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  1. #321
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Do you think maybe protecting her chastity might be something the King would expect from his Kingsguard?



    I absolutely do. He didn't take much convincing. Dude was down to fuck. I think the only difference is he would have gone to kill Daemon too.



    Again, never said it was "ok". I said she didn't mislead him in anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which adds to my point of "what he did is worse than what she did."
    So what she did wasn't okay but she didn't mislead him? So what did she do wrong?

    How is his role worse when she held all the power and initiated the act knowing it would "cost" him much more should they get caught?


    Saying "no" to a noble is not viewed as an option by many in their service because of the power they hold. The affair literally happened in the same episode where Alicent reluctantly slept with the king. They parallel wasn't coincidental. The whole point is to show how the Targaryens use and manipulate those around them.


    Also there's no way he would have slept with her if he knew about Daemon. That would have been completely out of character because he would have realized she was just using him.

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  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    So what she did wasn't okay but she didn't mislead him? So what did she do wrong?
    She slept with a man that was supposed to protect her and is sworn to celibacy.

    How is his role worse when she held all the power and initiated the act knowing it would "cost" him much more should they get caught?
    He's the one responsible for her safety.

    Saying "no" to a noble is not viewed as an option by many in their service because of the power they hold. The affair literally happened in the same episode where Alicent reluctantly slept with the king. They parallel wasn't coincidental. The whole point is to show how the Targaryens use and manipulate those around them.
    Saying no to Royalty is what you have to do sometimes when you are a member of the Kingsguard.

    Also there's no way he would have slept with her if he knew about Daemon. That would have been completely out of character because he would have realized she was just using him.
    It was also completely out of character for him to sleep with her in the first place. Not to mention beat a man to death. "Love" makes people do crazy things
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2022-09-21 at 06:37 AM.
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  3. #323
    Well, that ending seemed a little forced. Guess they had to do some murder, because it was a wedding and fans expect something bad to happen.

    But why on earth was Cole allowed to leave, after ruining the future Queens wedding/killing the future King Consorts "best friend" and failing to protect Rhaenyra in the confusion? Why did noone arrest him afterwards? Why did the kingsguard not stop the queen from visiting a murderer alone in the woods afterwards?
    (also minor point: whats up with all those southern Lords and Ladies standing in front of that old god tree in kings landing? I guess you don't kill yourself in a Sept, but still, killing yourself in front of a heart tree because you broke your oath to the seven, seems a bit like apologizing to Odin that you slept with a nun :>)

    And with the time skip coming, I don't think they are planing to explain any of that. He is just going to still be around with his balls and head attached. That all just seemed like late GoT storytelling that is just supposed to shock us without wanting to deal with any of the implications. I hope they don't do that again.

    ...

    Up until that point (him just leaving after the murder), I thought the episode was great. They seem to finnaly be done with setup and we are starting to have some mystery, schemes and escalation. Everyone but Viserys seems to be up to something. I like that.

    Also, I never thought I would like a scene because of an awesome dress, but that was a great scene!
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  4. #324
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Sir Criston Cole is a bloody moron, how can anybody defend him really? He went from bad to worse because of his own stupidity and ego.

    The worst that could happen to him was getting fired for some petty reason the rejected princess could come up with because she certainly wouldn't confess to wanting to have a sex with him. Instead of honoring his oath he decided to bang a goddamn princess as he most likely feared he would lose his status.

    Then he can't live with the fate he brought on himself and decides to ruin her life? Rhaenyra has been groomed to become a queen for several years at that point, sure she is a powerhungry bitch but has anybody ever thought she might not want to dissappoint her father after all the years she tried to be seen by him? And when he get's rejected he can't stand being a manwhore? Something nobody would even bat an eye on if the roles were reversed.

    After of all of this, being full of spite, he potentially commits a suicide but get's lucky. However he is such a moron that he doesn't realise he will get played like a fiddle by another woman. He won't have a choice but to obey his queen.

    Lastly he ruins the party because he is so cunt-struck that everybody can see it. With that being said, murdering that guy was probably the most understandable thing he did. Again though, he knows he screwed up and yet he can't even kill himself in time. He will be Alicent's bitch for rest of his life now.

    He knew the risk and yet he couldn't help himself. Now he is surprised it came back to bite his ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by owbu View Post
    *snip*
    He will be saved by the queen, she knows the secret and she will make him her personal guard.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Sir Criston Cole is a bloody moron, how can anybody defend him really? He went from bad to worse because of his own stupidity and ego.

    The worst that could happen to him was getting fired for some petty reason the rejected princess could come up with because she certainly wouldn't confess to wanting to have a sex with him. Instead of honoring his oath he decided to bang a goddamn princess because he most likely feared he would lose his status.
    .
    Actually, the worst that could have happened is execution because of the reason you give.
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  6. #326
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Actually, the worst that could have happened is execution because of the reason you give.
    Rhaenyra can't say she banged him, it would ruin her life.

    I don't see for whatever reason he could be executed, up until that point he did everything textbook.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Rhaenyra can't say she banged him, it would ruin her life.

    I don't see for whatever reason he could be executed, up until that point he did everything textbook.
    Why would she say she banged him? She could say he raped her... Boom, done and dusted.

    And no one was there watching them? So how can "him doing everything by textbook" have any weight? It's not like they have forensics and a investigation with ruthless interviews trying to figure out the truth in court. A princess says a her guard did X the guard did X in this world. Unless there is a witness, which there was none.

    Saying he was in no danger except being "fired" is very naïve in this fantasy world as it has been portrayed.
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  8. #328
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Damn. Even when a woman makes her power play she robbed of her agency for a man. Cole is a mere lacky, not a competent one, but somehow stole the spotlight from Rhaenyra doing girl boss shit. Let the woman be a villain too.

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  9. #329
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Why would she say she banged him? She could say he raped her... Boom, done and dusted.

    And no one was there watching them? So how can "him doing everything by textbook" have any weight? It's not like they have forensics and a investigation with ruthless interviews trying to figure out the truth in court. A princess says a her guard did X the guard did X in this world. Unless there is a witness, which there was none.

    Saying he was in no danger except being "fired" is very naïve in this fantasy world as it has been portrayed.
    Can you imagine what shitstorm it would cause if she claimed such thing?

    Even if she said he raped her, no Lord would want her to be their wife and queen. Maidenhood is really important thing in Westeros.

    Yes, he would be executed but so would she lose her claim to the throne. Also having a member of Kingsguard raping a princess would lead to a massive upheaval within the Seven Kingdoms. None but Daemon perhaps would benefit from such situation, he thrives in chaos.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Can you imagine what shitstorm it would cause if she claimed such thing?

    Even if she said he raped her, no Lord would want her to be their wife and queen. Maidenhood is really important thing in Westeros.

    Yes, he would be executed but so would she lose her claim to the throne. Also having a member of Kingsguard raping a princess would lead to a massive upheaval within the Seven Kingdoms. None but Daemon perhaps would benefit from such situation, he thrives in chaos.
    I think the Valeryan marriage would still happen, since it's clearly already political and even Rhaenerys herself tells Laenor "We marry for political and then we fuck whomever we want, capiché?" And he agrees to it.
    Corlys wouldn't turn down the offer, since he wants that power + he knows his son is gay, he hopes he grows out of it sure, but he's smart enough to understand they are only married because of politics. Hell, it's his only focus tbh.

    Valerys already made it clear that she would have the throne regardless. He has gotten a male heir, but he STILL says the throne should go to her. Valerys love for Rhaenerys has been displayed a lot, even firing his hand because of allegations of her. In fact the child of Alicent and Rhaenerys fighting for the throne will be a future contention between the two. He will certainly defend her honor and tell others to deal with it because it wasn't her fault. It's a tragedy it happened and thus Criston will be swiftly executed, hell maybe even tortured first to display the severity of taking her maidenhood.

    I don't deny that other houses or the kingdom will be upset about it, but they are already upset she is an heir. As they've made clear that it will be an uproar when she's crowned for real.

    And in the end, it doesn't matter if it would destroy her.
    Criston is still in a position that's very dangerous for him regardless of what decision he makes.
    Would you make the same argument if the roles were reversed? I can't say I have seen any of it flies like "this guy have no power play over this girl because he would lose his reputation if it came out". And you think someone in that position will go "nah, they won't lie about this because it might ruin it for them, so I certainly won't be executed!". People in that position think of the here and now and what can happen to them if they refuse. Not several steps ahead if it's likely that they will or not. In the end, the threat is a possibility. So it's a threat. Especially in GoT times.


    But I think we will just continue to disagree. So I'll probably leave it at that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Damn. Even when a woman makes her power play she robbed of her agency for a man. Cole is a mere lacky, not a competent one, but somehow stole the spotlight from Rhaenyra doing girl boss shit. Let the woman be a villain too.
    It's GOT. The default stance should be "this character is a villain" tbh
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-21 at 09:07 AM.
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  11. #331
    So, the last episode.
    Sir Criston is a fool, for sure. There is a certain disbalance of positions between him and Slutnyra, but that's water under the bridge, as it was clear she was only using him due to:
    1. him being available
    2. having a crush on her
    3. being in a servant position to begin with

    Having said that, seeing Criston pummel that... redheaded backside mainstream headliner to death was a pleasant sight, if only so a fleeting one, but there are a few questions to ask:
    1. Why did he do that(especially that the books described this act in A LOT MORE sensible manner)
    2. why in Seven Hells did all the Kingsguard attending the feast do square root of nothing about him murdering a guy and walking away all the way to the Tree?
    3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?


    Also, the opening scene of the 11th killing his wife in a complete silence was so off
    Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?
    Last edited by Fortress of Arrogance; 2022-09-21 at 11:26 AM.

  12. #332
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    *snip*
    Depending on the timeline I do have my doubts the marriage would happen.

    We see Rhaenys dissatisfied with the decision of Laenor marrying Rhaenyra because she feels it threatens their family once Rhaynera's succession will be challenged. We know even though Corlys is indeed proud and ambitious man, he isn't dumb and does love his wife very much. If such story came out, I don't think Rhaenys would have much trouble persuading him to dismiss a marriage proposal.

    In truth, Velaryons don't really need this marriage. Their position is a strong one, having both the largest fleet and half of the living dragons, they make for a much better ally than a foe. Agreeing to a marriage while knowing this would make them look bad, like they are good with any leftovers the Targaryens throw at them. Also Viserys doesn't seem like a type to wage war over this.

  13. #333
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    Depending on the timeline I do have my doubts the marriage would happen.

    We see Rhaenys dissatisfied with the decision of Laenor marrying Rhaenyra because she feels it threatens their family once Rhaynera's succession will be challenged. We know even though Corlys is indeed proud and ambitious man, he isn't dumb and does love his wife very much. If such story came out, I don't think Rhaenys would have much trouble persuading him to dismiss a marriage proposal.

    In truth, Velaryons don't really need this marriage. Their position is a strong one, having both the largest fleet and half of the living dragons, they make for a much better ally than a foe. Agreeing to a marriage while knowing this would make them look bad, like they are good with any leftovers the Targaryens throw at them. Also Viserys doesn't seem like a type to wage war over this.
    IIRC it's already written by GRRM (book spoilers):
    She will marry Laenor, and after a while she will marry Daemon
    Last edited by MCMLXXXII; 2022-09-21 at 01:11 PM.

  14. #334
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    IIRC it's already written by GRRM (book spoilers):
    She will marry Laenor, and after a while she will marry Daemon
    I know, it was a 'what if' conversation I had with Kumorii. They are already married in the show anyway.

  15. #335
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    I know, it was a 'what if' conversation I had with Kumorii. They are already married in the show anyway.
    Ah okay, never mind me then, I will see myself out

  16. #336
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Ah okay, never mind me then, I will see myself out
    Nah, it's okay. Don't go anywhere...

  17. #337
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    Re: Episode 4 into 5 -

    Eh - I don't know - the whole Princess/Cole sex night is OFF as far as "logic" to me. And that, more than anything else in GoT shows/book series, just took me out of my immersion entirely.

    Because in that moment it just felt like we have two characters - one of which has been built up as at least a somewhat more thinking/awareness-oriented type of person (Princess) in her position and everything it means (at least to my perception so far in the show) -- break character and all world logic rules entirely in order to force plot for the sake of plot.

    And that ticked me off more than any of the actual 'real plot' happenings after the fact. It ticked me off because it makes no sense, to me, for either of these characters to be anywhere close to engaging in that sort of behavior 'blindly like horny teenagers' when that isn't what they are, or how they are portrayed in the rest of the episodes (so far).

    Because yea - this isn't just some two 18 year old peasants with no awareness of how the real world, or royalty, works, just off getting their jollies "without thinking about it." Bullshit - makes zippo sense - at all.

    The 20something year old (not a teenager) did actually pledge his life to this service and this position. Knows full well (as he states in ep: 5) what happens to him if he's caught having sex at all (much less boinking the princess), and without five minutes of deliberation or discussion with the female he's about to give it all up for - decides "yeah sure let's do this."

    The 18 year old who has been raised IN court intrigue, as a royal, and as the next leader of Westeros. Also knows full well what happens to her, AND to Him, if they get caught having sex. Is a girl who has, in every episode up until now, been abhorrently against being forced to have a child for any reason due to her fear and BELIEF that she'll be killed by childbirth. Also decides, because she got horny (? I guess), to ignore all of that and boink her guard - also without five minutes of discussion about all of the reality they are dealing with in this act, with the guy.

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Not for one minute. None of that makes any sense, at all, AS presented. No idea if the book presented it better, I never read this book - though I have read all the other GOT books and not once in those have I ever been brought out of my immersion so immediately by any characters' decisions or behavior as I was with these scenes. (I was with the season 7/8 of the last series but never with the books like this.)

    If there had been a few minutes of scenes in other episodes setting this up - I could have bought it I think. If Cole had been given a few minutes of dialogue with another Guard, or his Priest, or ANYONE about being overly fond of his ward or developing feels or the dangers of messing with royal women. Or A scene with the Princess where he asks her about how 'serious' she is about wanting to be free/leave it all behind, etc. Hell, even a scene where he's shyly flirting with her to see how she responds - or a lingering touch here and there and they exchange glances. I don't know - ANYTHING - to indicate his mindset before this night about Her and his Vows - it would have made this 'work' more believably.

    A few scenes lasting a few minutes with the Princess offering the same build up - of her trying to flirt with ANYONE, of her expressing any interest in any sort of sexuality (outside of wanting to choose for herself/freedom or dying in childbirth), of her having 'taboo discussions' with other ladies in waiting and/or even her Guard himself. Even her wistfully staring out the window at some cute guy (you know, actual 18 year old/teenager behavior) to let you know that she's exploring/curious. In a single five second scene at the wedding you know the young Valerian teenage princess is INTERESTED in Daemon across a table. But she gets none of that, either.

    There's no build up here that either of these individuals are, at all, in this sort of headspace or could make such a stupid, possibly fatal, decision. So to have no buildup to this "plot twist" and we're just suppose to buy into, without any real consideration for his own life or her own consideration for HER own life and pregnancy, they just "got horny and decided to screw it all - and screw each other!" Yeah..no... I call bad writing. At least in THIS particular situation in the plot - to me - they failed here. Wouldn't have been hard to set this up a bit better - but that's not what they chose to do.

    Hubby and I enjoying the rest of the show. Its not as strong as the original out of the gate, but we're still entertained enough to keep watching to see if it gets stronger. But if this is how they end up moving forward with other "setups" and plot twists, eh, we will see. I just wasn't impressed with THIS particular scene play out.

    Because I'm sorry but no, not everyone just forgets everything they know to have sex because they are horny and damn all the consequences. Not even 18-25 year olds. I can get that neither of these people are 'good characters', that part doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is throwing out all logic and other-character-development (they've had so far) for the sake of "stupid decision just because drama-twist is good for the plot." I hope that isn't what they continue to do with the writing, anyway.
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  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Re: Episode 4 into 5 -

    Eh - I don't know - the whole Princess/Cole sex night is OFF as far as "logic" to me. And that, more than anything else in GoT shows/book series, just took me out of my immersion entirely.

    Because in that moment it just felt like we have two characters - one of which has been built up as at least a somewhat more thinking/awareness-oriented type of person (Princess) in her position and everything it means (at least to my perception so far in the show) -- break character and all world logic rules entirely in order to force plot for the sake of plot.
    I don't think there's any logic intended to it. She's a teenager who was heavily intoxicated, very likely had just been sexually touched for the first time and exposed to extreme live sexual acts also likely for the first time. Then on top of it you have her uncle basically flaunting he as a man can do this whenever he pleases. When she knows her future is basically to be like Alicent and to have sex out of duty and not out of desire.

    I think that entire scene is to show you that even the most reasonable people can succumb to temptation in the right circumstances. Doing so is simply human.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    3. why did the redheaded guy approach him in the first place?
    I'm guessing he wanted to be friends with him. If the 4 of them were going to go on with this plan, it makes sense they get to know each other and be on good terms.

    Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Also also, starting a feast without the queen? Also also also, queen entering mid-Speech made by the king? and not receiving a sever scold and a reprimand? What?
    They did note it was odd she was absent, but the wedding isn't about her. She's not even the princess' mother.

    The king isn't one to have a firm hand, he's slow and eager to appease people. Reprimanding her would have just make a bigger scene out of it than it already was.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I'm guessing he wanted to be friends with him. If the 4 of them were going to go on with this plan, it makes sense they get to know each other and be on good terms.

    Of course, this was the wrong thing to do with Criston, but the redhead probbably thought Criston and Rhaenyra were like him and Laenar.
    "Hey buddy, you don't know me but we'll be pals from now on. Just fyi I know your little secret that will have you gelded, tortured and killed if it ever comes out. Cya tomorrow?"

    What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

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