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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's a catch-up mechanism. They're making it easier to jump into Ulduar for players who may be holding out on Classic until after it's released.

    I must be one of the very few who are actually looking forward to Naxxramas and Sarth 3D.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I must be one of the very few who are actually looking forward to Naxxramas and Sarth 3D.
    Naxx will get boring quickly once people realize the only thing that's hard about it are Undying/Immortal runs. That was the case when it was new and I imagine it won't be much different in Classic. I liked Malygos and Sarth 3D but they were kind of one-and-done type raids. Naxx is the meat and potatoes of T7 and I personally don't have a whole lot of nostalgia for it.

  3. #23
    I mean, they teased H+ and so here it is. I don't see it being popular unless the reward substantially outweighs the extra time and risk of wipes in dungeons everybody remembers for being places to do skate tricks.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    I mean, they teased H+ and so here it is. I don't see it being popular unless the reward substantially outweighs the extra time and risk of wipes in dungeons everybody remembers for being places to do skate tricks.
    It'll be more accessible than having to do outdated raids just to get caught up for Ulduar.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It'll be more accessible than having to do outdated raids just to get caught up for Ulduar.
    Couldn't people just grind trad heroics for relevant emblems? Even if it technically takes longer, the state of flow and RL flexibility would be hard to beat.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Couldn't people just grind trad heroics for relevant emblems? Even if it technically takes longer, the state of flow and RL flexibility would be hard to beat.
    Badge gear would take significantly longer to gear up. I think Blizzard realizes a lot of players are holding out til Ulduar so this is their way of giving them an easier time gearing up.

  7. #27
    Sounds kinda interesting, but not sure how I feel about all these changes to a game that was already solid.

  8. #28
    Isn't this a retail idea??? didn't some moron over at blizzard say if you wanted retail features play retail?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    First Tier of Wrath is widely regarded as very bad because naxx is a way to easy rehash and malygos a bad fight. Only sartharion 3 drakes is good, but thats only one boss.

    Ulduar is widely regarded as one of the greatest raids ever made, has a lot of bosses and hardmodes. Thats a lot of content that you want to keep live as long as possible.

    ToC Tier is again widely considered to be a very poor tier, and additionally a short one. In original wotlk, they clipped the life time of ulduar by releasing ToC early and having normal mode ToC have better loot.

    So it makes perfect sense to reduce the T7 and T9 and increase T8 lifetime and change ilvls. It makes no sense to release the "original way", when its obviously flawed, as "classic" is not a 1:1 unchanged copy anyway (because we play the final patch, for example).
    These are great examples of why "widely regarded" is a poor metric.

    Naxx was easy, yes, but undying/immortal/glory runs were fun. Malygos was not a bad fight, it just had a final phase that a lot of people didn't like because, lol, vehicles. Sartharion 3D 10-man was understood to be one of the most poorly tuned fights in the expansion, up until the point it became burnable (skipping most of the hard mode mechanics by killing it quickly).

    ToC was considered a poor tier, but that was largely because, 1, it took place in a single (or two) room, 2, because it was short (because it didn't have any trash, which, hilariously, is something that has been widely requested as a change in following expansions), and 3, because it followed the absolutely fantastic Ulduar.

    ToGC is one of my favorite raids. The fights are unique and enjoyable, the raid is short and quick to clear once on farm status, and the loot made going back to Ulduar25 hard modes much more approachable for some of the guilds that were being held back.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    These are great examples of why "widely regarded" is a poor metric.

    Naxx was easy, yes, but undying/immortal/glory runs were fun. Malygos was not a bad fight, it just had a final phase that a lot of people didn't like because, lol, vehicles. Sartharion 3D 10-man was understood to be one of the most poorly tuned fights in the expansion, up until the point it became burnable (skipping most of the hard mode mechanics by killing it quickly).

    ToC was considered a poor tier, but that was largely because, 1, it took place in a single (or two) room, 2, because it was short (because it didn't have any trash, which, hilariously, is something that has been widely requested as a change in following expansions), and 3, because it followed the absolutely fantastic Ulduar.

    ToGC is one of my favorite raids. The fights are unique and enjoyable, the raid is short and quick to clear once on farm status, and the loot made going back to Ulduar25 hard modes much more approachable for some of the guilds that were being held back.
    The Ulduar HMs dropped loot that was worse than ToC Normal. If your guild was being held back in Ulduar HMs because you didn't have gear from the next Tier then... you probably weren't the intended audience for Ulduar HMs in the first place.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Stockers View Post
    Absolutely dreadful decision.
    Why is it dreadful? It literally gives old Ulduar gear that was previously near worthless have more value

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    Isn't this a retail idea??? didn't some moron over at blizzard say if you wanted retail features play retail?
    theres a very big difference between fundamentally changing the fabric of what classic is, and is supposed to represent, and changing obviously dreadful design that we experienced in the past with the benefit of our hindsight.

    It is unanimously accepted that Ulduar lacked any value once ToC came out, and Blizzard literally has data to back up that Ulduar was under explored by the community in terms of completion. They're making a direct change to fix something that both the community and the data shows was badly designed.

    Furthermore, once WoTLK is over, everything is on the table, Blizzard has to decide whether they want to do Cata with heavy changes just like what they're doing here with the Ulduar gear or to go a completely different direction. I fail to see how this is in any way a negative decision, and it paves the way for the team to start looking at what to change in future xpacs

  12. #32
    In a weird way this is like reverse engineered titan-forging. Not really, because it's deterministic and farmable, but the "endlessly iterated ilevel versions of the same item" way.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo94 View Post
    Why is it dreadful? It literally gives old Ulduar gear that was previously near worthless have more value

    - - - Updated - - -



    theres a very big difference between fundamentally changing the fabric of what classic is, and is supposed to represent, and changing obviously dreadful design that we experienced in the past with the benefit of our hindsight.

    It is unanimously accepted that Ulduar lacked any value once ToC came out, and Blizzard literally has data to back up that Ulduar was under explored by the community in terms of completion. They're making a direct change to fix something that both the community and the data shows was badly designed.

    Furthermore, once WoTLK is over, everything is on the table, Blizzard has to decide whether they want to do Cata with heavy changes just like what they're doing here with the Ulduar gear or to go a completely different direction. I fail to see how this is in any way a negative decision, and it paves the way for the team to start looking at what to change in future xpacs
    right no hypocrisy in this decision at all, RDF LK feature is bad, but this new Idea from retail is good.... is there really any point in calling it LK classic at this point?

    RDF would have kept me playing much longer than any other change (and did the first time around) if not for RDF and alts I would have left after ICC.
    Last edited by Dadwen; 2022-09-22 at 02:35 AM.

  14. #34
    Will it help if we go ahead and approach this as Kris Zierhut's professional midlife crisis? Maybe someone can sit the guy down and suggest que sera sera?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    ToGC is one of my favorite raids.
    Mine, too. Also, most players were fine with it. Blizzard just forgot to follow its own dicta about forums and listened to a tiny subset of very online players.

  15. #35
    So what does this actually mean for endgame? The old way in Retail Wrath was hit 80, do heroics for previous tier gear, then jump into current tier raid. Does this make it so doing Naxx when say ICC is the current content would actually be a viable way of gearing?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Will it help if we go ahead and approach this as Kris Zierhut's professional midlife crisis? Maybe someone can sit the guy down and suggest que sera sera?

    Mine, too. Also, most players were fine with it. Blizzard just forgot to follow its own dicta about forums and listened to a tiny subset of very online players.
    People were fine with it because they got free epics better than Ulduar and made them feel good at the game.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by varren View Post
    So what does this actually mean for endgame? The old way in Retail Wrath was hit 80, do heroics for previous tier gear, then jump into current tier raid. Does this make it so doing Naxx when say ICC is the current content would actually be a viable way of gearing?
    indeed but not just that, heroics will be relevant for catch up gearing throughout the entire expansion

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadwen View Post
    right no hypocrisy in this decision at all, RDF LK feature is bad, but this new Idea from retail is good.... is there really any point in calling it LK classic at this point?

    RDF would have kept me playing much longer than any other change (and did the first time around) if not for RDF and alts I would have left after ICC.
    I mean without trying to sound like im being a dick (because its hard to convey emotion over text) but its really simple lol.

    They are game devs, its their job to weigh up decisions that they think will make the experience as good as possible.

    They believe, rightly or wrongly that RDF damages the social/exploration/open world fabric of WoW. I can see both sides here.

    They also believe the gearing change has essentially no negative side, and only positives to offer in the experience. I also agree with their logic here.

    And thats it. You're holding onto tags like 'Classic' too strongly. I personally dont want an EXACT replica, Id much rather have the experience and loops left the same, but with obvious easy hindsight improvements.

  19. #39
    Hmm…I don’t think this will be as bad as people think it is because the hardcore will already be decked out anyway, and it might even be good for casuals as getting a Naxx 25 together after Ulduar was impossible, but a 10 is much more manageable.

    I will agree that heroics were a joke in high end gear.

    ….all that being said…it’s an awful big change for a game catering to nostalgia. And although I don’t mind as much, some nochanges folks are going to rage super hard at the idea of mytheroic+.
    Raid bosses will always be very similar so long as encounter design requires DPS to always be pumping 100%.

  20. #40
    So.... we get this sh*tfest, but we can't get LFD for easier lvling?!?!?!?!?!?!

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