Everything BOP should be BOA

[Tentim]

While I understand some convenience is nice, I dont understand the desire to have all alts instantly match the main for effectiveness without having to actually play them. Isn't the point of an alt to have more to do? If you dont have time or dont want to play on alts, don't make alts.



If all gear was BOA, why wouldn't you? You could raid for your main's gear 10 times per lockout.

If you play the game at higher difficulties it isn't fun to farm low difficulties.

A mythic 20 is a guaranteed success for me with a guild group of mythic 0 geared alts.

There is this perception on the lower end that wow is a game that relies on grinding gear but that hasn't really been true since tbc.

If you have the ability to play at higher levels you really feel the tedium of heroic and low level mythic plus. It's why people dispise alternative power systems.

[deenman]

They tried and it failed spectacularly, its called garrison, you can go visit your house now, anytime you want.
The rest of us? We don't want housing..

oh boy,not this bullshit take,garrison is nothing like what actual housing would be,housing is like transmog,garrison was a must do chore for progression get over yourself and your troll takes

[OMGTwitchTV]

Honestly this ties in with the silent "What are our accounts' characters to eachother?" question that most refuse to entertain.

Are they secret buddies? Alter egos? Then this makes sense.
Are they nothing to eachother? Then current account-wide stuff doesn't make either.
So it's something between those extremes, my personal headcanon is that they are sort of like goof pen pals or something of the like; they can never share adventures and are each very different, but politics cannot intrude upon their friendship, and they happily share what they don't need between one another.

That's why I would never share rep. Too much of a stretch. However, if you examine it from the broad overview, "Oh yeah, I know them really well. They've worked with me on more than one occasion against (insert big bad here) and I don't mind helping them out." It would rival the likes of a guildie helping another guildie, especially if both characters are in the same guild which adds up.

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The thing is that once you are geared out and have nothing left to raid, there's not much left to do beside /dance on top of a mailbox.

Gearing up is the entire purpose of WoW, so being able to hand off BoP pieces of loot to alts would make you play those alts less, not more.

True, which is why in raids, a mage will never get a perfect piece for a paladin or a hunter, and vice versa. However, if you could share currency, you could at least craft gear from the BoP crafting materials that are simply withering away on your main/alt. It's a small step to help your alts, not the one stop shop to gear them. No different really than simply buying a bunch of 304 gear in the AH, except now you are helping yourself a bit.

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There is absolutely a downside to this. Say goodbye to 90% of the population ever trading anything to you again from raid/dungeon drops, because "I'm gonna sent it to my xxx alt."

Now, if it was BoA rep gear you could buy from rep vendors and such on your main and then send to an alt, I'd be fine with that. Because you aren't taking something from someone else. Yes, it was your drop in the raid/dungeon, but if you're part of a progression group, you don't want people keeping gear for alts they'll play once a month or something when it would be more beneficial for your raid/M+ team.

I don't recall the last time something dropped in a raid I could not use considering my spec and loot table. As far as dungeons, say hello to actually giving said item to your own alt and not watching the person who got the drop simply vendor it since they cannot use it. And, to be fair, aside from some M+15s with friends (who would trade), any other group I get into, especially LFR, no one even talks let alone trades.

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It's common problem. Making rewards account-wide would require making time-gated CDs account-wide and it would reduce amount of content available. Alts are still intended to be "Doing the same from scratch" thing for players, for whom playing on one character isn't enough. This is controversial. From one POV it's right game design. From another POV alts aren't used for getting extra content only. In many cases they're used to increase diversity of game. And long-term grinds not being account-wide kill such diversity, because player just can't switch to another character due to it being incomplete, while it's impossible to catch up within reasonable time frame. Yeah, catching-up - was Blizzards' way of dealing with this problem in the past. Way too long grinds (like Anima grind for example) no longer work this way. This makes game alt-unfriendly.

I find in SWTOR I am more likely to play alts simply because my main has the currency needed to buy the shell gear and when the "enhancements" drop, I can simply toss them into my legacy bank for said alt. I am likely not the only person discouraged playing alts since they now need to have the same ilvl as the main who would simply be sitting on items they could have shared, but instead had to vendor as useless junk.

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Where does this mindset stop? Should leveling one class to level 70 automatically make all your other characters level 70?

Absolutely not. But if I am grinding old content for mogs, and the BoP drops help my level 33 alt, they could benefit slightly from a better piece of gear to keep leveling with. Your argument is a bit hyperbolic and my idea "stopped" at the idea of sharing things that could be used, instead of vendored. If I want a boost, I will pop into the shop and buy one since Blizz would never give up on that cash cow

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I would prefer not obtaining priest loot on my warrior at all.

I'm curious where each person draws their line though. Like obviously nobody thinks you should be able to swap races on the fly, or classes, but like, with shared progress like that, do you think character levels should be account bound? It just waters the game down in my opinion. Like I'd be perfectly happy permanently locked into a single specialization, so long as i could queue as a mostly viable damage dealer in all specs. Mounts, toys, and transmog being account wide is weird enough imho.

Why have other characters at all of you dont want to progress as them?

It's not a lack of interest in progressing them. But once in awhile it might be nice to give them a single item that could come in handy. I am gold capped on 22 characters, so if I could stop vendoring and share with alts, it would give me more use and enjoyment of actually looting the body on my main

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I'm not sure how this would even work?

If I run a mythic on my warrior and a sword drops, unless I have a sword using alt, it really doesn't help that its BOA.

Frankly, I would replace most drops except raid drops with a bind on account currency so folks can just buy gear. I think we're all grown up enough to save and plan for the things we want.

And that could work too. Leave Mythic dungeon and raid gear as BoP and convert all of the things that no longer matter. Like when my mage loots a shield in Wrath or Panda content, and I have not yet collected the appearance, or maybe my alt is only level 31 and could use it. People seem to be panicked by the concept like having alts receive treats would somehow ruin their street cred playing wow. It's a game, and we are not top 1%ers. No one cares what we do, or what we've done... except us.

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"Oh shit my BIS sword just dropped and no one here is my class sick!"
*Literally EVERYONE in the raid rolls need*
"i need it for my paladin alt who is currently level 12, but i will totally have max level by next week".

I have not seen a Need vs Greed roll system since Pandaland, maybe even cata. Personal loot tables saw to that. Even in old content running with friends, there is no roll system. This is why the Trade option is still a thing.

[Mardux]

yeah, i would pay another 5 bucks per month, to not grind that leveling shit for 12 classes every xpac, tbh.

and i say this as someone that liked alt leveling much… in the first 2-3 xpacs. but after 17 years of uninterrupted wow sub… not so much.

If you dislike it so much, why keep doing it?

[Mysterymask]

I think the issue really boils down to "yes it works in other games but this is wow"

To make an example I'll throw Yu-Gi-Oh into the ring. Right now that games meta is a very fast game of solitaire where someone can legit dump half their deck on the field turn 1. For a lot of older folks who didn't keep up they see this look confused and keeps them away. The ones who've been playing the entire time like it this way and don't plan on letting it change.

For wow it's the same thing since SWOTR, ESO, Guild Wars 2 the system works cause the community isnt like wows where if it's optimal you better do it. This is a community if getting their BIS legit means shooting themselves in the foot they are already asking for another clip or another foot.

Don't believe me? Take the MOP dailies, Blizzard sold it as "we have a ton and if you don't wanna do a few in a day you don't have to" THEY PRACTICALLY SCREAMED DONT DO EVERY DAILY EVERY DAY! What did y'all do..every daily every day

[OMGTwitchTV]

If you dislike it so much, why keep doing it?

It doesn't always lead back to dislike, but rather a need for change and improvements often save a game after two decades. Sometimes you enjoy the game so much, you just hold out hope for that little extra.

[tomten]

oh boy,not this bullshit take,garrison is nothing like what actual housing would be,housing is like transmog,garrison was a must do chore for progression get over yourself and your troll takes

What would be different? Do you think housing would be in the open world and not instanced?
You'll hide everyone from the world in an MMO and it'll functionally be garrision v2.0.
And even if you could decorate/customize it (like you could with the garrison) who's gonna see it besides you?
What is the incentive for all those resources and developing time needed for such a huge undertaking?
What makes you think it would not be a chore in this new version? You can't just unlock everything for "free"?
What would be so revolutionizing about your version of housing? And why would it make wow such a good/better game?

Transmog is something everyone see's, so it has appeal for a portion of the playerbase, its your character identity.
Housing is not something everyone sees, at best? You'll invite some friends once or twice and its over. Why would people constantly come to your house and not their own?

Instead of calling me a troll, sell it, show why its so needed and why wow is such a shit game without it because I dont see it, not even a little bit.
I see garrison 2.0 and something that will be equally hated but im open to be proven wrong. Show me

[FelPlague]

I have not seen a Need vs Greed roll system since Pandaland, maybe even cata. Personal loot tables saw to that. Even in old content running with friends, there is no roll system. This is why the Trade option is still a thing.

you... you know that is coming back in dragonflight right?

[Very Tired]

Honestly, yeah, for gear at least this addresses one of WoW's biggest problems, repeat work for playing alts. Gearing up already takes a hell of a lot of work, and the game doesn't make it any easier for your alts the second time through. A ton of people would love to play raid on different classes, but don't want to double than grind for that payoff.

Pretty much all modern MMO learned from WoW's mistake and designed there games away from this. With them you can pretty much do anything you want with a single toon, gameplay wise, with little to no need for alts.

[SaucyThighs]

You've got it all wrong, completely. The point of having different classes is to enjoy the game, remember? Its still a game that you're meant to enjoy, shocking, i know but thats still the main thing about wow or any other game.

This "committing" only exists in your own head, because thats how you feel like playing. Easy solution? Don't send gear to your alts and instead "develop" them any way you like WITHOUT telling the rest of us how to play or enjoy the game? That would be great, wouldn't it?

You deeming it a failure doesn't mean its a failure, again, most of us, play games to enjoy them, not have them as a 2nd job.
What burns you out? Is having to farm that gear, currency, rep, "whatever" to be able to play your alt... Thats the burn out... Not enjoying a dungeon or raid on that alt.

Again, you can play wow for whatever reason you want but remember, its A GAME NOT A FREAKING JOB... Let me play the game as I want and stop saying absolute things from your narrow, small, ignorant perspective.

I think the heart of his point is that having characters designed to be something you develop individually is an essential fun part of the game for him. There definitely can be other types of games and versions of WoW that are fun without that, but it's a different experience. I actually prefer the way he describes but I also love Overwatch, which has no commitment -- you can even swap heroes mid-game.

The rules of what you can and cannot do define the game itself. It's the structure that lets you make meaningful choices and have a specific journey. Chess would not be more fun if every piece could move everywhere. Hide and seek wouldn't be more fun if you knew where everyone is. In the same way, for many people, MMORPGs are exciting precisely because you develop a character over time and everything about it is a part of its unique identity. Being able to jump over that on alt partially contradicts that gameplay.

You can just not take advantage of the benefits but that wouldn't satisfy another essential MMORPG element (in the eyes of many), that is to experience a shared world with other players which means a shared ruleset. This is one of modern WoWs sorest points in Blizzards' attempt to cater to everyone. And so we end up with raid 4 difficulty levels, essentially fragmenting the playerbase and undermining that real, existing, shared world experience that people yearn for in an MMORPG. We just need everyone to have a game for them, with a playerbase that likes that type of game.

Also, maybe there is a best of both worlds. Maybe if WoW was a game where leveling and gearing up was much more engaging to a 2022 player from the beginning, then you would look forward to doing it on an alt and not want to, say, get it over with so you can be strong enough to do the content you actually like.

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Honestly, yeah, for gear at least this addresses one of WoW's biggest problems, repeat work for playing alts. Gearing up already takes a hell of a lot of work, and the game doesn't make it any easier for your alts the second time through. A ton of people would love to play raid on different classes, but don't want to double than grind for that payoff.

Pretty much all modern MMO learned from WoW's mistake and designed there games away from this. With them you can pretty much do anything you want with a single toon, gameplay wise, with little to no need for alts.

Gearing up doesn't take work... it just takes playing the game, which I do for fun. 5 mans are fun, raids are fun, quests are fun, etc. And then gear reflects the fun and growth I've had as a player. It's only work if it's a means to an end.

Which it often is for people -- sometimes they've forgotten it's about doing what's fun and think it's actually about getting the gear itself or checking off a box that says "You Win". Mostly I think people just have so much more fun with current content, for the challenge and the novelty, so they really just want to be doing that and gearing up to it is only a means to get to that fun part.

Blizzard just hasn't created as much of that new peak new content that players say they want, so you're going to have to play some of the old content while it's cooking. And it's not a criticism... it takes a lot of creativity and things coming together to make it. Though I suppose this thread is more about, "we rather replay the recent content than go back to the really old content".

[PenguinChan]

Should it be? Yes. Will we get it? About as likely as Blizzard introducing a FFXIV class switching system.

[tomten]

I think the heart of his point is that having characters designed to be something you develop individually is an essential fun part of the game for him. There definitely can be other types of games and versions of WoW that are fun without that, but it's a different experience. I actually prefer the way he describes but I also love Overwatch, which has no commitment -- you can even swap heroes mid-game.

The rules of what you can and cannot do define the game itself. It's the structure that lets you make meaningful choices and have a specific journey. Chess would not be more fun if every piece could move everywhere. Hide and seek wouldn't be more fun if you knew where everyone is. In the same way, for many people, MMORPGs are exciting precisely because you develop a character over time and everything about it is a part of its unique identity. Being able to jump over that on alt partially contradicts that gameplay.

You can just not take advantage of the benefits but that wouldn't satisfy another essential MMORPG element (in the eyes of many), that is to experience a shared world with other players which means a shared ruleset. This is one of modern WoWs sorest points in Blizzards' attempt to cater to everyone. And so we end up with raid 4 difficulty levels, essentially fragmenting the playerbase and undermining that real, existing, shared world experience that people yearn for in an MMORPG. We just need everyone to have a game for them, with a playerbase that likes that type of game.

Also, maybe there is a best of both worlds. Maybe if WoW was a game where leveling and gearing up was much more engaging to a 2022 player from the beginning, then you would look forward to doing it on an alt and not want to, say, get it over with so you can be strong enough to do the content you actually like.

You have some fair points but I also think you're ignoring that gear is far from the only time sink.
Early on in the game, you could not really switch covenants, locking you into either be pvp, raid, or m+.., you had to grind out venari rep that maxed out the eye, you had several rep grinds, some needed to make cauldrons for raid, so couldn't ignore them, you have farming anima, you had farm renown levels, (none of this buy lvl 60 for alts thing), if you wanted some gold to afford anything, you'd had to get 2 professions, leveling them up, often on 2 chars to get good profit on end consumer.
You had daily quests inside your covenants once you unlocked the tier thingy, which also had to farm anima to build, farm anima to use it, and I haven't even touched on anima for mogs. You had to both farm torghost and doing several related quest to it unlock both. Then you gotta farm your legendary memory, usually 2-3 per class.
Then farm torghast for currency.
You needed to either be insane and have 6 professions or just farm gold to buy base legendary, which early on was 80-200k (realm depending). And i'm 100% sure i've forgot more than one similar thing as described above...

And after having done all that? I'm still only in guest gear, greens and blues. Or bit higher if did dungeons instead.
So now you need to start farming normals, so you can farm heroic, so you get enough gear to run a m0 world tour, hopefully luck out and get a couple drops.
And now you are at the very lowest level of mythic dungeon with shit gear...
Having been forced to endure all of that on one character is pretty much enough already.... So if they would enable me sending gear to chars my alts that dropped while doing highest content and speed gear him, enabling all other aspects to go much more smooth and faster? Then yeh, thats good compromise.
Or if they just tone down or outright remove a couple of those grindsteps and dont allow sending gear to alts? Then ye, also a good compromise.

With all these systems and more, and on new launch expo for dragon flight (Which comes shortly) there's no alt friendly "send currency to alt", no catchup mechanics for gear, very little welfare for gear overall. And we still have the same alt unfriendly situation. They just need to meet everyone sorta in the middle.
Maybe add some of the "send currency" options from launch. So whatever content that alt has to do? Can be speed up in weeks but still has to develop it on his own, just with some help.

There's tons of solutions to not make it feel like having a 2nd job while not making the loud side scream "you just want everything free sent to your mailbox" crowd... Not really but if its gonna continue like tradtionally? Yeh, im totally up for that, it would allivate a lot of the problems with having alts. But an actual compromise or middleground where they look at the issue objectibely and say, heey, we see how much happier our playerbase overall have so much better metrics for last tier and all the catchup mechanics we always add anyhow, that we've decided to give you more of those features earlier so everyone can really enjoy dragon flight they see fit. or whatever, you get where im going at, right?

[Niwes]

If you dislike it so much, why keep doing it?

just because i like playing raids and dungeons (on high difficulty levels) and i love playing the different classes and their playstyles. but i not like repeating the same quests and simple tasks again and again and again. so i have to accept a lot of boring and grindy things, just to be able to do what i like.

the truth is: reality is never that simple, as your question wanna make it look like.

[shise]

They tried and it failed spectacularly, its called garrison, you can go visit your house now, anytime you want.
The rest of us? We don't want housing.

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Again, you can play wow for whatever reason you want but remember, its A GAME NOT A FREAKING JOB... Let me play the game as I want and stop saying absolute things from your narrow, small, ignorant perspective.

You are pretty much all those thigns you mention here.

All I said is, when alts can be gather a full set of equipment without even being played, that is just bad game design. If you do not have fun playing them to build and develop them, then you are the one who has the problem with the game and maybe you should not be playing it?

I am super open minded about making the game alt friendly. I hate having to go through all the stupid systems all over again and I am all in for BoEs. But not every item should be a BoE... people should have to play characters to reach certain level of performance... What is the point of the game otherwise?

So hey, instead of being all jumpy and toxic, the next time be open minded to have a dialog It is a your opinion vs mine kind of thing... you are not right and I am not either. remember that...

Getthign so sick of all the idiotic comments, going ultra toxic and radical right away when they disagree wiht someone.... get a grip people. (This is not just pointed at you but at everyone else)

[thunderdragon2]

For transmogs YES not in the end game content.

lets fix that tmog yes anything found out in the world (think malleable flesh for stichworks factory) yes endgame content no (i agree with) there is a lot of things that shouldnt be bop still or should never have been bop in the 1st place

[arkanon]

This was a successful venture in a few other MMOs

Be specific - which other mmos was it successful?

[loras]

That's why I would never share rep. Too much of a stretch. However, if you examine it from the broad overview, "Oh yeah, I know them really well. They've worked with me on more than one occasion against (insert big bad here) and I don't mind helping them out." It would rival the likes of a guildie helping another guildie, especially if both characters are in the same guild which adds up.

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True, which is why in raids, a mage will never get a perfect piece for a paladin or a hunter, and vice versa. However, if you could share currency, you could at least craft gear from the BoP crafting materials that are simply withering away on your main/alt. It's a small step to help your alts, not the one stop shop to gear them. No different really than simply buying a bunch of 304 gear in the AH, except now you are helping yourself a bit.

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I don't recall the last time something dropped in a raid I could not use considering my spec and loot table. As far as dungeons, say hello to actually giving said item to your own alt and not watching the person who got the drop simply vendor it since they cannot use it. And, to be fair, aside from some M+15s with friends (who would trade), any other group I get into, especially LFR, no one even talks let alone trades.

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I find in SWTOR I am more likely to play alts simply because my main has the currency needed to buy the shell gear and when the "enhancements" drop, I can simply toss them into my legacy bank for said alt. I am likely not the only person discouraged playing alts since they now need to have the same ilvl as the main who would simply be sitting on items they could have shared, but instead had to vendor as useless junk.

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Absolutely not. But if I am grinding old content for mogs, and the BoP drops help my level 33 alt, they could benefit slightly from a better piece of gear to keep leveling with. Your argument is a bit hyperbolic and my idea "stopped" at the idea of sharing things that could be used, instead of vendored. If I want a boost, I will pop into the shop and buy one since Blizz would never give up on that cash cow

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It's not a lack of interest in progressing them. But once in awhile it might be nice to give them a single item that could come in handy. I am gold capped on 22 characters, so if I could stop vendoring and share with alts, it would give me more use and enjoyment of actually looting the body on my main

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And that could work too. Leave Mythic dungeon and raid gear as BoP and convert all of the things that no longer matter. Like when my mage loots a shield in Wrath or Panda content, and I have not yet collected the appearance, or maybe my alt is only level 31 and could use it. People seem to be panicked by the concept like having alts receive treats would somehow ruin their street cred playing wow. It's a game, and we are not top 1%ers. No one cares what we do, or what we've done... except us.

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I have not seen a Need vs Greed roll system since Pandaland, maybe even cata. Personal loot tables saw to that. Even in old content running with friends, there is no roll system. This is why the Trade option is still a thing.

Yeah, sharing rep is perhaps one bridge too far, but a nice boost to rep from completing it on one character would not be out of place.
And i'm not talking about measly amounts here; a second character should imo get a times five or times ten rep gain boost.

"Shit, this guy's almost exactly like that guy we exalt!"

[Tentim]

Be specific - which other mmos was it successful?

I imagine final fantasy is the popular example. I've seen a few small mmos do it as well and you could argue games like runescape kinda do it.

[Sinured]

Where does this mindset stop? Should leveling one class to level 70 automatically make all your other characters level 70?

yes.
congrats for 4headin.

leveling more than 1 character should be optional.

[Sinfelle]

If you play the game at higher difficulties it isn't fun to farm low difficulties.

A mythic 20 is a guaranteed success for me with a guild group of mythic 0 geared alts.

There is this perception on the lower end that wow is a game that relies on grinding gear but that hasn't really been true since tbc.

If you have the ability to play at higher levels you really feel the tedium of heroic and low level mythic plus. It's why people dispise alternative power systems.

Yea imma call bullshit on that.

I love my guildies and they are great cutting edge raiders and top tier M+, but that shit aint happening. You absolutely arent timing it, if it's tyrant a lot of shit will just flat out kill you regardless if you did everything perfectly, and on fort you'd be going at a snails pace because you can't aoe blast for shit. While you MAY scratch and claw your way to completion, that's hours of work for failed key.

Don't lie and boast on the internet to make yourself seem cooler folks, doesn't work