Torchlight Infinite pulls a fast one on everyone (goes P2W after F2P promisses)

[Big Thanks]

How can we trust developers anymore?
Torchlight Infinite promissed a F2P friendly environment in the game from BETA.
Content creators release preview/review videos saying the game is very much F2P friendly (exemple: TheLazyPeon)

And then

BAM! The game becomes a pay to win fiesta out of nowhere.

Im talking:
-P2W Battlepass
-Gacha Pulls related to power
-Different currencies and top up bonuses

Content creators were bamboozled...everyone was bamboozled.
Shame on them and...quite funny turn of events.

Game to be released on October

[Santti]

How can we trust developers anymore?

I don't know anything about the development of this game, but a wild guess would be the problem lying with the publishers, not the developers. That's how it typically goes. Absolutely hold them accountable for their bullshit, but just looking at the last... 15'ish years, you really shouldn't trust the game until it's released. You only set yourself up for a disappointment, otherwise.

[Big Thanks]

I don't know anything about the development of this game, but a wild guess would be the problem lying with the publishers, not the developers. That's how it typically goes. Absolutely hold them accountable for their bullshit, but just looking at the last... 15'ish years, you really shouldn't trust the game until it's released. You only set yourself up for a disappointment, otherwise.

Just read this interview with the developer if you wish to get a major laugh

https://www.pocketgamer.com/torchlig...eng-interview/

It was all lies. Everything. He lies non stop on the interview from start to end.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The first two Torchlight games (that established the franchise) were developed by Runic Games. The original developer.


Torchlight 3 was developed by Echtra Games and was less-than-decent. This abomination known as Torchlight Infinite was developed by a Chinese developer known as Xindong Network and are known for most of, if not all of, their games being this design.


Shame on Perfect World for ruining this franchise.



P.S. -- a lot of fans of Torchlight were half-expecting tomfoolery with Torchlight Infinite already. Once it was announced to be a mobile title, that is. Many fans were not completely blitzed by these turn of events... but it just so happens these specific turn of events are particularly blitzy.

[Edge-]

Eh, it was predictable it was going to come to this given the team behind the game. This isn't made by Runic, which doesn't exist anymore.

It's legit just PoE with a Torchlight skin and...it's kinda pretty good. P2W or whatever with gacha bullshit but I don't care, also don't care that the PC port is fairly meh.

I don't think anyone was expecting a "traditional" Torchlight experience with this game. Now we just gotta hope Gearbox does something with the IP since they're the new owners.

Don't worry though, they hired David Brevik as a consultant on Infinite for the final month of development!

Real though, don't give a single fuck about the bad monetization system so far. Played the beta to early "mapping" and it was a ton of fun. I can see some of the limitations/problems around the gacha system, but really don't mind. You can get pulls from in-game currency shit and the rest of the gameplay and farming is fun so I'm here for it when it actually launches.

[Fencers]

It was kind of a POE reskin. Still a fun game. P2W doesn't matter- it is stupid to even care about in non-competitive and recreational gaming.

Just a bunch of nonsense to get up & bothered by, the world has changed. Ain't ever going back.

Simply don't play or pay for what you find distasteful. And if you find all games distasteful, go outside.

[xmirrors]

I'm fine with P2W systems because I don't play games competitively anymore anyway, but I don't appreciate being lied to.

[Cynical Asshole]

That's how games are made the days.

1. Release a crappy game.
2. Add P2W mechanics.
3. Watch as the whales quickly buy shit worth way more than the game would have sold in box value.
4. Everyone dumps the game a few weeks later.

Rinse and repeat.

Game developing is the modern age whaling.

[vian]

It was kind of a POE reskin. Still a fun game. P2W doesn't matter- it is stupid to even care about in non-competitive and recreational gaming.

Just a bunch of nonsense to get up & bothered by, the world has changed. Ain't ever going back.

Simply don't play or pay for what you find distasteful. And if you find all games distasteful, go outside.

Guess that could be said about posting too.

[Delekii]

It was kind of a POE reskin. Still a fun game. P2W doesn't matter- it is stupid to even care about in non-competitive and recreational gaming.

Just a bunch of nonsense to get up & bothered by, the world has changed. Ain't ever going back.

Simply don't play or pay for what you find distasteful. And if you find all games distasteful, go outside.

It certainly ain't going back if you don't complain about it. Sitting and accepting bad anti-consumer practices is a surefire way to make things worse than they are.

A developer/publisher/whoever stating outright multiple times over that the game would not be pay to win, then making it absolutely pay to win, is wrong and inexcuseable, and should be called out loudly and repeatedly until it incurs a cost. It is flatly wrong. It should be illegal. They even got some paid slots with content creators who are absolutely against pay to win on the back of it being completely free to play who would not in any circumstances have done spots for the game had they known it would be pay to win.

If game developers can say literally whatever they want, lie overtly, and incur no cost at all, the industry is simply fucked. Expecting them to stick to their word is a very small bar to set. If you are actually ok with this practice you can fuck right off.

[Hotmail]

There's no pleasing anyone with mobile games. They're insanely lucrative, but a loud subsection of gamers cannot help themselves when they hear the term "P2W". Something in their lizard brain triggers them to grab the nearest pitchfork and create the biggest shitstorm they can, under the pretense of defending the consumer--a consumer that didn't have to pay a single dime to play the game.

So this Liu Heng guy lied. Or maybe he didn't. The publisher probably stepped in at the last minute and went "hey guys, wake up, we're sitting on a goldmine. start putting gacha in the game".

Personally, I couldn't care less, because I have this thing called self-control.

[Delekii]

There's no pleasing anyone with mobile games. They're insanely lucrative, but a loud subsection of gamers cannot help themselves when they hear the term "P2W". Something in their lizard brain triggers them to grab the nearest pitchfork and create the biggest shitstorm they can, under the pretense of defending the consumer--a consumer that didn't have to pay a single dime to play the game.

So this Liu Heng guy lied. Or maybe he didn't. The publisher probably stepped in at the last minute and went "hey guys, wake up, we're sitting on a goldmine. start putting gacha in the game".

Personally, I couldn't care less, because I have this thing called self-control.

It pains me that there are people like you that can't see the end result of that line of reasoning, which is that we get universally worse games so that companies get bigger profits. You don't play the game "for free"; you play a significantly worse version of it than you would have got if they actually stuck to free to play, or made it buy to play.

In the end though, there is a 4000 page Diablo Immortal thread that already addressed every stupid argument you and yours had, it doesn't need to be rehashed. The even worse part here is that they advertised the game as having no purchasable power, got content creators to make content on the basis that it would be free to play with no pay to win, then changed it at the last minute. It is simply, overtly, wrong. It's not even remotely grey area like the pay-to-win argument in totally is; it's purely black.

I simply cannot believe that anyone can excuse any company who overtly lies to them like that, because "oh hey, we will make more money if we lie". It doesn't matter if one guy said "it will be no play to win" and then someone else twists their arm and makes it pay to win; the company moved the goalposts after the fact.

[Mendzia]

That's how games are made the days.

1. Release a crappy and unfinished game.
2. Add P2W mechanics which f2p players have to chance to compete.
3. Watch as the whales quickly buy shit worth way more than the game would have sold in box value.
4. Everyone dumps the game a few weeks later.
5. New DLC/Season Pass is announced to milk the remaining players until game dies.

Rinse and repeat.

Game developing is the modern age whaling.

This.
I added a few bolded things from myself.

Never ever preorder anything nor believe ANY publisher.
Only buy games after reading opinions, watching videos etc.

[Hotmail]

It pains me that there are people like you that can't see the end result of that line of reasoning, which is that we get universally worse games so that companies get bigger profits. You don't play the game "for free"; you play a significantly worse version of it than you would have got if they actually stuck to free to play, or made it buy to play.

People like you not only want games to be free, they want games to be free of any monetization scheme, which is an absurd stance.

When a F2P game is released, it is released with the expectation that it's going to turn a profit. If that profit doesn't come from an upfront cost or subscription model, it has to come from micro-transactions. So the end result of no micro-transaction... is no game at all, at least in the mobile world.

The even worse part here is that they advertised the game as having no purchasable power, got content creators to make content on the basis that it would be free to play with no pay to win, then changed it at the last minute. It is simply, overtly, wrong. I simply cannot believe that anyone can excuse any company who overtly lies to them like that, because "oh hey, we will make more money if we lie". It doesn't matter if one guy said "it will be no play to win" and then someone else twists their arm and makes it pay to win; the company moved the goalposts after the fact.

They had a certain philosophy heading in, then they realized that philosophy wouldn't work, so they changed it. If you want to make drama about being lied to AT THE LAST SECOND OMG that's fine, but that's all this is: drama.

[Delekii]

People like you not only want games to be free, they want games to be free of any monetization scheme, which is an absurd stance.

Absolutely not. From the inception of games until about 5 years ago, games were produced, marketed, and profitable, without a freemium model existing. Even now, games exist that are free to play with monetized microtransactions, or extremely limited scope of microtransactions, that are extremely profitable. The only reason for freemium to exist is because it's never enough; everyone wants ALL the profit, product quality be damned. But again, this has all been discussed ad-infinitum in the DI thread. It's really not the point of this thread.

When a F2P game is released, it is released with the expectation that it's going to turn a profit. If that profit doesn't come from an upfront cost or subscription model, it has to come from micro-transactions. So the end result of no micro-transaction... is no game at all, at least in the mobile world.

Here is a complete list of all the people who have said that this game would not have microtransactions, or should run at a loss, or even not at a massive profit, which it would have been with no power microtransactions:

List complete.

They had a certain philosophy heading in, then they realized that philosophy wouldn't work, so they changed it.

It would work, and it does work. It just doesn't sacrifice as much game quality for the most possible profit.

If you want to make drama about being lied to AT THE LAST SECOND OMG that's fine, but that's all this is: drama.

That's your incorrect opinion. It's not just "drama" that companies profit from practices that are anti-consumer. The fact that you think it's no big deal is why they can do it. Grow some testicles.

[Gorsameth]

It pains me that there are people like you that can't see the end result of that line of reasoning, which is that we get universally worse games so that companies get bigger profits. You don't play the game "for free"; you play a significantly worse version of it than you would have got if they actually stuck to free to play, or made it buy to play.

Welcome to capitalism. You think gaming is special?
How many appliances are 'worse' today then they were 30 years ago thanks to build in obsolescence?
the whole "they don't make em like they used to"?

Complain all you want if it makes you feel better, but your not going to beat human greed.

[Delekii]

Welcome to capitalism. You think gaming is special?
How many appliances are 'worse' today then they were 30 years ago thanks to build in obsolescence?
the whole "they don't make em like they used to"?

Complain all you want if it makes you feel better, but your not going to beat human greed.

You're right, we should just do nothing. That's fixed a lot of problems in the world.

[Hotmail]

Absolutely not. From the inception of games until about 5 years ago, games were produced, marketed, and profitable, without a freemium model existing. Even now, games exist that are free to play with monetized microtransactions, or extremely limited scope of microtransactions, that are extremely profitable. The only reason for freemium to exist is because it's never enough; everyone wants ALL the profit, product quality be damned.

Freemium is not mutually exclusive with product quality. In fact, it goes hand in hand with it. Case in point, D:Immortal and Hearthstone.

Now here's a list of absolutely riveting non-freemium mobile games:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/12...y-mobile-games

The only decent title on there is Bastion, and Bastion is a PC game.

The industry has shifted, not because companies are evil and greedy, but because they've figured out a monetization model that lets you play the game for free and decide how much you want to spend on it. For the mobile landscape, this is far more successful than any other model, and it's not like the consumer doesn't benefit.

It would work, and it does work.

You don't know how much Torchlight Infinite cost to make. You don't even know how many users it has to attract to turn a profit.

That's your incorrect opinion. It's not just "drama" that companies profit from practices that are anti-consumer. The fact that you think it's no big deal is why they can do it. Grow some testicles.

Calling these practices "anti-consumer" is your incorrect opinion. But whatever you say, echo chamber warrior

[Delekii]

Freemium is not mutually exclusive with product quality. In fact, it goes hand in hand with it. Case in point, D:Immortal and Hearthstone.

In what world are DI and Hearthstone case in point? Are you kidding? DI is a cluster fuck, and droves of people stopped playing Hearthstone standard modes and started playing only Battlegrounds, to the point where they removed the ability to even pay for the extra hero choices with gold because nobody was paying for it. Even now, Battlegrounds "pay to win" is extraordinarily minor, and it's more than possible to free play normal hearthstone if you limit the scope of your collection.

Now here's a list of absolutely riveting non-freemium mobile games:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/12...y-mobile-games

The only decent title on there is Bastion, and Bastion is a PC game.

Congratulations on linking a list from 2015. Some people still used nokia bricks back then.

Needless to say, calling you a facetious actor in the argument is more than appropriate. There are a shitload of great pay once mobile games, a shitload of literal free games, a shitload of games with a much more limited scope of pay to win.

The industry has shifted, not because companies are evil and greedy, but because they've figured out a monetization model that lets you play the game for free and decide how much you want to spend on it. For the mobile landscape, this is far more successful than any other model, and it's not like the consumer doesn't benefit.

The consumer absolutely does not benefit, compared with the old model. It is succesful only insofar as how much profit the companies make, and it is absolutely because companies are, at that level, evil and greedy.

You don't know how much Torchlight Infinite cost to make. You don't even know how many users it has to attract to turn a profit.


Calling these practices "anti-consumer" is your incorrect opinion. But whatever you say, echo chamber warrior

Nor do you. However, since comparable games exist, and have existed for many years, and been monumentally profitable, I have the benefit of evidence to support my opinion, whereas you don't. Unless you somehow think that server requirements for mobile games are somehow significantly more taxing than the multitude of mass player games that have existed since broadband internet came about.

Nothing you say makes any sense. You call me an echo chamber warrior, yet your position requires willful suspension of evidence to believe.

If you are pro pay-to-win because you enjoy paying to win, that's a position I can understand. I don't like it, I don't agree with you, but it is a valid opinion to have. Pretending that freemium models are used for any other reason than because they make the company a shitload more money, and the consumer experience or quality of game has anything to do with the decision, is monumentally stupid and detached from reality.

[Beefhammer]

The first two Torchlight games (that established the franchise) were developed by Runic Games. The original developer.


Torchlight 3 was developed by Echtra Games and was less-than-decent. This abomination known as Torchlight Infinite was developed by a Chinese developer known as Xindong Network and are known for most of, if not all of, their games being this design.


Shame on Perfect World for ruining this franchise.



P.S. -- a lot of fans of Torchlight were half-expecting tomfoolery with Torchlight Infinite already. Once it was announced to be a mobile title, that is. Many fans were not completely blitzed by these turn of events... but it just so happens these specific turn of events are particularly blitzy.

TL3 was still headed up by the guy who did TL1/2. One of the key guys that made D1/2.