[TV] House of the Dragon

[PACOX]

Guy wanted her to run away with him after a late-night booty call. And when she rejected that idea, as most rational people would, he murders a dude at her arranged wedding then tries to kill himself.

But yeah, a young Princess wanting to have sex freely is the issue. Poor guy

Im not sure how to explain this one...

The man was deeply devoted to his oath as well as protecting her. He gave up all his ambitions in life for his oath and service to her family. Everything. Any chance of a family, riches, love life, a normal life in general. When she came on to him he thought it was more than just a fling. He thought she genuinely cared for him. When he found out he happened to be the closest dick around that shit hurt to his core. He had betrayed his entire life just to be a noble's plaything.

Its a classic theme, but with the genders reversed. Shocker, men can kill emotionally abused and manipulated as well when objectified by people who hold authority over them. Its that simple, he felt emotionally abused. He killed the other guy out of hurt, anger, frustration towards the games of thrones and how the guy tried to just normalize the way nobles see them. The man was on edge, obviously suicidal, and the guy he killed was the last straw.


Top of my head, my guy was Monica Lewinsky.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

citation needed

You can see it yourself on these pages. I'm not actually going to mention tthe individuals but I'll point out what they said

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion***/page290
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion***/page291

Who was raped? I know it wasn't Sansa since her duty is to get boned on her wedding night.

People are debating whether or not Sansa was raped. It did have a rapey vibe to it but they were married and their wedding night. Bitch coulda said nah fuck this shit I'm out peace and just like slit his throat or something.

Besides the fact she said yes to marrying him and never once said no to having sex?

Chill out dude, this isn't helpful to the discussion. Of course she didn't want to do it, but in that world when you're married you have to. Stop trying to apply real world morals to something that doesn't take place in the real world.

[deenman]

You can see it yourself on these pages. I'm not actually going to mention tthe individuals but I'll point out what they said

thanks....ykes,hopes in humanity further dashed....darn u >_<

[eschatological]

thanks....ykes,hopes in humanity further dashed....darn u >_<

It's almost like I've been the mod of this subforum for a decade.

[deenman]

It's almost like I've been the mod of this subforum for a decade.

No one deserves such a fate,not even the worst people i can imagine,the horror.......the...horror

[Ghost of Cow]

but lets not pretend that there hasn't always has been more pressure and consequences for women who aren't "pure" before marriage. Hell, women are still frowned upon for having multiple sexual partners. Men aren't.

Which, again, isn't the point of what happened here, but the fact that it's the only argument people seem to have is telling I guess.

[Ghost of Cow]

Which is crazy. They camped out together and had sex once. This "deep" connection he thinks that they had together, didn't happen. He's needy and desperate af, and being turned down causes him to turn into a vindictive pos towards Rhae. Dude is a huge red flag.

I like how you keep boiling this down to, "He didn't get a second date." like these people are teenagers in New York or something.

Just toss context out the window, I suppose.

[PACOX]

Which is crazy. They camped out together and had sex once. This "deep" connection he thinks that they had together, didn't happen. He's needy and desperate af, and being turned down causes him to turn into a vindictive pos towards Rhae. Dude is a huge red flag.

IDK how I feel about telling someone they shouldn't feel like they were exploited. I'm definitely not going to tell them they should shoulder the blame. Life experience might tell you "hey, these people don't actually give a damn about you" but that doesn't excuse leading someone on an exploitative behavior. The blame always falls on the person in power and led the other person on. Man, woman, doesn't matter.

Even then, the one-night stand wasn't even the end of it. She should have told him what it was but instead did the dismissive sneaky shit that all people of power in the show do because they aren't good people - you're not supposed to see them as good people. She used him, cast him aside without a word, so of course he is going to be pissed. He is supposed to just back to being her door holder for the rest of his life knowing what he knows? No shot. Worse is that she (I didn't read the books so IDK if its actually the case) might be carrying his child without even telling him. That kid is going grow up as the son of her and her cousin, and he can't even get a Father's Day card. He has a lot to be pissed about.

What he did was irrational, but his anger is understood.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Even then, the one-night stand wasn't even the end of it. She should have told him what it was but instead did the dismissive sneaky shit that all people of power in the show do because they aren't good people - you're not supposed to see them as good people. She used him, cast him aside without a word, so of course he is going to be pissed. He is supposed to just back to being her door holder for the rest of his life knowing what he knows? No shot. Worse is that she (I didn't read the books so IDK if its actually the case) might be carrying his child without even telling him. That kid is going grow up as the son of her and her cousin, and he can't even get a Father's Day card. He has a lot to be pissed about.

She didn't "cast him aside" though. She didn't make any promises of everlasting love towards him. And even after she said she couldn't marry him... she was like "Hey, we can still bone down whenever...I just have to marry this other guy...but he's cool with that".

I'm not saying it was cool for her to seduce him like that... it was, as I stated earlier, reckless and irresponsible. But only one of them is an oathbreaker.

[MikeBogina]

She used him, cast him aside without a word, so of course he is going to be pissed. He is supposed to just back to being her door holder for the rest of his life knowing what he knows? No shot.

Where was the casting aside? She is the reason he has this prestigious position, as they wanted someone from a renown family with power to have the position. It's kind idiotic that he would assume that she'd throw away her crown and duty to the realm, to be the wife of a sell sword, just so he can replace his honor. He can do that himself without her.
No there's nothing to worry about with fathering, I don't know if he learns what Allicent knows(the plan b tea) but those kids are too strong to be Cole's

The irony is that he, a low-born who was bestowed a high position that would raise his house by said princess, is also wanting her to throw away so much more, so that he can feel like his honor isn't wasted for nothing. He went from being a cool, down to earth, relatable low-born, to suddenly "MUH HONOR" idiot real fast.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not saying it was cool for her to seduce him like that... it was, as I stated earlier, reckless and irresponsible. But only one of them is an oathbreaker.

it's almost like she was a hormonal teenager and not some scheme-ing evil person.

[PACOX]

She didn't "cast him aside" though. She didn't make any promises of everlasting love towards him. And even after she said she couldn't marry him... she was like "Hey, we can still bone down whenever...I just have to marry this other guy...but he's cool with that".

I'm not saying it was cool for her to seduce him like that... it was, as I stated earlier, reckless and irresponsible. But only one of them is an oathbreaker.

He if wanted and knew he was going to just a side piece, that's fine. Two consenting adults can do whatever they want. That's wasn't his impression going into it though. She selfishly exploited the power dynamic between them. Don't get me wrong, he isn't blameless. He had his vows, should have known better, he was still misled and exploited, and you can't just dismiss the feelings of the exploited as "haha, you got duped".

- - - Updated - - -

Where was the casting aside? She is the reason he has this prestigious position, as they wanted someone from a renown family with power to have the position. It's kind idiotic that he would assume that she'd throw away her crown and duty to the realm, to be the wife of a sell sword, just so he can replace his honor. He can do that himself without her.
No there's nothing to worry about with fathering, I don't know if he learns what Allicent knows(the plan b tea) but those kids are too strong to be Cole's

The irony is that he, a low-born who was bestowed a high position that would raise his house by said princess, is also wanting her to throw away so much more, so that he can feel like his honor isn't wasted for nothing. He went from being a cool, down to earth, relatable low-born, to suddenly "MUH HONOR" idiot real fast.

Did she go public, or did she want him to remain her secret whore manservant? That's what I mean by cast aside. No different from some asshole banging his secretary and only being affectionate towards her when no one is watching. It's exploitative scummy behavior unless the other person is 100% fine with it. Just because they are fucking means they are 100% cool with it when the power dynamic is off. With both the secretary in real life and the case of buddy, for all they know if they stop accepting advances, they get thrown under the bus.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

He if wanted and knew he was going to just a side piece, that's fine. Two consenting adults can do whatever they want. That's wasn't his impression going into it though. She selfishly exploited the power dynamic between them. Don't get me wrong, he isn't blameless. He had his vows, should have known better, he was still misled and exploited, and you can't just dismiss the feelings of the exploited as "haha, you got duped".

Exploited is debatable... there is a power imbalance at play... but he doesn't work for her. He works for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and, by externsion, the King. His duty is to protect her. That also means protecting her from herself.

But misled? No... she never gave him any indication that there was anything more to what was happening than sex. She complained to him once that she wasn't allowed to marry for love... but she never said she loved him. She was horny, he was available.

And his proposal wasn't about love anyway...it was about his shame. He thought that if they could run away together and be married that it would somehow lessen his shame.

[MikeBogina]

Did she go public, or did she want him to remain her secret whore manservant? That's what I mean by cast aside. No different from some asshole banging his secretary and only being affectionate towards her when no one is watching.

I still wouldn't say that's casted aside. Casted aside would be like marrying for power and then i no longer need you, so i leave you. Or i had sex with you, but now i dont have sex with you... so i cast you aside. There's no casting aside here, she had sex with him in secret and wants to continue the sex with him. He's the one who's asking for a change.

It's exploitative scummy behavior unless the other person is 100% fine with it. Just because they are fucking means they are 100% cool with it when the power dynamic is off. With both the secretary in real life and the case of buddy, for all they know if they stop accepting advances, they get thrown under the bus.

There's a lot of ways to look at this. She's a teenage girl(or maybe 20, 21 now?) and she just have her virginity to him. They've known each other for years, he knows her really well, she's the reason he has this position that he himself thinks is amazing. This isn't just some boss fucking a secretary, this is is a friend and I hate to say this(cause I'm not a feminist) a girl giving her first time with someone to whom she trusts. Keep in mind that sex to her was a death sentence for her mother and is clearly being portrayed that way by the Showrunners. He's been there through a lot of this and knows her. This guy wasn't worried about her ruining his job, this is a guy who threw away his honor for the girl who probably already had feelings for and was hoping she'd throw away everything to be with him. I do believe that after his talk with Alicent, that he probably was worried about the consequences and maybe in a paranoid thought process, believed Rhaenyra spilled the beans as 2 people questioned him, one stupidly making it sound like a threat.

[PACOX]

I still wouldn't say that's casted aside. Casted aside would be like marrying for power and then i no longer need you, so i leave you. Or i had sex with you, but now i dont have sex with you... so i cast you aside. There's no casting aside here, she had sex with him in secret and wants to continue the sex with him. He's the one who's asking for a change.

Funny that you frame it this way because I believe the alliance between him and the queen it upon them both feeling like they were cast aside. I get what all of you are saying but we're talking about GoT characters, not well adjusted individuals who accept responsibility and consequences for their actions, or refuse to further escalate situations until a bunch of people end up dead.

There's a lot of ways to look at this. She's a teenage girl(or maybe 20, 21 now?) and she just have her virginity to him. They've known each other for years, he knows her really well, she's the reason he has this position that he himself thinks is amazing. This isn't just some boss fucking a secretary, this is is a friend and I hate to say this(cause I'm not a feminist) a girl giving her first time with someone to whom she trusts. Keep in mind that sex to her was a death sentence for her mother and is clearly being portrayed that way by the Showrunners. He's been there through a lot of this and knows her. This guy wasn't worried about her ruining his job, this is a guy who threw away his honor for the girl who probably already had feelings for and was hoping she'd throw away everything to be with him. I do believe that after his talk with Alicent, that he probably was worried about the consequences and maybe in a paranoid thought process, believed Rhaenyra spilled the beans as 2 people questioned him, one stupidly making it sound like a threat.

I think you're being charitable to Rhaenyra within the circumstances. He chose to break his vows with her because she is "his lady" he is sworn to protect and though his fetishization/admiration/crush/whatever he had towards her was being reciprocated - not saying it was right, but its how people end up falling for their teachers/bosses/supervisors/etc. She was looking for a rebound because she got rejected by her uncle. She had already made up her mind to break her vows and only chose him due to his proximity and the implied power dynamic between them. He wouldn't have broken his vows for anyone but her, she chose him because he was easy to exploit. He had feeling towards him and was horny. She was just horny and clearly seems him as her underling, even if they have a cordial relationship.

She gets caught, she is forced to marry. He gets caught, he gets executed. The consequences are not the same which is why I see the person in the position of power being the worst of the two and why I can understand (but like I said not condone) his overall response.

[Ghost of Cow]

Gotta say, never thought I'd see (non-troll) people around here using, "But they were a horny teenager!" as an excuse for bad behavior.

You learn a lot from role swap situations, though.

[PACOX]

Exploited is debatable... there is a power imbalance at play... but he doesn't work for her. He works for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and, by externsion, the King. His duty is to protect her. That also means protecting her from herself.

So he works for her. All you did was describe the hierarchy of power, he still works for her. He is sworn to do whatever she does, even die for her, short of what contradicting an order from the king.

You think he would have still slept with her if he knew she off Daemon giving her blue balls? Anyone would have seen those red flags, even a guy infatuated with his superior.

I mean its interesting to see genders reversed in a story, but it doesn't make it okay. Makes for a great story, but I'm not to sit here and try to morally justify it, especially in a show where almost nothing is morally justifiable. None of these people are good, honest people.

[eschatological]

Exploited is debatable... there is a power imbalance at play... but he doesn't work for her. He works for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and, by externsion, the King. His duty is to protect her. That also means protecting her from herself.

But misled? No... she never gave him any indication that there was anything more to what was happening than sex. She complained to him once that she wasn't allowed to marry for love... but she never said she loved him. She was horny, he was available.

And his proposal wasn't about love anyway...it was about his shame. He thought that if they could run away together and be married that it would somehow lessen his shame.

If the Secret Service agent tasked with protecting the President's daughter slept with her after she puts the move on him, would that be okay because she has "no power" over him because he technically reports to the President?

I think it's pretty clear she's in a position of power over him which she abused. She also abused their friendship and possibly his latent feelings for her, and he caught feelings very quick, so there's "mitigating factors" and "other perspectives." None of which negates that she was abusive towards him.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

If the Secret Service agent tasked with protecting the President's daughter slept with her after she puts the move on him, would that be okay because she has "no power" over him because he technically reports to the President?

I think it's pretty clear she's in a position of power over him which she abused. She also abused their friendship and possibly his latent feelings for her, and he caught feelings very quick, so there's "mitigating factors" and "other perspectives." None of which negates that she was abusive towards him.

I didn't say it was "ok". I have said several times that what she did was reckless and irresponsible.

Also, a SS agent doesn't swear to God that he will remain celibate.

[eschatological]

I didn't say it was "ok". I have said several times that what she did was reckless and irresponsible.

Also, a SS agent doesn't swear to God that he will remain celibate.

They do have ethical and legal obligations to not become involved with their Protectees though. It can compromise their security.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

So he works for her. All you did was describe the hierarchy of power, he still works for her. He is sworn to do whatever she does, even die for her, short of what contradicting an order from the king.

Do you think maybe protecting her chastity might be something the King would expect from his Kingsguard?

You think he would have still slept with her if he knew she off Daemon giving her blue balls? Anyone would have seen those red flags, even a guy infatuated with his superior.

I absolutely do. He didn't take much convincing. Dude was down to fuck. I think the only difference is he would have gone to kill Daemon too.

I mean its interesting to see genders reversed in a story, but it doesn't make it okay. Makes for a great story, but I'm not to sit here and try to morally justify it, especially in a show where almost nothing is morally justifiable. None of these people are good, honest people.

Again, never said it was "ok". I said she didn't mislead him in anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

They do have ethical and legal obligations to not become involved with their Protectees though. It can compromise their security.

Which adds to my point of "what he did is worse than what she did."