Is it time to scrap the Alliance and Horde?

[Varodoc]

Blaming Rastakhan for what Zul did during Cata/MoP is like blaming Terenas II for the Scourge.

Which is something that Horde players online also do and even blame him for Sylvanas getting killed by Arthas and then nuking Teldrassil. I once saw a Horde player who unironically, genuinely, with a straight face blamed Terenas for the Burning of Teldrassil and said that Terenas was responsible for the Burning of Teldrassil. So your attempt at a "gotcha!" moment failed.

Aside from that, no, they are not the same situation at all. Considering how Zul was Rastakhan's direct subordinate and council advisor, while the leaders of the Scourge were not, actually, Terenas' subordinates. Ner'zhul was an orc, Mal'ganis was a Nathrezim, and Kel'thuzad was a citizen of Dalaran.

There's also the fact that, unlike Rastakhan, Terenas was growing quite senile and weak, this is Canonically acknowledged in-universe by Salramm the Fleshcrafter, a necromancer who took part in the Culling of Stratholme:

[Talking to Arthas] Go sniff somewhere else pup. You'd best crawl back to your senile father and await the end of your reign

So, unlike Rastakhan, and in his defence, Terenas had grown quite senile by the time of the Scourge (due to having ruled for so long for a human), so understandably he wasn't quick to react against the Scourge. He also had an entire orcish uprising to deal with in the south as all the internment camps were being taken over by the rebels.

And there's also the fact, you know, that even after hearing that Zul declared war on the rest of the world, Rastakhan still kept him around as his chief advisor in his royal council.

Also worth noting that the Alliance and Horde fought off the Zandalar together in both expansions. You can't call yourself peaceful and just when fucking Sylvanas takes a more diplomatic approach than you do.

The irony, when Sylvanas had committed genocide 10 minutes earlier.

And following your logic, you can make the same argument with the Dark Irons. Both factions fought them in the past, but only the Alliance confronted them with a more diplomatic approach.

he PCs consult with sane leaders and individuals of the faction, observe just how far the warchief is willing to go, and take part in an uprising to be rid of him/her when it becomes certain they can't be redeemed

After said leader already threw them under the bus, in the case of Garrosh (when he tried to have the PC and Vol'jin assassinated in that cave) and potentially never in the case of the Loyalist PC, when it comes to Sylvanas.

'look Nazmir's a bit misty, let's throw the entirety of our armed forces at it and leave our home base completely unprotected!'.

What exactly is this referring to? The Alliance suicide mission to Nazmir? Yes, Rastakhan was foolish to fall for that, which once again makes me wonder why anyone would mourn him. He literally didn't accomplish anything of note for Zandalar in the short time we had with him in-game.

[Caiphon]

Which is something that Horde players online also do and even blame him for Sylvanas getting killed by Arthas and then nuking Teldrassil. I once saw a Horde player who unironically, genuinely, with a straight face blamed Terenas for the Burning of Teldrassil and said that Terenas was responsible for the Burning of Teldrassil. So your attempt at a "gotcha!" moment failed.

Aside from that, no, they are not the same situation at all. Considering how Zul was Rastakhan's direct subordinate and council advisor, while the leaders of the Scourge were not, actually, Terenas' subordinates. Ner'zhul was an orc, Mal'ganis was a Nathrezim, and Kel'thuzad was a citizen of Dalaran.

There's also the fact that, unlike Rastakhan, Terenas was growing quite senile and weak, this is Canonically acknowledged in-universe by Salramm the Fleshcrafter, a necromancer who took part in the Culling of Stratholme:



So, unlike Rastakhan, and in his defence, Terenas had grown quite senile by the time of the Scourge (due to having ruled for so long and being old himself), so understandably he had to delegate most ruling matters to his council and to Uther.

The Lich King was literally Terenas II's heir and eldest son, and he was instrumental in the Scourge's war efforts even before becoming the Lich King. Arthas was also a paladin under the authority of Terenas (and therefore a direct subordinate, as Arthas demonstrated against Uther in Stratholme) so I'd say their relationship is a tad bit closer than that of Rastakhan and Zul. Terenas was senile and Rastakhan was stupid. Neither can be held truly responsible for what their subordinates went on to do.

I won't bother with the passive aggressive part of the post as 'the Horde player you once saw' means nothing in this conversation. 'Some random dude said so' is hardly an argument.

And following your logic, you can make the same argument with the Dark Irons. Both factions fought them in the past, but only the Alliance confronted them with a more diplomatic approach.

These really aren't parellels when the leader of the Dark Irons literally became one of Ironforge's leaders way back in Cataclysm. Moira was always inclined to side with the Alliance and the Horde really didn't have much of an opportunity to establish relations, and the 'other' Dark Irons were mostly with the Twilight's Hammer who don't do negotiations to begin with.

After said leader already threw them under the bus, in the case of Garrosh (when he tried to have the PC and Vol'jin assassinated in that cave) and potentially never in the case of the Loyalist PC, when it comes to Sylvanas.

Garrosh's assassination attempt was fairly difficult to anticipate, as he had generally been quite satisfied with the PC's performance up to that point. Loyalists PCs did somewhat idiotically follow Sylvanas until she literally screamed 'The Horde is Nothing!!' but in this case the player has a choice, and so is being dense on purpose for whatever sort of roleplay they're shooting for.

What exactly is this referring to? The Alliance suicide mission to Nazmir? Yes, Rastakhan was foolish to fall for that, which once again makes me wonder why anyone would mourn him. He literally didn't accomplish anything of note for Zandalar in the short time we had with him in-game.

Yes the suicide mission. While Rastakhan does order his people to neutralise the threat in Nazmir it's Talanji and the PC that blindly follow Telaamon around like an overly excited puppy with the entire Zandalari army behind them. Why not just let Talanji be the dumbass and have the PCs try but fail to hold the line in Zuldazar? It's like having the Alliance PC drag the Sentinel army in a fool's errand so Sylvanas can burn Teldrassil down. Why can't the PC take on the damage control role like in From the Ashes?

[Varodoc]

The Lich King was literally Terenas II's heir and eldest son, and

And Terenas indeed tried to act once he realized the situation was getting out of control. He and Uther had the expedition north recalled back to Lordaeron. And Arthas' men, by royal decree, were indeed getting ready to go back home. Until Arthas did the unthinkable: recruiting mercenary mongrels, burning the ships, and forcing his men to stay in Northrend. Which is something that no one could have foreseen.

Arthas was also a paladin under the authority of Terenas

Of Uther*

The leader of the Silver Hand was Uther, not Terenas, and Uther indeed tells Arthas that he is his superior as a paladin. After which, he convinced Terenas to recall the expedition back to Lordaeron and stop Arthas' foolish quest for revenge.

Terenas was the King of Lordaeron, but the Silver Hand do not serve Lordaeron, they serve the Church of the Holy Light. Which, as we know, is an international organization like our irl Church. It does not serve the crown of Lordaeron.

Neither can be held truly responsible for what their subordinates went on to do.

Rastakhan is responsible for giving a dangerous fanatic the ships he needed to make his dream a reality just because he was tired of listening to his prophetic ramblings. He is also responsible for not punishing Zul for staining Zandalari reputation worldwide, for instance by kicking him out of the Zanchuli Council.

Terenas and Uther are only responsible of one thing: they could not foresee that Arthas would be so consumed by vengeance, that he would burn his own ships and force the men to stay home.

Meanwhile, Rastakhan could have foreseen that the Alliance, you know, would get angry that the Zandalari suddenly attacked them and even threatened to march on Ironforge, a key Alliance capital city.

I don't even know why you are defending Rastakhan when you just acknowledged that he was an idiot.

I won't bother with the passive aggressive part of the post as 'the Horde player you once saw' means nothing in this conversation. 'Some random dude said so' is hardly an argument.

Your point:

Blaming Rastakhan is as foolish as blaming Terenas, so don't blame him.

My point:

People actually blame Terenas online so your gotcha attempt failed.

Pretty straightforward.

[Caiphon]

And Terenas indeed tried to act once he realized the situation was getting out of control. He and Uther had the expedition north recalled back to Lordaeron. And Arthas' men, by royal decree, were indeed getting ready to go back home. Until Arthas did the unthinkable: recruiting mercenary mongrels, burning the ships, and forcing his men to stay in Northrend. Which is something that no one could have foreseen.



Of Uther*

The leader of the Silver Hand was Uther, not Terenas, and Uther indeed tells Arthas that he is his superior as a paladin. After which, he convinced Terenas to recall the expedition back to Lordaeron and stop Arthas' foolish quest for revenge.

Terenas was the King of Lordaeron, but the Silver Hand do not serve Lordaeron, they serve the Church of the Holy Light. Which, as we know, is an international organization like our irl Church. It does not serve the crown of Lordaeron.




Rastakhan is responsible for giving a dangerous fanatic the ships he needed to make his dream a reality just because he was tired of listening to his prophetic ramblings. He is also responsible for not punishing Zul for staining Zandalari reputation worldwide, for instance by kicking him out of the Zanchuli Council.

Terenas and Uther are only responsible of one thing: they could not foresee that Arthas would be so consumed by vengeance, that he would burn his own ships and force the men to stay home.

Meanwhile, Rastakhan could have foreseen that the Alliance, you know, would get angry that the Zandalari suddenly attacked them and even threatened to march on Ironforge, a key Alliance capital city.

I don't even know why you are defending Rastakhan when you just acknowledged that he was an idiot.



Your point:

Blaming Rastakhan is as foolish as blaming Terenas, so don't blame him.

My point:

People actually blame Terenas online so your gotcha attempt failed.

Pretty straightforward.

Uther makes it pretty clear that if Arthas was king he would have had the authority to order Uther to purge the city (hence the 'You are not my king yet, boy' part, though he also says he would have acted against the order). This implies that Terenas as king had authority over the Silver Hand, which Arthas was a part of. So the position he had over Arthas was threefold as father, king and commader(?) of the paladins.

And 'people blame Terenas so blaming Rastakhan isn't foolish' is pretty faulty logic, as I can just say both are foolish here. You don't call someone a murderer when his kid runs from home and shoots some dude on the streets. One would say it's a shame he wasn't able to stop the incident beforehand, but that's about it.

[Varodoc]

Uther makes it pretty clear that if Arthas was king he would have had the authority to order Uther to purge the city (hence the 'You are not my king yet, boy' part, though he also says he would have acted against the order). This implies that Terenas as king had authority over the Silver Hand, which Arthas was a part of. So the position he had over Arthas was threefold as father, king and commader(?) of the paladins.

I still fail to see how any of this is somehow Terenas' fault or proves that he was incompetent/foolish.

The Arthas that Terenas raised and knew was bratty, arrogant, and foolhardy, but not batshit insane. Neither Terenas nor anyone else could anticipate that Arthas would go crazy and slaughter an entire city, meanwhile Rastakhan knew that Zul was an insane madman rambling prophet, so he should have been more careful. Furthermore, Terenas could no longer keep a close eye on his son because he was senile and old, but he wasn't neglectful, he knew that his son was still bratty, so he sent Arthas to help Uther in his missions. So at least he understood that Arthas needed more guidance, and he knew that Uther would make for a good tutor. This is acknowledged in the first mission:

Uther the Lightbringer: You too, lad. I'm pleased that King Terenas sent you to help me.
Arthas: Father still hopes your patience and experience might rub off on me.
Uther the Lightbringer: It is a father's right to dream, isn't it?

If anything, it was pretty smart of Terenas to think of sending Arthas to help Uther, so that Uther could complete his son's training. The only mistake everyone made (Terenas, Uther, Jaina, and so on) was underestimating just how batshit crazy Arthas would become, and sadly they didn't have the power of hindsight.

Again, this is not the case with Rastakhan. Zul was always fucking insane so Rastakhan should have been more hesitant about giving him a literal war fleet.

Like, wtf did Rastakhan think was going to happen?

"Let me just give a massive war fleet to a crazy old prophet who never shuts up about rebuilding the troll empire, gee, i wonder what could go wrong"

Two options are before us:

1) Rastakhan genuinely didn't think Zul would go rogue and use his war ship to attack other nations, in his dream to restore the Empire of Zul (literally titled after himself);

2) Rastakhan knew Zul likely would have used said warships to attack other nations, he just didn't care.

If it's option 1), then Rastakhan is beyond stupidity. If it's option 2), if Rastakhan didn't give a shit about the Alliance nations that would be hurt by Zul's actions, why should the Alliance give a shit about Talanji or Zandalar?

And 'people blame Terenas so blaming Rastakhan isn't foolish' is pretty faulty logic, as I can just say both are foolish here

And so what point were you hoping to make when you decided to mention Terenas? That Rastakhan isn't the only incompetent leader in Azeroth? I don't disagree and we even brought up Garrosh and Sylvanas as two other examples of incompetent leaders.

You don't call someone a murderer when his kid runs from home and shoots some dude on the streets. One would say it's a shame he wasn't able to stop the incident beforehand, but that's about it.

Still not what happened with Rastakhan.

Anyone sane would find it weird if said parent, after learning of what their kid did, took no action whatsoever and simply continued as if nothing ever happened.

Which is, you know, once again, what Rastakhan did. He didn't punish Zul in any way and kept him around as his closest advisor and leader of the Zanchuli Council.

If Rastakhan had bothered to send a letter to High King Varian or High King Anduin, apologizing for Zul's actions, and making it clear that the royal family (himself and Talanji) had no love for Zul nor they condoned his actions, the Alliance would have understood and that unfortunate diplomatic accident would have been avoided.

This is what a good monarch would have done, a monarch who takes his responsibilities seriously.

Instead, Rastakhan didn't care about giving a war fleet to his crazy supremacist prophet, didn't care about the possibility of said prophet going rogue and waging war on foreign nations, didn't care about punishing said rogue subordinate to send a message to the other nations, and then acted surprised when the Alliance, understandably, took his daughter captive, because they had no way of knowing that Zul went rogue and wasn't acting on Rastakhan's orders.

Good. Fucking. Riddance.

Literally the worst monarch in the history of Warcraft, this guy literally made so many mistakes that it's incredible he survived 46 assassination attempts.

Although, the fact that he had 46 assassination attempts on his life in the first place tells us about how competent he was as a ruler, eh? And for the record, the last attempt came from his wife, so... his own wife tried to murder him, I have literally never seen a more incompetent monarch in Azeroth's history.

[Aucald]

This thread isn't about which faction is the least intelligent or strategic, so let's pivot away from this back-and-forth and return to the actual topic at hand.

[Syegfryed]

This is a false equivalence. Warcraft is a franchise. The Jedi are a fictional organization in the Star Wars franchise.

That is not an equivalence, the factions are fundamental party of the warcraft franchise, just like the jedis are fundamental party of the star wars franchise

you can have a story that is told without factions or the jedi, but its not going to be the biggest point.

The Alliance didn't even exist until the second game

Still was the opposite fight of two forces, the humans and the orcs.

Didn't we know Garrosh would be the villain of MoP back when the expac was announced???

No, it was only later in the development they decided they needed a villain for the expansion and Garrosh suited best. Mostly because at that time, there was a bunch of complaints about horde crying that Garrosh was being too mean and war was wrong and the alliance complaining that Garrosh was taking too much in cata as well.

Later some rumors arose that it was Kosak(or it was another Dev, i rly don't remember) who wanted that for spite to another dev.

[Nymrohd]

No, it was only later in the development they decided they needed a villain for the expansion and Garrosh suited best. Mostly because at that time, there was a bunch of complaints about horde crying that Garrosh was being too mean and war was wrong and the alliance complaining that Garrosh was taking too much in cata as well.

Later some rumors arose that it was Kosak(or it was another Dev, i rly don't remember) who wanted that for spite to another dev.

Meh if they had not decided upon it at launch, it was still clear as day by 5.1 after the Divine Bell questline.

[Darth-Piekus]

Meh if they had not decided upon it at launch, it was still clear as day by 5.1 after the Divine Bell questline.

It was clear as day the moment Garrosh stepped in Azeroth that he would be a problem to be dealt with sooner or later. I predicted this would happen way back.

On topic though what do you think about the title. Do both factions deserve to be disbanded or do you think only the Horde should be disbanded considering the events they caused which lead to two Old Gods, an alternate invasion, a Legion Invasion and a Reality Unmaker Zovaal. Should the Alliance who cleans up their mess disband also?

[Varodoc]

It was clear as day the moment Garrosh stepped in Azeroth that he would be a problem to be dealt with sooner or later. I predicted this would happen way back.

On topic though what do you think about the title. Do both factions deserve to be disbanded or do you think only the Horde should be disbanded considering the events they caused which lead to two Old Gods, an alternate invasion, a Legion Invasion and a Reality Unmaker Zovaal. Should the Alliance who cleans up their mess disband also?

I mean, at least as far as the Tauren are concerned, they are just begging to be allowed in the Alliance. Baine and Mayla were literally in Stormwind Keep in BfA as if they were members of the royal court:




And of course we cannot forget about Lor'themar Theron literally negotiating with High King Varian to bring Quel'Thalas back into the fold, until plot God intervened to keep the game balanced... errr, until Jaina snapped and purged 10 blood elves from Dalaran.

It seems like, whenever there's major conflict, it's the Horde that is usually running short on allies, not the Alliance, so there's your answer.

Plus, the Alliance has no shortage of races asking to join, but they turn down such offers if they don't meet their standards. Like the Forsaken, who originally wanted to join the Alliance, but were understandably turned down because they are monsters. Meanwhile, the Horde usually just recruits the stragglers who were previously turned down by the Alliance.

So really, is there any actual reason why the Alliance should disband? If anything, when Blizzard reworks the game entirely and shifts focus away from the double factions, we might be seeing former Horde races collaborating much closer with the Alliance.

The tauren under Baine have always been friends of the Alliance, the Forsaken under Calia Menethil and Derek Proudmoore would also be welcomed to rejoin the fold. There's really no reason why Stormwind should just declare one day "pack your things everyone, time to go home, the Alliance is over".

[Utrrabbit]

Yeah, the Horde calls that "Monday morning at the office".

You missed the point, it's incredibly one-sided with the Alliance only ever winning on paper or in offhand mentions while its losses and humiliations take center stage. It's asking for the conflict to never be a major plot point again due to this.

Alliance LITERALLY won 99% of all the battles on bfa. Stop with this made up bs lies.

[Caiphon]

It was clear as day the moment Garrosh stepped in Azeroth that he would be a problem to be dealt with sooner or later. I predicted this would happen way back.

On topic though what do you think about the title. Do both factions deserve to be disbanded or do you think only the Horde should be disbanded considering the events they caused which lead to two Old Gods, an alternate invasion, a Legion Invasion and a Reality Unmaker Zovaal. Should the Alliance who cleans up their mess disband also?

Having just one of the factions removed isn't going to happen like ever, as there's no way the Alliance can accomodate all the Horde races and vice versa. If factions do get removed at some point in time then most likely both factions will disband and give way to a new one that either includes all sapient races on Azeroth or works like some sort of 'adventurer's league' that can at least accomodate all the PCs.

[Nymrohd]

Alliance LITERALLY won 99% of all the battles on bfa. Stop with this made up bs lies.

And immediately after all their effort was deleted at Nazjatar, we got a cinematic telling us that there is no military left and next time we'll need peasants levies and we end up infront of Orgrimmar with the Horde rebels and told that we are massively outnumbered and hopeless. So as always, the Alliance gets to win on paper while being told they are in desperate states constantly in game.

- - - Updated - - -

It was clear as day the moment Garrosh stepped in Azeroth that he would be a problem to be dealt with sooner or later. I predicted this would happen way back.

On topic though what do you think about the title. Do both factions deserve to be disbanded or do you think only the Horde should be disbanded considering the events they caused which lead to two Old Gods, an alternate invasion, a Legion Invasion and a Reality Unmaker Zovaal. Should the Alliance who cleans up their mess disband also?

I answered very early in the thread. I believe in scrapping the Alliance and Horde, at least for the players, but only if it is actually done properly in lore. In other places in the thread I point to different times it could have happened. E.g. immediately after Legion show the factions both in tatters, completely depowered trying to stave off the Legion assaults and have the Class Halls stand in the front against future threats. Or instead of 8.2.5 and 8.3 have an actual Siege of Stormwind and end it with N'zoth's forces assaulting Stormwind harbor, Sylvanas yeeting away and the Alliance and Horde barely pushing them and going into a truce. Follow with a Visions of N'zoth xpac that tells us the same story in many places; Horde or Alliance constantly ending up having to choose between saving each other's civilians or heroes from N'zoth's forces or abandoning them to their fates. By the end of the expansion we will be fighting side by side and the people who remain would choose to band together and leave hostilities behind.

- - - Updated - - -

Having just one of the factions removed isn't going to happen like ever, as there's no way the Alliance can accomodate all the Horde races and vice versa. If factions do get removed at some point in time then most likely both factions will disband and give way to a new one that either includes all sapient races on Azeroth or works like some sort of 'adventurer's league' that can at least accomodate all the PCs.

Imo game should have always had multiple factions (4-5 maybe even add more down the line like People of Pandaria or People of Zandalar), you should have always been able to create cross faction guilds and cross faction groups. Let each faction have a unique class like they did back in Vanilla for flavor (e.g. Alliance Paladins, Horde Shaman, Kaldorei Druids, Illidari Demon Hunters, Forsaken Death Knights).

[Loreth88]

Alliance LITERALLY won 99% of all the battles on bfa. Stop with this made up bs lies.

Alliance victories count just as much as Horde losses. Nothing! Neither wins nor losses have a weight. A dialogue with the faction leaders? It's cheap.

[Caiphon]

Alliance victories count just as much as Horde losses. Nothing! Neither wins nor losses have a weight. A dialogue with the faction leaders? It's cheap.

There is literally a raid tier that's all about the Alliance shitting on the Horde (Dazar'alor) and another where they take down the Horde warchief (Siege of Orgrimmar), though the latter was done in cooperation with Horde rebels. Meanwhile I haven't seen a raid or even a proper dungeon where the Horde strikes a decisive blow to the Alliance. Man I'd love to have a Siege of Stormwind raid one of these days...

[Nymrohd]

There is literally a raid tier that's all about the Alliance shitting on the Horde (Dazar'alor) and another where they take down the Horde warchief (Siege of Orgrimmar), though the latter was done in cooperation with Horde rebels. Meanwhile I haven't seen a raid or even a proper dungeon where the Horde strikes a decisive blow to the Alliance. Man I'd love to have a Siege of Stormwind raid one of these days...

Garrosh was not really the Horde Warchief at that point. He had the backing of not a single major power unless you count Zaela. At least Sylvanas had the majority of the civilians and several racial leaders with her up till the end.
Also Dazar'alor was not a Horde city at the time. If anything it became a Horde city because the Alliance stupidly attacked it instead of just blowing up the Golden Fleet, mooning Rastakhan and getting the hell out of dodge.1

[Loreth88]

There is literally a raid tier that's all about the Alliance shitting on the Horde (Dazar'alor) and another where they take down the Horde warchief (Siege of Orgrimmar), though the latter was done in cooperation with Horde rebels. Meanwhile I haven't seen a raid or even a proper dungeon where the Horde strikes a decisive blow to the Alliance. Man I'd love to have a Siege of Stormwind raid one of these days...

There is literally expansions when Horde shitting on alliance. Cataclysm, for example, was an expansion where the Alliance had to retreat on all "fronts". In vanilla, even though it is a weakened horde, after W3, were they able to operate in the territories of the night elves, kill them and sabotage them in their own lands?
The OG raid may have been an Alliance victory, but it was also a Horde victory, as most of the leaders also attacked their capital and wanted to free their people from Garrosh's rule. And it didn't have any negative consequences for the Horde either after the battle.
BFA started with a carry win at Teldrassil, Then a win at UC, Successful escape and fooling all of SW and its defense. Alliance won Drakshore Warfront and Stormgrade warfront, but Stromgrade warfront doesn't count, it's too far from even dwarven safe areas, hard to hold, send reinforcements and ammo.
Alliance won the Zandalar battle, but it cost too much in Nazmir, but it wasn't really a victory either, there were a lot of losses, in ships and people, the area was not taken, there was really no booty.

[Al Gorefiend]

Alliance LITERALLY won 99% of all the battles on bfa. Stop with this made up bs lies.

This is true. The Horde lost the 4th war, it was played out very obviously to the players that we lost. Our city got sacked, our leader turns traitor, infighting throughout the faction.

[Caiphon]

There is literally expansions when Horde shitting on alliance. Cataclysm, for example, was an expansion where the Alliance had to retreat on all "fronts". In vanilla, even though it is a weakened horde, after W3, were they able to operate in the territories of the night elves, kill them and sabotage them in their own lands?
The OG raid may have been an Alliance victory, but it was also a Horde victory, as most of the leaders also attacked their capital and wanted to free their people from Garrosh's rule. And it didn't have any negative consequences for the Horde either after the battle.
BFA started with a carry win at Teldrassil, Then a win at UC, Successful escape and fooling all of SW and its defense. Alliance won Drakshore Warfront and Stormgrade warfront, but Stromgrade warfront doesn't count, it's too far from even dwarven safe areas, hard to hold, send reinforcements and ammo.
Alliance won the Zandalar battle, but it cost too much in Nazmir, but it wasn't really a victory either, there were a lot of losses, in ships and people, the area was not taken, there was really no booty.

In vanilla the Alliance had a presence in Durotar of all places, in the literal heart of the Horde. I do not believe a minute Horde presence in Ashenvale makes this a win for the Horde. And the Alliance did not in fact retreat from all fronts during Cataclysm - see the Southern Barrens quests.

There was one 'win' for the Horde during BfA, Teldrassil. Lordaeron is hardly a win for the Horde when they needed to destroy one of their capital cities in order to stop the Alliance from capturing it. Not to mention all this was shown through pre-patch quests that became unavailable shortly after BfA went live. On the other hand, players (at least those who raid in LFR level and above) went through Dazar'alor dozens of times throughout the expansion. Be assured that it wasn't the most pleasant experience ever, especially since the Horde PC was somewhat instrumental in allowing the Alliance to walk into the city unhindered in the first place.

I wouldn't really say the Alliance lost much in Zandalar - they specifically deployed the bare minimum number of troops necessary to lure the Horde into Nazmir, and not a single figure of any importance was lost during the following battles. Sure Mekkatorque was injured but by that logic one could say Teldrassil cost the Horde dearly as Saurfang was captured. And if you consider which one survived at the end of the expansion well... Also a bit ridiculous to say the Alliance victory in Arathi doesn't count, as with the Undercity in ruins the closest Horde capital is half a continent away in Silvermoon. Had the war continued Stromgarde would have been the perfect base of operations to advance into Hillsbrad.

[Aucald]

This thread is also not Alliance vs. Horde, which is better, etc. - but rather if the story would be better with neither faction.