What do you think was the worst raid tier?

[Flurryfang]

I can't imagine a raid without trash that ultimately doesn't end up feeling like ToC in practice. Trash has a place in raids even if raiders hate it.

Its a thing, that brings life to a raid. We have even had a number of raids, whos number of trash pack can be counted on 2 hands, like BWD, BoT, OL, ML, GL among others. We have actually had a surprising number of raids, where the number of trash you had to interact with were very little, but god is it important that it is there.

Raids with no trash breask the illusions and shows clearly, that most raids are just different battle arenas with a big mob in the middle. Trash conceals that and makes it feel like place in use and living.

[Okacz]

I can't imagine a raid without trash that ultimately doesn't end up feeling like ToC in practice. Trash has a place in raids even if raiders hate it.

ToC was plagued other stuff than "no-trash policy". 2 total locations, only 5 bosses, long-ass RP, stupid amount of difficulties, faction champions being... interesting.

I imagine I could live in the world where Sepulcher doesn't have the long "kill ALL the robots on the bridge" sidequest in between bosses. Perhaps at this point WoW players are just used to it, like it's a tradition, but ATM raid trash really feels like a worthless waste of time (until they drop me a BoE that sells).

[Nymrohd]

no question imo: Emerald was the most cheap shit raid of all times. but it’s tier will be hold up by Nighthold.

So i assume it will become a race between Dragonsoul and Grand Crusader and the latter one will win.

Here is the thing. Grand Crusader is just meh. It was fairly easy, somewhat boring. Super fast to clear and then if you wanted you could go back and finish hard modes you got stuck on in Ulduar with better gear/spend more time getting maces for healers.

Dragon Soul was actively disappointing. What is actually happening in Dragon Soul is pretty damn epic. For the fans of the Lore this should have been a moment to match or surpass ICC. Yet they fail to build to the raid ending with the first four bosses being nobodies and then the Deathwing encounter is probably the MOST disappointing encounter we've had in WoW (more than even N'zoth, at least that encounter is cool until the end cinematic . . .)

[Relapses]

ToC was plagued other stuff than "no-trash policy". 2 total locations, only 5 bosses, long-ass RP, stupid amount of difficulties, faction champions being... interesting.

I imagine I could live in the world where Sepulcher doesn't have the long "kill ALL the robots on the bridge" sidequest in between bosses. Perhaps at this point WoW players are just used to it, like it's a tradition, but ATM raid trash really feels like a worthless waste of time (until they drop me a BoE that sells).

There's a healthy balance between no trash at all and whatever Blizzard thought was a good idea with Sepulcher. It's not easy to balance perfectly but I see a lot of people (raiders especially) frequently suggest that Blizzard should yeet trash altogether which is mainly why I mentioned it.

[Zardas]

I can't imagine a raid without trash that ultimately doesn't end up feeling like ToC in practice. Trash has a place in raids even if raiders hate it.

Exactly, bosses feel epic because they follow up a group of trash and are stronger than those peons. Remove the trash and you just get a succession of bosses without personnality, all feeling as bland as the previous one. Trash are mandatory to create the illusion of danger when finally getting to the boss.

[Okacz]

There's a healthy balance between no trash at all and whatever Blizzard thought was a good idea with Sepulcher. It's not easy to balance perfectly but I see a lot of people (raiders especially) frequently suggest that Blizzard should yeet trash altogether which is mainly why I mentioned it.

Yeah I still don't think I'd hate it. If Sepulcher, Sanctum or whatever didn't have trash (or maybe some optional trash if you like big numbers and a chance for BoE) things would have been... fine? Chance to do some progress/reclears within 3h without wasting it on bullshit, if you need to space out the bosses in time just make yourself a 3 minute beer break before each boss, ending with a healthy 10 beer evening each raid. Never in any raid was I happy that I get to spend 10 minutes cleaving nameless mobs before we get back into action. And yeah, having bosses separated by 1 mob or none at all always felt good.

Perhaps a good middle-of-the-way solution would be just to get rid of just armies of mobs on bridges (Dausegne syndrome, let's call it), and leave stuff like Gargoyles before Shrekwing, or the big automa before Lihuvim? Mini boss encounters before the "real" bosses. I agree that trash is required if we don't want empty corridors, but it's never fun to go through said corridors when its filled with trash, quite a conundrum.

[Aameli Aameli]

yes totally agree with you bro....trash has a specific place in raids...i totally agree with you.

[Usernameforforums]

I really really really really hated Highmaul. I thought all the fights were just awful

I think they were awesome. Though, shield boss, Koragh I think, was probably the low point of the instance. I will never forget RISE MOUNTAINS and the meme it became.

Ot, dragon soul and hyjal are pretty much the worst raids in wows history. Tomb of sargeras isn’t a favorite of mine either.

[garicasha]

Unnamed mobs are one of the things that people think they hate, but if absent would completely kill any sort of immersion or depth to the journey. (As someone else pointed out, the raids would just be a series of large circular rooms.)

[Sinfelle]

Hyjal was absolutely my most hated raid. Never liked the wave based combat just like Black Morass. Bosses weren't anything special either

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Cata (minus firelands) the only expansion I have quit for the game being dogshit, quit week 1 of dragon soul with no regrets.

wait so you quit in cata, but not in BFA or SL? Think if that's true it makes your view of what's dogshit invalid

[Accendor]

Dragon Soul, the only end raid that's entirely made out of reused assets save for the last two bosses who jointly take up the spot of the worst end raid the game has produced. Combine that with the endless cutscenes and dialogue digressions and the lack of any real stand out fight the way ToC was at least tight for what it was. On top of this, ToC had to last a handful months, whereas DS had to be the main raid content for a year. There's nothing that really comes close to DS and given the way development works these days I doubt it's even possible for something like it to get a green light again.

Did you play Battle for Dazar Alor, which was also completely made out if reused assets?

[Super Dickmann]

Did you play Battle for Dazar Alor, which was also completely made out if reused assets?

Dragon Soul, the only end raid that's entirely made out of reused assets

Also, Dazar'alor despite being a tie-in raid has the inside of the ziggurat and Jaina's frosty isle, so beyond having better boss design and a unique gimmick it's also still got more new places.

[Accendor]

Also, Dazar'alor despite being a tie-in raid has the inside of the ziggurat and Jaina's frosty isle, so beyond having better boss design and a unique gimmick it's also still got more new places.

Yeah buts thats not fair in comparion, because Dragon Soul ALSO had 2 unique locations and the maelstrom part as well as the fight on the back were totally unique. I am not saying it was a good raid overall, it's just not fair to say it was the worst and then use those two things as arguments, when DoA did the same thing.

[Zardas]

Yeah buts thats not fair in comparion, because Dragon Soul ALSO had 2 unique locations

Which one ? Wyrmrest temple was not. The two maws were not. The Eye of Eternity was not. The airship was just a regular airship model. The back of Deathwing kinda, but kinda not at the same time. And the maelstorm was not.

[AlmightyGerkin]

I think they were awesome. Though, shield boss, Koragh I think, was probably the low point of the instance. I will never forget RISE MOUNTAINS and the meme it became.

Ot, dragon soul and hyjal are pretty much the worst raids in wows history. Tomb of sargeras isn’t a favorite of mine either.

Was a site that all it would do is just spam "RISE MOUNTAINS". Sadly it got shut down.|

Edit: Nevermind someone archived it https://web.archive.org/web/20210917.../tectus.rocks/

[Argorwal]

Hyjal and ToC are probably tied for being the largest pile of garbage ever, but I think Hyjal takes the cake.

[Nymrohd]

Which one ? Wyrmrest temple was not. The two maws were not. The Eye of Eternity was not. The airship was just a regular airship model. The back of Deathwing kinda, but kinda not at the same time. And the maelstorm was not.

How is it not? The back of Deathwing very much was a new area. And the Maelstrom was only accessible for a moment when you jump down to Deepholme.

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Hyjal and ToC are probably tied for being the largest pile of garbage ever, but I think Hyjal takes the cake.

I think if the question had been worst raid instead of worst raid tier then Hyjal would rank much higher. But the question was for the worst tier and Hyjal came along with Black Temple.

[Caerrona]

wait so you quit in cata, but not in BFA or SL? Think if that's true it makes your view of what's dogshit invalid

BFA and SL have actual... content though. My opinion might have been changed back than if cata had m+, but it didn't therefore dogshit is correct.

[Accendor]

Which one ? Wyrmrest temple was not. The two maws were not. The Eye of Eternity was not. The airship was just a regular airship model. The back of Deathwing kinda, but kinda not at the same time. And the maelstorm was not.

I meant the back and the Maelstrom.
Maybe I am actually wrong here, but wasn't the Maelstrom were the fight took place the first time that location was used? If not, I'm sorry and concede this argument.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah buts thats not fair in comparion, because Dragon Soul ALSO had 2 unique locations and the maelstrom part as well as the fight on the back were totally unique. I am not saying it was a good raid overall, it's just not fair to say it was the worst and then use those two things as arguments, when DoA did the same thing.

The only new location in DS is Deathwing's back, as it's technically a separate area. Everything else is reused. Beyond an end raid being held to a higher standard and DS having worse boss design, arguably across the board, but definitely when it comes to the two Deathwing fights, there's also the relative time set aside for each. DS had to last several months longer and be the primary content in an expansion that, despite a better release cadence, had less total bosses than even Shadowlands.