[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Nyel]

That's like saying the entire concept of the Demon Hunter class is Double Jump....

No, it's not. Because double jump is a completely irrelevant part of Demon Hunter gameplay, it's just fluff. Empowered skills are the core concept of the class. Even Blizzard is advertising it like that, you might check the Evoker preview page. Empowered got its own section whereas they don't lose a single word on Evoker's mobility.

[Rageonit]

And the fact of the matter that the Evokers "okay" mobility is just a weak band-aid to an issue that shouldn't even exist in the first place: having only 25y range for their spells. Having only little above 60% of the effective range of a healer.

The way radius works, they actually cover only 39% of the ground a healer with 40 yd range can cover. So for example for spread mechanics, you have 61% less space to spread while still trying to stay in range of heals. It begs a question: why even take an Evoker, if it would make it so much more difficult to organize the raid? Currently, there's no reason to. Automaticjak (the guy from the video) understands it very well; that's why he says the Evoker will play terribly on a spread fight. He thinks that's more due to lack of spread healing skills and less to range, but here's the thing: even if you get a spread healing type of skill, if it's 25 yd range, the problem remains. So in the end, the Evoker HAS TO get at least something with 40 yd range, otherwise he's screwed. You could argue at least the ST heals and dispells should be 40 yds.

Also, mobility does fuck all in situations where you need to spread and stay in place for a certain amount of time (and from history, we know plenty of mechanics like that). The whole talk about "mobility balancing Evoker's range" (which is bullcrap, because no matter the mobility, you always loose time vs other healers to get in range, so even in perfect conditions - no obstacles during the encounter - you're at a disadvantage) doesn't even account for the fact that more often than not, fights have mechanics that prevent you from moving to certain places or even moving at all. And we are being told those mechanics won't exist anymore, because Evoker. Okay, fam. Lets wait and see.

[Nyel]

And no other class has its level of mobility.

Several other classes do, as been already said by experts (not us here in this thread, but top tier players). Evoker is not the most mobile class in the game. A Restoration Druid is as mobile (if not more) and can cast almost all of their skills during movement phases. An Evoker is only mobile when using Hover and even then it cannot cast its most important skills during movement. Druids easily beat out Evokers when it comes to being effective while being mobile. The same can be said about Monks. Evoker is more mobile than Holy Priest, Holy Paladin and Restoration Shaman, but it definitely does not beat Monk and Druid.

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I don't think you understood what I'm saying. On Beta turn on friendly nameplates, larger nameplates, turn on Mouseover cast. This is VERY different from traditional healing of using party frames. Your eyes are on the middle of the screen as opposed to rolling back and forth between a grid and enemy action. It's easier to play this way because Evoker is expected to move and Breath or Blossom. I mentioned other games because it works the same way (should've also mentioned Wildstar) where you can move while casting and where most spells are frontal cone telegraphs.

It's not ideal gameplay for some players, but neither is playing Holy Paladin or Disc Priest and that's okay. And being further than 25yds away as healer has never been ideal for your party, you bring them down that way. They're listening to player feedback on action combat, hence why I also mentioned the new 'Action Targeting' under options. This is the closest we'll get to non-Tab targeting gameplay.

Non tab-targeting gameplay is heavily relying on movement where even casters can cast spells during movement. Evoker only can do that when using a specific skill and even then they cannot cast their most important spells because they are not affected by that specific skill.

Regarding the bold part: uhm. That's mostly not on the healer's part anyway. What you mention are specific, more stacked like boss fights in raids. You have zero control over where ranged players are placing themselves during a fight, which makes this 25 yard range argument pretty futile. At the end of the day a 40 yard range will always be better than a 25 yard range. Always. As a 40y healer you can easily place yourselves in the middle of two damage dealers that are 80 yard apart from each other and heal them without a problem. As an Evoker you simply cannot do that.

[Rageonit]

If you’re moving at 70% increased movement speed, how long do you seriously think it would take to acquire a target?

Here's a math riddle, genious. So there are two healers standing next to eachother in the raid. One is an Evoker, the other is any other healer with 40 yd range. They are standing exactly in the middle of the raid, to make the best use of their range. The raid is spread in 25 yds range, so both healers can heal everyone.
Now, due to certain boss mechanic, one of the DPS has to move 20 yards away (lets say, to carry away some kind of AoE that does damage based on proximity to other players, and to the player in question). That player will need spot healing as soon as the AoE explosion goes off.

Now the riddle: who gets to that player first? Just for clarity, after moving away from the raid, the player is standing 45 yards away from both healers. So who is faster:
- a monk with torpedo (crossing 5 yards), or an evoker with hover (crossing 20 yards)?
- a shaman with ghost wolf (5 yds) or the evoker with hover (20 yds)?
- a druid with any kind of sprint (5 yds) or the evoker with hover (20 yds)?
- any healer using ZERO movement speed abilities (5 yds) or an evoker with 70% speed buff (20 yds)?
No dodging the question. Simply answer who will be faster to reach the target.

[8bithamster]

You can increase it to six.



So what.




Okay, replace with Reversion, which can get 2 charges.



Again, so what.



Echo, Living Flame, Reversion, Echo, Reversion.

Congrats! You got 20% off the cast time of your next Empower ability.



And no other class has its level of mobility.



They can cast several spells while moving.



So you're saying that a target never goes out of range for Priests, Shaman, Druids, etc?



That's great, but we're talking about raids here, so yeah, it is relevant.



You know how DF raids are going to work better than Blizzard?

No other class has this mobility? Maybe stop playing classic and play retail where druids, monks have same mobility and guess what? More versatile and better ranged heals!

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Here's a math riddle, genious. So there are two healers standing next to eachother in the raid. One is an Evoker, the other is any other healer with 40 yd range. They are standing exactly in the middle of the raid, to make the best use of their range. The raid is spread in 25 yds range, so both healers can heal everyone.
Now, due to certain boss mechanic, one of the DPS has to move 20 yards away (lets say, to carry away some kind of AoE that does damage based on proximity to other players, and to the player in question). That player will need spot healing as soon as the AoE explosion goes off.

Now the riddle: who gets to that player first? Just for clarity, after moving away from the raid, the player is standing 45 yards away from both healers. So who is faster:
- a monk with torpedo (crossing 5 yards), or an evoker with hover (crossing 20 yards)?
- a shaman with ghost wolf (5 yds) or the evoker with hover (20 yds)?
- a druid with any kind of sprint (5 yds) or the evoker with hover (20 yds)?
- any healer using ZERO movement speed abilities (5 yds) or an evoker with 70% speed buff (20 yds)?
No dodging the question. Simply answer who will be faster to reach the target.

Hell just twist it to "omg that's not realistic and the healers should perfectly know where everyone is and will ever go"

[Rageonit]

Hell just twist it to "omg that's not realistic and the healers should perfectly know where everyone is and will ever go"

Because in the exemplary scenario the raid is spread 25 yards AROUND both healers (that's most efficient in spread scenarios to stay in range of heals), IF the Evoker moves pre-emptively to where the affected player will be, he will move out of range of part of the raid that may be taking other environmental damage. Also, if he moves pre-emptively, he will get hit by the explosion, which may turn out to be fatal. So he can't move before the explosion; he has to wait for that to go off. Then both healers start moving.

(If anything, he will ask me to show him a mechanic like that in DF; that's really all he can do to "defend" Evoker's range.)

[Nyel]

By the way - which I didn't know beforehand - Druid healers have a 45 yard range in Dragonflight. And they have the most instant casts of any healer spec and next to Monk they are by far the most mobile healer.

[Gorsameth]

So you're saying that a target never goes out of range for Priests, Shaman, Druids, etc?

Boss tactics are designed around 40y range. unless mechanics specifically force you to stand further apart the whole idea is to have raid positions that ensure your healers are always in range of who they need to heal.

And if people do run out of range its usually to drop of some large AoE thing that you don't want in the raid hitting multiple people so the Evoker really doesn't want to zip over there and eat said AoE aswell.


I seriously question if you have ever raid healed at all.

(and before you comment that guilds could devise different tactics, why should they when they can just not bring an Evoker)

[Teriz]

Tiger's Lust CD is 30 second, while Hover is 35 seconds. So in the time you do one Hover, you can do 2 TGs.

Via talents, Hover can gain an additional charge, 4 additional seconds uptime, and 70% movement speed for the first 4 seconds.

So you can cast Hover twice in the span of a single Tiger’s lust, and Hover lasts almost twice as long (10 seconds vs 6 seconds).

Traveling much faster than the Evoker ever could. And 10 yards is more than enough to get out of void zones, or get close enough to a player to heal them.

Verdant Embrace is 25 yards.

Because there is no retort. It's instant travel on a single GCD. Up to 30y too, if memory serves.

Its also slow, cumbersome, and not worth mentioning because it’s something you wouldn’t be using in a raid environment as a healer.

Wrong. I'm saying that the evoker is going to be out of range of their targets much, much more often than a priest or shaman would. Especially if you're suddenly going away from the rest of your targets while "flying" to be right next to one.

You would be if you didn’t have a variety of movement tools to place you in range.

Except that you still need to be in range of the target to be able to "instantly zip to them". So you and the "turret healer" will both have to move to get in range. But, again, with 25y vs 40y range, the evoker will end up out of range many times more often than a priest or monk healer would.

Again, if you’re consistently moving more quickly than everyone else, you should have no issue bringing your targets into range.

The topic at hand is the discussion of the evoker's preservation spec, which can be used in raids, dungeons, outside world, arenas and battlegrounds. So my points are valid. And even if we dismiss PvP in its entirety, the evoker's "rescue" ability still loses to the priest "heal" ability, as demonstrated.

Nope, we’re talking about raids here. The PvP discussion is in another thread.

I don't have to wait. Because it's a fact that the evoker doesn't fit a good deal of raid mechanics currently in the game. And to make the class work, Blizzard is either going to have to bite the bullet and increase their healing range to at least 35y, or limit themselves on which raid mechanics to use.

Uh, it doesn’t have to be competitive in current raid mechanics, it has to be competitive in the upcoming raid mechanics.

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Several other classes do, as been already said by experts (not us here in this thread, but top tier players). Evoker is not the most mobile class in the game. A Restoration Druid is as mobile (if not more) and can cast almost all of their skills during movement phases. An Evoker is only mobile when using Hover and even then it cannot cast its most important skills during movement. Druids easily beat out Evokers when it comes to being effective while being mobile. The same can be said about Monks. Evoker is more mobile than Holy Priest, Holy Paladin and Restoration Shaman, but it definitely does not beat Monk and Druid.

Please explain how a Druid or Monk healer is more mobile than an Presentation Evoker.

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No other class has this mobility? Maybe stop playing classic and play retail where druids, monks have same mobility and guess what? More versatile and better ranged heals!

Yeah, Druids and Monks don’t have the same level of mobility.

[Nyel]

1. Again, if you’re consistently moving more quickly than everyone else, you should have no issue bringing your targets into range.

2. Uh, it doesn’t have to be competitive in current raid mechanics, it has to be competitive in the upcoming raid mechanics.

3. Please explain how a Druid or Monk healer is more mobile than an Presentation Evoker.

1. You still don't get it. The situation is not moving (other healers) vs. faster moving (Evoker), it's the need to move (Evoker) vs. no need to move (other healers).

2. It has, fated raids.

3. This was already discussed multiple times in this thread, you even quoted a comment that explained this.

[Teriz]

No, it's not. Because double jump is a completely irrelevant part of Demon Hunter gameplay, it's just fluff. Empowered skills are the core concept of the class. Even Blizzard is advertising it like that, you might check the Evoker preview page. Empowered got its own section whereas they don't lose a single word on Evoker's mobility.

Fair enough, but again, you don’t need to fully charge the empower spells to get an effect. That grants you the flexibility of how long you want to be rooted casting a spell.

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1. You still don't get it. The situation is not moving (other healers) vs. faster moving (Evoker), it's the need to move (Evoker) vs. no need to move (other healers).

And the spec has several tools to accomplish that goal.

2. It has, fated raids.

Those are SL raids. I’m talking about DF raids.

3. This was already discussed multiple times in this thread, you even quoted a comment that explained this.

Where?

[Rageonit]

And the spec has several tools to accomplish that goal.

What goal? Getting in range while loosing time vs all other healers? I'm assuming you still work on the solution of my little riddle above. Can't wait for it.

[Teriz]

What goal? Getting in range while loosing time vs all other healers?

Which is potentially compensated for by having generally stronger healing spells. Like Echo base healing for 200% spellpower on a 1.5 s cast, and leaving behind a 15s buff that can replicate another healing spell on the target.

I'm assuming you still work on the solution of my little riddle above. Can't wait for it.

Not a fan of riddles, sorry.

[Rageonit]

Not a fan of riddles, sorry.

Do you find that one particularly difficult to answer?

[Teriz]

So in the latest patch, Blizzard stealth nerfed Preservation healing across the board. In some cases reducing healing by as much as 40%. I wonder whats going to happen next.

[Rageonit]

So in the latest patch, Blizzard stealth nerfed Preservation healing across the board. In some cases reducing healing by as much as 40%. I wonder whats going to happen next.

If you think that Evoker had stronger potential HPS to offset for its range, then you're wrong. It would make it OP - and pretty much mandatory - on stacked fights. Overall, both the range and differences in potential HPS would make it a nightmare to balance. So no, Evoker won't be given more healing with reduced range, if that's your line of thinking.
How's that riddle going? Did I make it too difficult?

[Teriz]

If you think that Evoker had stronger potential HPS to offset for its range, then you're wrong. It would make it OP - and pretty much mandatory - on stacked fights. Overall, both the range and differences in potential HPS would make it a nightmare to balance. So no, Evoker won't be given more healing with reduced range, if that's your line of thinking.

Uh, we just had (Yesterday) Preservation Evoker with 430% spellpower (Formerly Rescue, now Verdant Embrace) healing on an instant spell, and 200% spellpower healing on a 1.5s casting spell that would repeat other heals for 15 seconds (Echo). So again, we were already looking at stupidly strong heals. Now we're looking at 258% on VE and 120% on Echo. Those are significant nerfs.

I wonder what prompted the change.

Also a new class being OP is par the course in WoW.

[Rageonit]

Also a new class being OP is par the course in WoW.

You argued that higher heal values were intentional to offset for lower range. And now you claim it's because new classes are usually OP...? Make up your mind.

[Nyel]

Uh, we just had (Yesterday) Preservation Evoker with 430% spellpower (Formerly Rescue, now Verdant Embrace) healing on an instant spell, and 200% spellpower healing on a 1.5s casting spell that would repeat other heals for 15 seconds (Echo). So again, we were already looking at stupidly strong heals. Now we're looking at 258% on VE and 120% on Echo. Those are significant nerfs.

Echo itself is a weak healing spell, it requires the replicated spell to actually do something, which is still two GCDs for a heal other classes can cover with one. Living Flame is a terrible healing skill by itself. Rescue is super strong, but bound to a lengthy cooldown and is always putting you at risk to land in a dangerous or fatal situation due to the attached repositioning. For example, Word of Glory, the Holy Paladin counterpart to Echo, is a 315% heal and on top of that its instant. And has several further implications and interactions in the talent tree.

None of the Evoker heals besides Rescue (lengthy cooldown) and Dream Breath are particularly strong or stronger than heals by classes that cover a 40 (or even 45) yard range.

[Rageonit]

Living Flame is a terrible healing skill by itself.

It was nerfed in this build - from 275% sp to 165% sp. It's difficult to understand where is this going right now; it makes this spell much, much worse compared to things like Healing Wave, Heal, Holy Light etc.