[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Svifnymr]

If people want an actual discussion, they'll have to provide actual arguments. In whatever form and language, as long as they're properly justified and reasoned.

That's basically the crux of the issue of course. There is nothing to justify, nothing to argue, it's just a discussion about a piece of entertainment. At the end of the day, if you disprove someone's opinion to your satisfaction, you've done nothing but stifle the discussion. And I'm not saying that every opinion needs to be engaged or built on, by any means, but the default on this board seems to be to "win" the opinion battle, when we're not debating rules or facts for the most part. Especially in some of these threads that just generate a ton of pro/ anti sentiment that doesn't have anything to do with the actual product. And of course, this sort of "discussing the discussion" contributes to it, so I try not to go too far into the circle.

[paxen]

Hulks in their normal human form are humans. If they were hulks, Bruce wouldn't have bled and transformed Jen. And don't start "but the inhibitor...". That thing was supposed to control the transformation, not remove hulk bonuses from his human form, if they existed, which they didn;t.

They really are not. Bruce just jumps out of a plane and transforms as a reaction to the impact, not to prevent it. There's also the time he ate a bullet as Bruce and spit it out as Hulk.

And as for the inhibitor I'm pretty sure he called out that it was exactly what caused the bleeding. It's the entire reason the thing is there, so Bruce can bleed on Jen.

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Not that Marvel is browsing this forum to see what folks thought could be improved with SheHulk of course, but it's pretty pointless at times. I'm just catching up on a bunch of things lately since Disney+ had a sale, SheHulk is probably below average for me, but certainly not the worst. Boba Fett takes that honor, though it's not Marvel, it bugged me enough to transcend.

Oh lord Boba was horrible. I watched half an episode and told my friend group that this was a show they could watch without me, thanks. Also a show were Boba is supposedly a crime lord but never does crime. At least Jen Walters appears in court and wins cases!

I ended up giving Obi-wan a try, it had some great actors (McEwen just makes it watchable all on his own, little Leia was great), but the only interesting arc there (Reva's) was just totally hidden because they wanted to do a "surprise!!" in ep 5. Show your interesting stuff, morons.

[Endus]

Almost everything is going to be opinions in a thread like this, so dismissing discussion because it's an opinion usually just means we shouldn't be having any sort of discussion at all.

There's a difference between subjective preferences and statements of fact presented as if they were subjective preferences, solely in an attempt to avoid criticism.

"This show is bad" is the same as "I think this show is bad",

The problem is you're substituting "bad" which is an objective claim of determinable fact, in place of a subjective opinion like "I don't like this".

Let's talk about avocados.

"This avocado is bad" is a statement that the avocado's gone off, it's rotten or something. I should be able to show basically anyone and have them agree that yes, that avocado's no good, because this is an objective fact.

"I don't like avocado" is a statement of subjective preference. And I should just leave off the guacamole, in this case, rather than continue eating it and complaining every bite.

"Avocados are a terrible fruit and nobody should like them" is where I confuse my personal subjective preferences for an objective reality, and that means I'm being an enormous condescending jerk to anyone around me who likes avocado. It isn't me having an "opinion", it's me trying to force my subjective preferences into being considered as a fact.

Most of the negative statements getting pushback fall into that third category. Which is why they get pushback.

[Svifnymr]

They really are not. Bruce just jumps out of a plane and transforms as a reaction to the impact, not to prevent it. There's also the time he ate a bullet as Bruce and spit it out as Hulk.

And as for the inhibitor I'm pretty sure he called out that it was exactly what caused the bleeding. It's the entire reason the thing is there, so Bruce can bleed on Jen.

It feels like there was the idea at some point that Hulk persona would see the danger coming and transform from Banner? But not sure if that was ever like, officially official MCU. Not sure how that would apply to SheHulk or Abomination since they lack the second personality. I'd say it's uncertain for the most part.

In Ragnarok, Banner for sure should have been pretty banged up from that one comedy drop onto the bridge, but whether that is part of a pattern or just my "power fits plot" issue, can't say.

[paxen]

It feels like there was the idea at some point that Hulk persona would see the danger coming and transform from Banner? But not sure if that was ever like, officially official MCU. Not sure how that would apply to SheHulk or Abomination since they lack the second personality. I'd say it's uncertain for the most part.

In Ragnarok, Banner for sure should have been pretty banged up from that one comedy drop onto the bridge, but whether that is part of a pattern or just my "power fits plot" issue, can't say.

It could be that original intent was for Hulk to take over, but if it was an active decision wouldn't Hulk just crush the gun first instead? Hulking out as a reaction to trauma seems the most reasonable interpretation, which should be an ability shared with other hulks.

In the end Titania sucker punching Jen across the room mainly fits the tone of the show, which is why its there, but I still will say that I think Jen being able to take that punch is perfectly reasonable.

Not sure about how far you can take it that Titania pulled her punch so it wouldn't hurt too bad. The punch threw Jen across the patio, that requires a certain amount of force.

[Svifnymr]

There's a difference between subjective preferences and statements of fact presented as if they were subjective preferences, solely in an attempt to avoid criticism.



No, it's not.

.

Sure it is, it's certainly easy to tell when someone is stating an opinion, even when they might phrase it with certainly like you always do. The idea that you must refute the opinion as if someone might believe it's objective fact otherwise isn't really changing opinions.

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In the end Titania sucker punching Jen across the room mainly fits the tone of the show, which is why its there, but I still will say that I think Jen being able to take that punch is perfectly reasonable.

Not sure about how far you can take it that Titania pulled her punch so it wouldn't hurt too bad. The punch threw Jen across the patio, that requires a certain amount of force.

We don't actually even know Titania's strength or endurance levels in the show, really. We only really have SheHulk comparing vs Hulk, and even Hulk's not exactly rated on some specific power scale that we can point at? I honestly just figured everyone accepted that power levels fluctuated with plot demands like I did, and stated that some of the fluctuations in SheHulk were a bit too silly for me. Mostly the show is below average for me because it skips over too much actual development along the way. I've got no interest in the blood-stealing metaplot for instance, and wish they'd use that time to better expand other stuff.

[Endus]

Sure it is, it's certainly easy to tell when someone is stating an opinion, even when they might phrase it with certainly like you always do. The idea that you must refute the opinion as if someone might believe it's objective fact otherwise isn't really changing opinions.

I see you just cut out the explanation for why your position makes no sense. Cutting that out isn't a counterpoint.

Most of what's getting pushback aren't statements of subjective preference. They're claims of objective reality. If you're claiming "this show is bad", that's an objectively qualifiable statement. Not a subjective preference or opinion. It's entirely distinct from just saying "I don't like this show".

Also, nobody here gives any shits about "changing opinions". Nobody's trying to make you like the show, or something. That's not what's happening. It's weirdo Main Character Syndrome.

The reality is we're all enjoying a barbeque (enjoying She-Hulk) and a bunch of you are vegans storming in to try and yell at us that "meat is murder" and "you're eating animal flesh, you animal" and whatever other stupid slogans they yell. We're pushing back because we just want to enjoy our steaks and burgers in peace, and your only intent is to ruin that for us. It's unpleasant and disrespectful, which is why you don't get a lot of polite response; you get response in character with the tone you brought with you.

[paxen]

So far the show doesn't show us where SHE-HULK (not Jen) belongs in the general MCU story. That's what i am talking about. The moment SHE-HULK decides that she will act as a SUPERHERO in this setting, parallel to her life as the lawyer. The first Titania conflict doesn;t count, as she was pushed to do that by her paralegal.

There are two central premises to the show: 1) how becoming She-Hulk messes with Jen's career and 2) Jen slowly realizing that while she doesn't want to be a superhero, being just Jen kinda sucks compared to what she can be as She-Hulk.

The big difference between the famous Slott run and this show is that Jen starts at a very different place: in the comics, she loves being She-Hulk and has to learn that being Jen Walters is also a thing. Here she instead is slowly learning that being She-Hulk can be cool.

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We don't actually even know Titania's strength or endurance levels in the show, really. We only really have SheHulk comparing vs Hulk, and even Hulk's not exactly rated on some specific power scale that we can point at? I honestly just figured everyone accepted that power levels fluctuated with plot demands like I did, and stated that some of the fluctuations in SheHulk were a bit too silly for me.

I get you on that, just explaining why, for me, the power levels described are rather reasonable and certainly within standard superhero genre conventions.

The thing with Spider-man pulling his punches is honestly a retroactive explanation for how he can punch robbers in the face in one scene and then hold a train back or an entire ship together in another scene. It's just an explanation that makes sense when you combine spidey's superhuman feats of strength with his at least as superhuman feats of agility and control.

[Svifnymr]

I get you on that, just explaining why, for me, the power levels described are rather reasonable and certainly within standard superhero genre conventions.

The thing with Spider-man pulling his punches is honestly a retroactive explanation for how he can punch robbers in the face in one scene and then hold a train back or an entire ship together in another scene. It's just an explanation that makes sense when you combine spidey's superhuman feats of strength with his at least as superhuman feats of agility and control.

Yeah, can't have spiderman punching through people, certainly. Of course, not like Titania would know how much She Hulk could take any more than we could, or vice versa, in this specific encounter at least.

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I see you just cut out the explanation for why your position makes no sense. Cutting that out isn't a counterpoint.

Most of what's getting pushback aren't statements of subjective preference. They're claims of objective reality. If you're claiming "this show is bad", that's an objectively qualifiable statement. Not a subjective preference or opinion. It's entirely distinct from just saying "I don't like this show".

Also, nobody here gives any shits about "changing opinions". Nobody's trying to make you like the show, or something. That's not what's happening. It's weirdo Main Character Syndrome.

The reality is we're all enjoying a barbeque (enjoying She-Hulk) and a bunch of you are vegans storming in to try and yell at us that "meat is murder" and "you're eating animal flesh, you animal" and whatever other stupid slogans they yell. We're pushing back because we just want to enjoy our steaks and burgers in peace, and your only intent is to ruin that for us. It's unpleasant and disrespectful, which is why you don't get a lot of polite response; you get response in character with the tone you brought with you.

Nyah, you just treat everyone like they're vegans at your barbecue. Or I guess you just see everyone that way. I'll watch SheHulk, though I may have mistimed the month, I'm not going to bother extending my sub specificially for it.

[Santti]

I don't watch the show, and as you might remember from my earlier thread, I'm kinda done with superheroes. Which is why I'm not even going to bother trying to watch it.

However, it's really interesting watching people trying all their might to convince themselves and others that it's bad, from every possible angle imaginable, without saying that one thing they hate the most about it. And it's not particularly hard to figure out what that is.

Hint: It's right in the name of the show.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

However, it's really interesting watching people trying all their might to convince themselves and others that it's bad, from every possible angle imaginable, without saying that one thing they hate the most about it. And it's not particularly hard to figure out what that is.

What's even better is now they are 6 episodes deep into a show that they allegedly hate. And when a reasonable person is just like "Well, you can just stop watching the show if you don't like it... there's no gun to your head"... they will respond with gems like

"...and get dunked on with lines like "if you're not watching, your opinion is null and void"

That's a real thing that was posted in this thread when I told someone that if he found watching the show to be, in his words, "agony"...he should just stop watching the show.

[Biomega]

That's a real thing that was posted in this thread when I told someone that if he found watching the show to be, in his words, "agony"...he should just stop watching the show.

But... but...

But there's PEOPLE WHO HAVE A WRONG OPINION ON THE INTERNET!

Gotta stay informed to deal with that! Even if they hate every second of it!

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

But... but...

But there's PEOPLE WHO HAVE A WRONG OPINION ON THE INTERNET!

Gotta stay informed to deal with that! Even if they hate every second of it!

[Ringthane]

Nyah, you just treat everyone like they're vegans at your barbecue. Or I guess you just see everyone that way.

Thank you.

[eschatological]

I am claiming that there are millions of competent writers out there, that could have delivered a show worth watching, Jessica Gao isn't one of them and she does not deserve all the money she is getting for this train wreck. She also doesn't deserve your undying loyalty. Her writing is not simply bad, it is clearly lazy on a level that is inexcusable.
I don't know what it is about this show that makes you abandon any kind of sanity to defend it's abyssmal quality, but I am sure Gao is having a good laugh everytime someone is defending her.

I haven't watched this show (haven't watched any Marvel show since Loki, actually), but Jessica Gao is a very talented comedy writer with Silicon Valley and Rick and Morty credits to her name. She wrote "Pickle Rick," one of the most famous R&M episodes, and is an executive story editor for the entire show.

Don't know about you, but that's a pretty decent resume, those are two of the best comedies of the past decade.

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Also, as an aside, Better Call Saul is an amazing show, but the idea that it in any way realistically depicts how competent law is practiced is fucking hilarious.

Real law, practiced competently, is 1) extremely boring, 2) extremely long-winded, 3) extremely protracted over literally years, even a criminal proceeding can take a year, 4) and has lots of breaks where lawyers argue in side rooms about the definitions of things.

Best part is that most law is practiced pretty incompetently. Lawyers have to rely on massive amounts of research in each case to simply reach competence, because the training teaches you to approach each case as if it is novel (and they usually are). Those who don't put in the elbow grease (which is a lot of them) or don't have the resources to put in the elbow grease, often fail - but since both sides fail pretty regularly, even incompetent lawyers can win fairly regularly, because the system doesn't really care about what the right legal theory is, it cares about which lawyer sounded more convincing.

[SavoirFaire]

I haven't watched this show (haven't watched any Marvel show since Loki, actually), but Jessica Gao is a very talented comedy writer with Silicon Valley and Rick and Morty credits to her name. She wrote "Pickle Rick," one of the most famous R&M episodes, and is an executive story editor for the entire show.

Don't know about you, but that's a pretty decent resume, those are two of the best comedies of the past decade.

I’d say it’s a very valid point that 2/3 of the way through the show, I’m not 100% convinced we’ll get any character growth as some in this topic seem to be expecting. You can’t expect shallow sitcom stories and some deep character growth hand in hand. Well you can, but I’ve yet to see evidence this show can pull it off. Maslany and Gonzaga are carrying this show hard because they’re great, but the material seems sub-par. The journey of Jennifer Walters realizing her life is best when she’s big and green ALL the time could make for some interesting drama, but if the show is pure sitcom, this whole revelation and soul searching will likely end with a joke and a wink to the camera.

[Endus]

I’d say it’s a very valid point that 2/3 of the way through the show, I’m not 100% convinced we’ll get any character growth as some in this topic seem to be expecting. You can’t expect shallow sitcom stories and some deep character growth hand in hand. Well you can, but I’ve yet to see evidence this show can pull it off. Maslany and Gonzaga are carrying this show hard because they’re great, but the material seems sub-par. The journey of Jennifer Walters realizing her life is best when she’s big and green ALL the time could make for some interesting drama, but if the show is pure sitcom, this whole revelation and soul searching will likely end with a joke and a wink to the camera.

We've already got character growth. So the idea that there won't be any is obviously untrue. Is it gonna be a come-to-Jesus overhaul of Walters' personality? Fuck no. But these things basically never are. Look at the first Iron Man. Tony learns very little. Sure, he decides he's not gonna sell weapons any more, but he absolutely continues building weapons, for his own personal use. That continues to bite him in the ass for the remaining Iron Man films and into Age of Ultron. Now, sure, he has a huge amount of growth over his entire character arc, but in that first film? Not really a huge shift. And most of that was figured out by the time he built a suit in a cave with a box of scraps.

You can say the same about most films, taken by themselves. In films which even have character development in any meaningful sense, because plenty of highly-regarded classics essentially don't. Indiana Jones at the end of Crystal Skull is pretty much exactly the same dude as he was in Raiders. Even married the girl from Raiders, who he'd already had a relationship with before that movie started.

Jen's still in the middle of finding her feet being a Hulk and how that's gonna change her life. Character development suggests she should reach that achievement by the finale episode, possibly close to the last scenes in that episode. Expecting more than that . . . I just don't know what basis anyone has to do so. The show certainly hasn't implied anything deeper is necessary.

[MrLachyG]

Wow. Titania broke the court wall, but she softly suckered punch Jen. This is laughable.

She wanted to fight She-Hulk. Killing Jen while she wasn’t transformed wouldn’t have made that happen.

[Skulltaker]

She wanted to fight She-Hulk. Killing Jen while she wasn’t transformed wouldn’t have made that happen.

There's also the question how the entire Jen-Shehulk dynamic works. Bruce Banner shot himself in the head, which simply caused him to turn into Hulk. Decent chance that Titania pulled her hit, because she didn't know that.

[Fabinas]

All this is your take on the scene. Your interpretation. Sending a human body across a distance demands a certain amount of force. The first hit in the garden sent Jen flying. This, by laws of physics, can't be a suckerpunch. It sent a huge amount of kinetic energy to a human skeleton and cranium. Those should have broken to bits and pieces.

So unless someone comes out from marvel and explains this, it is bullshit. We are already deep into MCU territory and noone has ever explained if and why Hulk(s) are more resilient in their human forms. On the contrary, we have a Banner splattering his blood over his cousin, transforming her.

That's why the show has absolutely no consistency on its power levels. And don't get started with the obvious "But that's how MCU and comics work", "Don't expect real life physics in your superhero genre" etc. It's still shit.


*** EDIT***

Editing this because i rewatched the scene. IT WAS THE FIRST PUNCH THAT SENT JEN FLYING SOME 5-10 METERS FAR. IN HUMAN FORM.

This show sucks.