostalgia, more than anything). Also, don't forget, with WotLK being the first proper alt-friendly expansion (regardless of half the classic players having multiple alts), the person who is rolling a dps character today could very well be your raid healer or tank in 2 days' time.

So no, there are zero reasons for removing an existing feature that was making the game more enjoyable for the majority of the playerbase.

[cozzri]

"Community" is one of the biggest red herrings in WoW.

People have this romantic ideal of five strangers meeting in trade chat, embarking on this glorious journey together, and emerging as friends from the experience. It's a WoW after-school special that, simply put, NEVER HAPPENS, and never did.

The reality is that people have goals in mind, and they're getting together with other people to achieve those goals. This can be easier or harder, depending on the systems available. Making it harder doesn't suddenly melt the icy hearts of social isolates. It doesn't turn "OMG KICK THE NOOB" ragemongers into kinder, gentler people just because they now have to spend 20 minutes scouring chat and hopping on a flight path.

All this does is extend the lifetime of content by limiting how many dungeons people can do, and the only ones benefiting from this are Blizzard. The fact that the "but muh COMMUUUNIITEEEEE" white knights are flocking to support the phantasmagoric illusion of some kind of illustrious "community" that we all now get to graciously be embraced by as Blizzard "saves players from themselves" by forcing them to waste time is nothing but a cruel, twisted irony.

Blizzard created the fanaticism for gear by not balancing PvP properly; player encounters should have been normalized from the get go and just have cosmetic rewards.

The raid gear spilling over into PvP created this insane rush to get more raids, more dungeons, more gear so you don't get spanked in PvP.

Running dungeons a handful of times with friends etc to get quests done, help with attunements, farm sets, etc; it was a solid gameplay loop. But having all of this compounded with getting your ass handed to you whenever you set foot into a pvp situation has a tendency to break down the social structure into individualist competition, which ironically, led the game to be a more single player experience; elite quests and area removed, LFG so you can get in and out quick with strangers to farm currency for gear; WoE became less of a MMO over time due to shift of player focus from the experiencing the world to looking at numbers.

[Alkizon]

I'd say here absolutely the same I said in different topic:

Right, it's not that LFG itself is wrong, but design behind one, which moved at wrong direction.

- snip -

As for destruction/politeness of community, this is separate theme, and it's quite clear that LFG-tool alone is something insufficient for its destruction, and here we should first of all talk about organization of game world in general and servers in particular. But, as I already said, we can talk about last a lot and for a long time and preferably in another topic, this one is too narrow.

since it stays fully true for this one too.

[rrayy]

IMO the best fix for the whole LFD thing would be to make it on a realm per realm basis each realm has its own LFG tool. The teleport thing is a must have IMO and this kills a lot of the fun in had in wrath originally just spamming LFG on my fresh characters to get geared to raid.

Enjoy 4 hour queues with that. People aren't going to magically communicate with that restriction either.

- - - Updated - - -

Lmao you just double down with the "no you" with no further explanation.

I'll explain one more time. RDF and LFR content is so stupidly braindead that it is equivalent to just pressing a button and getting the same rewards. You can disagree all you want, but the CLASSIC community feels the same way. Period. End of discussion.

You should probably get over yourself and listen to others for a change.

Massive projection there. Not everyone on the classic community agrees with you. Decalring yourself right and then claiming they do doesn't make it so.

[Orange Joe]

Players, universally in every single feedback thread about the modern direction of the game: WoW feels like a lobby game, where is the RPG?

This guy when asked to remove one of the few RPG elements left in the game:

Going afk on flight paths is a rpg element to you?

[RoKPaNda]

forums are not a majority of the playerbase

You think the players who aren't dedicated enough to be on the forums / social media / etc are somehow in agreement with you on this issue and not on the more casual side of it? That's certainly an interesting theory.

See I don't really have a pony in this race because I main a healer so I can find a group pretty much instantly no matter what they do, but a lack of LFD isn't going to make anything better for anyone and it's going to make the experience for a pure DPS class suck massive balls. Nobody is going to unsub because they're not spending an hour of their life looking for a group, but I can definitely see people unsubbing if they have to struggle to even find a dungeon group.

[Dadwen]

You think the players who aren't dedicated enough to be on the forums / social media / etc are somehow in agreement with you on this issue and not on the more casual side of it? That's certainly an interesting theory.

See I don't really have a pony in this race because I main a healer so I can find a group pretty much instantly no matter what they do, but a lack of LFD isn't going to make anything better for anyone and it's going to make the experience for a pure DPS class suck massive balls. Nobody is going to unsub because they're not spending an hour of their life looking for a group, but I can definitely see people unsubbing if they have to struggle to even find a dungeon group.

Friend already did and with that,and I decided not to res-sub up (both were planing to play Classic LK but the server we started on went lopsided Alliance (we're horde side) and was never enough to get 5 man's together *back mid Classic BC while i was subbed watched a Healer an Tank (higher level than me) looking for a group to fill out for over 6 hours and finally gave up) *plus side world chat was quiet (once in a while someone would log on and ask if the server was dead and get a response back not if you're alliance.) but neither of us are going to pay to have all our toons moved just to be able to play normally (at that point raid were already out of the question but at least some dungeons would have been nice to look forward to and leveling different alts though them).

*funny thing is LK the (real one) was the only time I ever tanked during any expansion, my guild had raid tanks, but I started one just to run RDF's and had a blast doing it (pally tanks in LK were kinda crazy fun IMO).

*I also strongly believe people would be willing to spread out a bit more server wise if RDF was in the game.

[Relapses]

Going afk on flight paths is a rpg element to you?

I think travel, in general, is a good thing for an RPG to have. We're inundated these days with all sorts of "quick travel" conveniences in every fucking game that's released that it kind of takes you out of the game when you can just open a spell book and go anywhere instantly. People like to frame these convenience features as necessities but I personally think the lack of such features is one of the most characteristic elements in the genre and I respect when developers take a stand against the community on it.