SL reminds me MOP

[Lochton]

Yeah, that's why mobile games rise and MMOs drop.

Don't get me wrong. I don't ask to turn Wow into 3-in-a-row. Those are extreme cases, that are used as example to show, that even squirrel kissers aren't the most casual players in this world. I just try to show, why some players feel uncomfortable in games, that have too long uninterruptible playing sessions.

Life of an MMORPG? The world doesn't revolve around the player like in a single-player game, the world operates on its own, and if you step out of the picture, you'll never return to the right moment again. I mean, that is where the joke comes in about not being able to pause a raid. If people do not feel comfortable with a progressing world of developing content and story outside of their grasp, then they need to step back and do something else, for such a genre is not for them. We cannot, nor should we, flatten the line between the game's build-up and deployment. People are playing for the experience of the raid, or PvP, or story, and no matter what, the chapter has to be changed now and then.

World of Warcraft has been on a steady path for over a decade, there are bumps of course, but in the end, that path has provided more and more availability to more and more players - and with the unlocking of Zerith Mortis and Season 4 (Instead of a drought), the world players have now been given the option to actually achieve a high enough item level without having to do anything rated, ranked, or organized, to then achieve some more difficult feats, or just belittle the land without issue. And as we now actually have an active window at the end of the expansion instead of a drought, we can see more people taking this time to achieve more in their play, in either rated, ranked, or organized play - and then some have stepped a little away from that to do the minor things like world achievements and Pet Battles. We have time still, we aren't dumped at the end of the last patch like they used to do, we have plenty of time to collect, and we've had plenty of time to prepare.

I honestly do not get your complaints because what you list as complaints are all down to the human decision, not the developers, the player. You made the choice to not play the progressing content, so now you experience an overflow, you have everything available except you now need to get some currency, which as well has been made seriously easy. And even now, I can see on your signature that you are against content that offers a challenge, even a minor thing like keeping the skies alive and making a hostile zone seem hostile. I have played over 25 MMORPGs, and I shake my head. I see people complain that it is too social, I see people complain that it isn't social enough, I see people complain that the world is too big, and others too small, I see people moan that they don't see people everywhere, yet people complain about seeing too many people as well - and now we're at a chapter where I see you, complain about progressing systems and worlds which is part of the aspect of an MMORPG.

May I suggest Minecraft or some vast RPG where you may freely freeze and pause when needed and return to where you left off without issue? It'll be a little empty but there's going to be room for you.

[8bithamster]

1. Dont know about recipe vendors. Probably added in latest season. Still reqs currency grind.

2. You dont buy them for nothing. And still... added in last season.

3. That IS games fault that you have to GRIND something just to unlock abilities.


TY God they removed "borrowed power" systems in DF.

So.. they don't exist because you don't know about them. Feel free to admit you were wrong for once, it's really helpful
As for the rep grind, you get to pick between: Flux, Anima or Torghast. If that's to much effort for you, MMO's in general aren't for you.

They are literally bought with gold.. 500 gold to be exact. If you feel the need to complain about farming 500G, MMO's just aren't for you

Legendaries do not have abilities, they never have outside very very specific examples (which were raid drops). Again MMO's might not be for you



You can whinge, cry, complain and shout at SL all you want, but ZM removed a shitton of grind exactly for people like you. The fact that it's yet again not enough for you, that you want to demand even easier gaining of items really shows that MMO's in general just might not be your cup of tea anymore.

[WowIsDead64]

Life of an MMORPG? The world doesn't revolve around the player like in a single-player game, the world operates on its own, and if you step out of the picture, you'll never return to the right moment again. I mean, that is where the joke comes in about not being able to pause a raid. If people do not feel comfortable with a progressing world of developing content and story outside of their grasp, then they need to step back and do something else, for such a genre is not for them. We cannot, nor should we, flatten the line between the game's build-up and deployment. People are playing for the experience of the raid, or PvP, or story, and no matter what, the chapter has to be changed now and then.

World of Warcraft has been on a steady path for over a decade, there are bumps of course, but in the end, that path has provided more and more availability to more and more players - and with the unlocking of Zerith Mortis and Season 4 (Instead of a drought), the world players have now been given the option to actually achieve a high enough item level without having to do anything rated, ranked, or organized, to then achieve some more difficult feats, or just belittle the land without issue. And as we now actually have an active window at the end of the expansion instead of a drought, we can see more people taking this time to achieve more in their play, in either rated, ranked, or organized play - and then some have stepped a little away from that to do the minor things like world achievements and Pet Battles. We have time still, we aren't dumped at the end of the last patch like they used to do, we have plenty of time to collect, and we've had plenty of time to prepare.

I honestly do not get your complaints because what you list as complaints are all down to the human decision, not the developers, the player. You made the choice to not play the progressing content, so now you experience an overflow, you have everything available except you now need to get some currency, which as well has been made seriously easy. And even now, I can see on your signature that you are against content that offers a challenge, even a minor thing like keeping the skies alive and making a hostile zone seem hostile. I have played over 25 MMORPGs, and I shake my head. I see people complain that it is too social, I see people complain that it isn't social enough, I see people complain that the world is too big, and others too small, I see people moan that they don't see people everywhere, yet people complain about seeing too many people as well - and now we're at a chapter where I see you, complain about progressing systems and worlds which is part of the aspect of an MMORPG.

May I suggest Minecraft or some vast RPG where you may freely freeze and pause when needed and return to where you left off without issue? It'll be a little empty but there's going to be room for you.

Nobody says, that dungeons, raids or PVP should be removed from game. It's all started from suggesting them to casual players as "easier" replacement for solo open world content. Just don't do it. Because casual players don't like them for reason. Because they play for 1 hour a day and having to wait in queue for half of this time and being unable to quit such content at any moment, if something would go wrong, cuz otherwise they would simply lose this hour of their play time - isn't good idea for them.

And I've said it many times already. Each content has it's value. Reward should be worth effort, that is put into getting it. It's called reward/effort ratio. Would you kill mythic raid boss for 10 copper? No. Problem is - devs try to make game development cheaper. They create extra virtual content via stretching their rewards. And it works to some extent. Problems start, when devs start to overstretch their content. It was excusable back in old times. But it no longer is.

And, you know, "Devs set their price - you just buy it or not" doesn't work here. It's open market. If nobody buys content for their price - they should lower it. And obviously not to barely bearable value. There should be some room for buying something else. Yeah, overpricing things at release and offering discounts then - is common practice. This strategy makes sure, that goods are sold at maximum possible prices. Problem is - it works for getting maximum profit from limited amount of goods only. We are in different situation. Devs' goal - isn't to squeeze maximum play time from players, i.e. so called "involvement". Their goal - to have maximum amount of paying customers. And if they have 10M potential players at release, lose 90% of them month after that only to start retaining them at the end of xpack, when it's way too late to start playing - then, I guess, they do something wrong.

They could be right in one case only - if they would want to switch to semi-F2P/P2W "Punish players to force microtransactions" model. I.e. if "M+ boosts to overcome artificial obstacles" microtransactions from whales would bring them more money, than sub fees. May be it's already happened. But I don't think, that we should play such game.

If devs want to sell content to harcore players at maximum possible price - they should provide some alternatives to casual players then.

[Lolites]

"Normal" people play games in a morning before going to work, in transport, during breaks.

no, thats what addicted gamblers do...

"normal" players play after work, or if they start work after lunch then before work, or on their days off, if you start work in the morning and try to squeeze half an hour of play before that you have some serious issue... also, "normal" person who have only little time to play usualy wont play MMORPG, a genre that is literaly centered and build upon wasting hundreds of hours...

ofc mobile gamers work like that, but comparing mmo-rpg and mobile game, which is not meant to have progress but to kill the time is beyond foolish... its like comparing reading Dostojevskij and tabloids ffs...
(not to mention its not much of a stretch saying you are addict if you play mobile games in every free minute)

[Dioporco]

Because it's end of xpack, it's last patch, we are just a few months away from release of new xpack and...major xpack's flaw still isn't fixed - overtuned mechanic still isn't nerfed enough to be bearable. I talk about Anima grind. Please note. I don't want to do 9.0 or 9.1 content to grind it, because this content is obsoleted. So, don't suggest it. I also don't want to do any hardcore content, such as M+ and raids. So don't suggest them too.

I would want to do following things:
1) Try 9.0 Covenant sanctums content
2) Buy all Covenant transmogs
3) Play my "main" for ilvl progression (i.e. cyphers grind)
4) Get class tier sets (i.e. relics grind)
5) Level new alts (I doubt, that I should do it right now due to unknown state of race/class combinations and free race changes in DF).
6) Play WotLK classic
7) At the end, play some other game just to change scenery

But... I have to grind Anima non-stop. Just because ZM gives amount of Anima, that is barely enough to run mission table. ZM gives about 1-1.5k a day, while mission table requires around 500-600 twice a day. So, I can't collect any spare Anima to invest it's into something else of just skip 1-2 days and do something else. And I'm not ready to abandon mission table. It's great content for casual player. Long-term progression, that is almost passive.

As I already said back at SL's release, that Anima income should have been buffed by 400% in order for it's grind to be bearable. Why can't we do it even at the end of xpack, when amount of "content" no longer matters?

You are fucking delusional if yo uthink SL reminds you of MOP also you probably didnt even play MOP

[Accendor]

You don't count queues and they're the biggest penalty here. And "true" casual player - is player, who can hit quit button at any moment without any consequences.

Yeah and for THAT kind of player there are LOTS of other content, so I still don't get the point, I'm sorry.

[flaggel]

Don't you dare compare MOP to SL. If anything, SL reminds me of WOD. MOP was actually fun.

[FelPlague]

Yeah and for THAT kind of player there are LOTS of other content, so I still don't get the point, I'm sorry.

bro thinks normal people piss their pants at their desk instead of risking missing their queue.
I would not bother.

[WowIsDead64]

Don't you dare compare MOP to SL. If anything, SL reminds me of WOD. MOP was actually fun.

Are you sure?

MOP patch history:
1) 5.0 - FOMO rep grinds that weren't fully fixed, just nerfed by 50%
2) 5.1 - more FOMO rep grinds
3) 5.2 - dopamine isle
4) 5.3 - dopamine isle 2.0

Compare it with SL now:
1) 9.0 - FOMO anima grinds, that aren't fully fixed, just nerfed by 50%
2) 9.1 - dopamine isle
3) 9.2 - dopamine isle 2.0

[Calfredd]

Are you sure?

You don't know what FOMO is and keep trying to make up new definitions for it so I'm going to go ahead and guess that yes, they're sure.

[Lochton]

Nobody says, that dungeons, raids or PVP should be removed from game. It's all started from suggesting them to casual players as "easier" replacement for solo open world content.

But it is easier? Dungeons, Heroics, LFR, Random Battleground is easier than rated, ranked, and organized? And of course, should have better reward than world content until later where mostly, it is only LFR's item level that progresses.

Just don't do it.

Well, that is the player's choice? People can give advice but in the end, it is the player's choice.

Because casual players don't like them for reason.

Well, we don't know the many reasons, trust me, there are a lot of reasons, not just queues.

Because they play for 1 hour a day and having to wait in queue for half of this time

Eh, a casual player can play more, and doesn't have to wait half an hour in a queue, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, all down to classes, times of the day, etc.

and being unable to quit such content at any moment, if something would go wrong, cuz otherwise they would simply lose this hour of their play time - isn't good idea for them.

*sighs* Right, this is where the wall comes between online MMORPG and a single-player RPG. If you need something that you can up and quit at anytime, then maybe you should play something else? Especially if like you, leaving for the majority of the content. But in short, you can quit at any time you want, or do something else if you are short on time. Even a hardcore player might not queue for 30+ mins if they have to leave in 50+ mins.

And I've said it many times already. Each content has it's value. Reward should be worth effort, that is put into getting it. It's called reward/effort ratio.

And the reward is fitting the effort, why else would you go for it? You don't go killing Arthas 300+ times for nothing, you want something from him, and you have a goal, and some things aren't meant to become more common as it ages. If the reward isn't worth the work, why go for it in the first place? You don't have to get everything!

Would you kill mythic raid boss for 10 copper? No.

Nor are anyone doing such? They go kill such, old or new, because they are aiming for something? They have a goal.

Problem is - devs try to make game development cheaper. They create extra virtual content via stretching their rewards. And it works to some extent. Problems start, when devs start to overstretch their content. It was excusable back in old times. But it no longer is.

But your "overstretching" argument only proves that you hold no intention of actually even covering the basic hurdles made by developers. We hardly see quests nowadays like we used to in the past, Vanilla, TBC, and Wrath had tons of kill quests - heck, ALL MMORPGs have huge slices of "kill X", "Now go collect Z", and "Oh, bring me Y" - that is what quests are, and more are needed because they are added to fill out the world, and keep people on the adventure instead of just sprinting through the main story (like a certain other game) and ignoring most other work.

And, you know, "Devs set their price - you just buy it or not" doesn't work here. It's open market. If nobody buys content for their price - they should lower it.

Yes, an open market, meaning, they set the price as they wish, and accordingly to their production, support, and upkeep - it is the easiest answer here, if you do not wish to pay the price, don't play until it is worth the cost you wish to put in. Simple. That is what the open market is.

And obviously not to barely bearable value.

That is of course your opinion, everyone sees value in different things. You see less value because you want a single-player game.

There should be some room for buying something else.

No thanks. It is the game + subscription, the rest should be able to be ignored, forgotten, and rotting. If anything, can I introduce you to freezing your account and play 1-20 for free in all content except the newest? Might be ultra-casual enough for you.

Yeah, overpricing things at release and offering discounts then - is common practice.

Well, yeah? You don't launch your newest hottest product at a lower price from the start? Of course not.

This strategy makes sure, that goods are sold at maximum possible prices. Problem is - it works for getting maximum profit from limited amount of goods only.

This strategy makes sure to run a business with the aim of a profit for a calculated price of their product? You are saying it like it is new, yet all businesses do this.

We are in different situation. Devs' goal - isn't to squeeze maximum play time from players, i.e. so called "involvement". Their goal - to have maximum amount of paying customers. And if they have 10M potential players at release, lose 90% of them month after that only to start retaining them at the end of xpack, when it's way too late to start playing - then, I guess, they do something wrong.

A company is there to make a product that creates interest in using, and then hopefully have players remain if they enjoy the theme. As well, at the end of the expansion, all content can be done, and thanks to the new attempt with Season 4, people don't arrive at a drought but actual people doing content still for their own reasons.

They could be right in one case only - if they would want to switch to semi-F2P/P2W "Punish players to force microtransactions" model. I.e. if "M+ boosts to overcome artificial obstacles" microtransactions from whales would bring them more money, than sub fees. May be it's already happened. But I don't think, that we should play such game.

Why would they do this? They don't need to? There's been no need to, and the market that is already toxic, filled with fraud, and hostile, are player operated in the first place, and Blizzard would rather snuff them with a pillow than give them more leeway (see all restrictions made against boosters which can be supported when actions taken).

If devs want to sell content to harcore players at maximum possible price - they should provide some alternatives to casual players then.

Dude, the game overall, has become less hardcore. The high-end raiders are a minority in WoW. The only thing I agree with, is there need more solo alternatives, does that mean ultra-casual, no, no thanks? I don't mind Torghast, just, make it nicer. I don't mind Mage Tower. I didn't mind expeditions. I didn't mind scenarios. I would welcome some solo-operated class/profession-oriented dungeons with rewards less than normal but more than world content.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you sure?

MOP patch history:
1) 5.0 - FOMO rep grinds that weren't fully fixed, just nerfed by 50%
2) 5.1 - more FOMO rep grinds
3) 5.2 - dopamine isle
4) 5.3 - dopamine isle 2.0

Compare it with SL now:
1) 9.0 - FOMO anima grinds, that aren't fully fixed, just nerfed by 50%
2) 9.1 - dopamine isle
3) 9.2 - dopamine isle 2.0

I still can't see how you make reputations to be "FOMO", you can obtain the rewards at your own speed. The rewards don't go away. Even when item levels are low, they are still cosmetics. They can sell toys. They can sell mounts and pets.

As for your buzzword attempt with "dopamine isle", that is just you generally complaining about content offering rewards for gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

bro thinks normal people piss their pants at their desk instead of risking missing their queue.
I would not bother.

I have luckily only known one insane person who played the bottle game during a raid, else, we have all been adult enough to remember to call for a bio-break and whatnot. He was though, an ultra-hardcore, as in, raiding with three different raid groups on three different characters.

[WowIsDead64]

I still can't see how you make reputations to be "FOMO", you can obtain the rewards at your own speed. The rewards don't go away. Even when item levels are low, they are still cosmetics. They can sell toys. They can sell mounts and pets.

As for your buzzword attempt with "dopamine isle", that is just you generally complaining about content offering rewards for gameplay.

FOMO - is literally fear of missing out. It isn't specified, what is missed, so I can use it for what ever missed thing I want. In my case time-gated CDs are missed. It's about fear of playing for 1 year only to realize, that there is some time-gated item in this game, that requires exactly 1 year to grind, so now another year of grinding is required, while one could spend previous year and already get it, i.e. 1 year of time is just wasted. Or missed.

What dopamine isles are? Do you understand, that any RNG spawn loot-box-like mechanic is based on Skinner's chamber dopamine addiction? You see RNG spawn on a map, like yellow dot, chest, star, skull. Your dopamine addiction is triggered. You stop doing your current business and rush to it as fast as possible. Why? You can't even explain why. Dopamine addiction rewards you for doing it.

[Floreon]

FOMO - is literally fear of missing out. It isn't specified, what is missed, so I can use it for what ever missed thing I want. In my case time-gated CDs are missed. It's about fear of playing for 1 year only to realize, that there is some time-gated item in this game, that requires exactly 1 year to grind, so now another year of grinding is required, while one could spend previous year and already get it, i.e. 1 year of time is just wasted. Or missed.

This 1 year example only makes any sense at all in a world where reps are infinitely grindable for years on end, which they absolutely are not. It's not FOMO for things to require time investments. FOMO very specifically requires that something is available for a very finite period of time. To form your argument for you because you very clearly can't do so yourself, you could make a case for MoP having one (1) FOMO rep grind in the form of Black Prince rep for legendary cloak. How you think literally any other 'grind' in MoP had any amount of FOMO as a driving factor is absolute drivel.

As a full list of every item in MoP you could apply FOMO as an argument to and make even close to a valid point:
Challenge Mode Transmogs
Legendary Cloak
AOTC/CE Achievements
Garrosh Heirlooms
Elite PvP transmogs (including tabards)
Gladiator mounts

How you're trying to throw things into this list like the 5.1 reps I actually can't even begin to conceptualize.

What dopamine isles are? Do you understand, that any RNG spawn loot-box-like mechanic is based on Skinner's chamber dopamine addiction? You see RNG spawn on a map, like yellow dot, chest, star, skull. Your dopamine addiction is triggered. You stop doing your current business and rush to it as fast as possible. Why? You can't even explain why. Dopamine addiction rewards you for doing it.

Yeah you're basically describing WoW's casual content. Your very confusing signature link even seems to imply you WANT short term quick reward content like going out and killing rares and then just abandoning the character after a week. The actual only difference between exactly what your "Solution!!!" 'graph' asks for and how ZM works is you'd like account wide cypher unlocks, which seems to be exactly what Blizzard has implied they want to do in Dragonflight.

All in all, if you're someone whose relationship with MMOs consists of pissing in your chair and hiding it from your boss because you need to get in just one more queue and you want the devs to cater to you as a 'casual', you might need to just not play MMOs.


Edit: Your description of FOMO is literally just hindsight. It can't be FOMO if it only exists in hindsight. It's only FOMO if it's a driving factor in the right now. Saying you wish you had done something after the fact is not FOMO.

[WowIsDead64]

This 1 year example only makes any sense at all in a world where reps are infinitely grindable for years on end, which they absolutely are not. It's not FOMO for things to require time investments. FOMO very specifically requires that something is available for a very finite period of time. To form your argument for you because you very clearly can't do so yourself, you could make a case for MoP having one (1) FOMO rep grind in the form of Black Prince rep for legendary cloak. How you think literally any other 'grind' in MoP had any amount of FOMO as a driving factor is absolute drivel.

As a full list of every item in MoP you could apply FOMO as an argument to and make even close to a valid point:
Challenge Mode Transmogs
Legendary Cloak
AOTC/CE Achievements
Garrosh Heirlooms
Elite PvP transmogs (including tabards)
Gladiator mounts

How you're trying to throw things into this list like the 5.1 reps I actually can't even begin to conceptualize.



Yeah you're basically describing WoW's casual content. Your very confusing signature link even seems to imply you WANT short term quick reward content like going out and killing rares and then just abandoning the character after a week. The actual only difference between exactly what your "Solution!!!" 'graph' asks for and how ZM works is you'd like account wide cypher unlocks, which seems to be exactly what Blizzard has implied they want to do in Dragonflight.

All in all, if you're someone whose relationship with MMOs consists of pissing in your chair and hiding it from your boss because you need to get in just one more queue and you want the devs to cater to you as a 'casual', you might need to just not play MMOs.


Edit: Your description of FOMO is literally just hindsight. It can't be FOMO if it only exists in hindsight. It's only FOMO if it's a driving factor in the right now. Saying you wish you had done something after the fact is not FOMO.

Time-gated CD exists for a very finite time period. Daily CD exists for one day. Weekly CD exists for week. They aren't cumulative, you know, despite of players asking for cumulative CDs since MOP.

What about dopamine isles, I don't even know, if this game will survive another xpack, if Blizzard will try to use this design again. I sit in ZM for 2 hours and can't get last 11% of weekly quests, because nothing spawns and even if something spawns - it always spawns on other side of map, so I can't get to it in time. P.S. It's not because I want to get 100% within one day - only dailies and WQs completed. Just bad respawn when it's not rush hour.

[Floreon]

Time-gated CD exists for a very finite time period. Daily CD exists for one day. Weekly CD exists for week. They aren't cumulative, you know, despite of players asking for cumulative CDs since MOP.

You can do the time-gated CD the next day. It's available every day.

I refuse to believe you're not trolling.

[WowIsDead64]

You can do the time-gated CD the next day. It's available every day.

I refuse to believe you're not trolling.

Content patch has limited amount of daily CDs, xpack has limited amount of daily CDs, MY LIFE has limited amount of daily CDs. And at the end...month of sub fee has limited amount of daily CDs. Missed daily CD can never be returned back.

[Aerwydd]

I could write a detailed response but after reading through the whole thread I think the obvious answer is this game simply isn't for you, go find something else to get your dopamine fix. You eliminated some of the best sources for the resources you claim to be starved of and that is entirely a choice.

[Tekko]

My head hurts after reading your post.

[Aucald]

This thread appears to have run its course and has devolved into accusations and one-sided arguments. Closing this.