is M+ and Tier Forge killing raid ?

[Swnem]

Well why are they unrewarding?

MAybe because you get everything from the raid easier from somewhere else?
Or What you egt doesn't even look special as you get that also from somewhere else...

No dude. Because they aren't fun for what they reward. You get 2-3 pieces per week and you kill 10 bosses. These bosses all have an amount of useless trash to go through and are long fights that require time to prepare and organize. Raids are not like this anymore on other games anymore. Only in WoW are they so inconvenient you need multiple hours to do it for little reward and where you spend so much time not in the actual boss fight. The boss fights are probably 50% of your time spent in a raid. Not to mention you don't kill every boss in your first week. There is progression with many wipes where you get nothing. It's a waste of time.

People like Mythic+ even though it rewards WORSE gear because it's not such a time waster and unfun experience. If you force people out of mythic+ and into the raid, guess what? People will leave even more cause most people just can't commit to the time sink that is raiding. Mythic+ is the only good thing about WoW. Go ahead and break it. See what happens.

[Engal]

a lot of best weapons are from raids
best trinkets are from raids (especialy this season)
highest ilvl items are from mythic raid
LOWEST ilvl from mythic raid vault is the same as HIGHEST ilvl from m+ vault

yep, totaly no incentive to raid...

best trinkets are from raids (especialy this season) => That's not true. Depend on your class, as everything else. Many of the best trinket for DH came from dungeons.
( Phial of putrefaction, for example. )

highest ilvl items are from mythic raid => You have to do a mythic raid, so have enough player dedicated and geared enough. Not everyone do mythic raid. M+ is more accessible.

Moreover, you can only have ONE chance to drop it PER WEEK.


I reiterate : raids lack incentive.

[Coldkil]

best trinkets are from raids (especialy this season) => That's not true. Depend on your class, as everything else. Many of the best trinket for DH came from dungeons.
( Phial of putrefaction, for example. )

highest ilvl items are from mythic raid => You have to do a mythic raid, so have enough player dedicated and geared enough. Not everyone do mythic raid. M+ is more accessible.

Moreover, you can only have ONE chance to drop it PER WEEK.


I reiterate : raids lack incentive.

Not really. This season raid trinkets are bis for most classes and thebalso nerfed old ones to make sure s3 stuff wouldn't just be viable.

I hope for DF that they take a different approach. Tier sets and armor in general are fine as they are, the major offenders are special weapons and trinkets = special procs.

They just need to make these procs specifically tailored for the content they drop in. Mor st oriented for raid and more aoe oriented for m+. This way your bis drops in the content you like to do and starting the other means you have a good base already and just need an an handful of pieces.

[Echeyakee]

Not really. This season raid trinkets are bis for most classes and thebalso nerfed old ones to make sure s3 stuff wouldn't just be viable.

I hope for DF that they take a different approach. Tier sets and armor in general are fine as they are, the major offenders are special weapons and trinkets = special procs.

They just need to make these procs specifically tailored for the content they drop in. Mor st oriented for raid and more aoe oriented for m+. This way your bis drops in the content you like to do and starting the other means you have a good base already and just need an an handful of pieces.

Dunno, it already feels shitty needing to farm low ilvl pvp gear cause it's much better itemized for that, I would hate to move further in to gear segregation for content type. And are you suggesting raid trinkets and procs to never give you stats? 'Cause there will always be classes that benefit more from stats in AoE, over any direct damage procs. And what about healers and tanks?

[jeezusisacasual]

Dunno, it already feels shitty needing to farm low ilvl pvp gear cause it's much better itemized for that, I would hate to move further in to gear segregation for content type. And are you suggesting raid trinkets and procs to never give you stats? 'Cause there will always be classes that benefit more from stats in AoE, over any direct damage procs. And what about healers and tanks?

I just say let raiding compete with Mythic Plus at the end of the day. It already rewards less gear per time investment ( assuming the guild is worth its salt ) and its more controlled also everyone on these forums say that Raiding is the best super awesome fun time experience that will persuade people to do it more right? Meanwhile i can take my little bite sized chunk of content and be worse off and be done with a patch after 2-3 weeks. I say that as someone who used to love raiding until the end of WoD but would rather experience more games in pick up and play sessions then long form ( months long etc ).

[Opeth69]

they just need to add either bonuses for using m+ gear in m+ or possibly set bonuses like pvp trinkets have, so if you have 2 m+ trinkets you get extra stats or a proc or something, they could do the same with weapons, procs that only work in m+

[Toby451]

Raiding is fine. The only "problem" with raiding is that mythic is too difficult for most people and their ego wont allow them to admit it. They are entitled to the best loot in the game. Simply clearing heroic raids and getting slightly lower loot is not an option.

[shyguybman]

best trinkets are from raids (especialy this season) => That's not true. Depend on your class, as everything else. Many of the best trinket for DH came from dungeons.
( Phial of putrefaction, for example. )

highest ilvl items are from mythic raid => You have to do a mythic raid, so have enough player dedicated and geared enough. Not everyone do mythic raid. M+ is more accessible.

Moreover, you can only have ONE chance to drop it PER WEEK.


I reiterate : raids lack incentive.

100% agree.

I am of the opinion that raids need more unique items. There is such little incentive to raid outside of a handful of items like a gavel.

[Opeth69]

Raiding is fine. The only "problem" with raiding is that mythic is too difficult for most people and their ego wont allow them to admit it. They are entitled to the best loot in the game. Simply clearing heroic raids and getting slightly lower loot is not an option.

It's not just the difficulty it's the insane time commitment, you are asking players to permanently give up 2-3 evenings a week forever if you want to raid mythic at any reasonable rate. That was maybe okay 10 years ago but gaming and gamers are different now, most don't have the time to dedicate 12+ hours a week on an inflexible fixed schedule. if they maybe made the barrier to entry much easier, make raids 10m with quicker bosses with way less trash this would add so much more flexibility to raiding. I think a lot of players have time to put into raiding but it's very difficult to essentially book large slots of your evenings out to a game, it's only going to get worse in DF

[Soikona]

It's not just the difficulty it's the insane time commitment, you are asking players to permanently give up 2-3 evenings a week forever if you want to raid mythic at any reasonable rate. That was maybe okay 10 years ago but gaming and gamers are different now, most don't have the time to dedicate 12+ hours a week on an inflexible fixed schedule. if they maybe made the barrier to entry much easier, make raids 10m with quicker bosses with way less trash this would add so much more flexibility to raiding. I think a lot of players have time to put into raiding but it's very difficult to essentially book large slots of your evenings out to a game, it's only going to get worse in DF

So basically the FF14 approach?

[Opeth69]

So basically the FF14 approach?

Kind of yeah, FFXIV raiding is massively more approachable with a way smaller barrier to entry. Wow has much larger more interesting raids but the boss fights aren't necessarily more fun, i think they need a balance between the two. I would love to see mythic work like ultimate in FFXIV make it 10 man super challenging and drop amazing transmog gear, think MoP challenge mode gear which was very popular despite giving nothing but transmog only. I worry that another expansion where mythic drops the best weapons/trinkets for non raid content is just going to cause more players to leave, trying to keep a mythic guild together is becoming unsustainable

[Sinx]

The only fair way to solve this is to employ the pvp solution. Give raid gear +10 ilvls in raids, and m+ gear +10 ilvls in m+. Forcing people to do content they don't like, just to be able to be competetive in the content they actually want to do is what's been killing this game for years now. Multiple expansions. Either it's endless torghast grinding, getting bis heart of azeroth stuff for raiding/m+ that's locked behind pvp, or it's m+ players or pvp'ers being forced to do mythic raids because they put some retardedly op items in there. All you achieve is pissing people off and chasing them away from the game. Let people progress on the end game content they prefer, without being forced to spend countless hours doing things they dislike.

[Opeth69]

The only fair way to solve this is to employ the pvp solution. Give raid gear +10 ilvls in raids, and m+ gear +10 ilvls in m+. Forcing people to do content they don't like, just to be able to be competetive in the content they actually want to do is what's been killing this game for years now. Multiple expansions. Either it's endless torghast grinding, getting bis heart of azeroth stuff for raiding/m+ that's locked behind pvp, or it's m+ players or pvp'ers being forced to do mythic raids because they put some retardedly op items in there. All you achieve is pissing people off and chasing them away from the game.

This would be the easiest way to do it tbh, I hate that m+ gear isnt best for m+ it makes no sense form a design perspective, they solved this problem in pvp to some extent, they also need to let m+ players get tier gear at same rate as raiders too

[jeezusisacasual]

This would be the easiest way to do it tbh, I hate that m+ gear isnt best for m+ it makes no sense form a design perspective, they solved this problem in pvp to some extent, they also need to let m+ players get tier gear at same rate as raiders too

As someone who openly dislikes like scheduling time around raiding anymore the only reason why it is not open earlier is that it would destroy raiding for everyone below mythic and even those guilds that get half way into it. But i am all for having raiding compete with mythic plus in terms of playability and gage the numbers based on that. They fostered this idea that unless your first your last or unless your X class your wrong mentality for so long they have to live with it and if this is a more efficant way of getting tier sets that the community deems it so then it is just that.

[Sinx]

Well, the alternative to splitting the loot (ie something similar as has been done with pvp) is to scale m+ differently. It's kind of silly the way it is now, where all scaling stops at +15, which is fairly trivial. So one option could be to increase the valor upgrade ranks, so you could for example upgrade EoD to 304 (using current ilvls to illustrate) with valor if you have an m+ rating equal to roughly have done all keys on +20. With valor requirements (and the weekly caps), you can also control progression to a point where it lines up with gear aquisition in the raid. And then maybe have 311 weapons at +25. Going much higher than that is probably not an option, as you'll quickly start to exclude certain classes and specs at that point, or require more specific setups (ie the strongest m+ specs).

The exact ratings can ofc be debated, but the main point is that M+ gear scaling needs to be looked at, and capping it at +15 keys is outdated at this point. And Blizzard need to put more effort into m+ balancing, cause it's gotten way out of hand with several specs in shadowlands.

[MrFrag]

M+ and Tier Forge is not the problem. Raiding was fun but you require 20 man + extra players and you have to schedule raid times. Game is almost 20 years old so average player age range should be around 25-40. Time is number 1 problem. 20 man is 2nd problem. 3th is raid difficulties are getting harder. 4th is new intruduced raids must be meaningful. 5th is people find it hard to tolerate Raid Leaders/Officers . Ofcourse you can add more or discard some of those facts but those are the main issues from my perspective.

[Demeia]

If mythic raids were tuned as easy as a +15 mythic raiding would be bazonkers popular. All expansion its tuned to be ball bustingly hard so of course people are noping out for M+.

I honestly assumed this was Ion's plan. We used to have a lot of built in nerfs for raids--escalating trinkets and such--but not any more. Nope. Worse, they assume everyone is gearing from Mythic plus so they don't need to nerf anything: people are in mythic gear! Except a lot of heroic raiders hate pugging mythic plus and they are in, well, heroic gear.

But yes my reason for leaving was every single fucking fight is so incredibly technical. And they won't give mythic loot in raid loot boxes the way the do in mythic plus lootboxes. Which makes sense since we have mythic raiding. But mythic plus is dumbly easier than mythic raiding (at least after the first week or two). And they get mythic loot. The whole system rewards you for doing mythic plus and not for heroic raiding.