Russian invasion of Ukraine

[D Luniz]

So im one of those russians that ran from country last few days.
I dont know anyone that are ready to be drafted, everyone is trying to leave or hiding. Not everyone can leave.
Argumentation is not fear in most of the times, however it is scary when you receive paper that you need go to war, main question is "what for? I understand if germans were invading us again, or americans were atacking, but here we are invading, and who? Closest slavic country with tonns of relatives"
My brother said "if i will be drafted , i will shoot my first round of ammo in those who sent me"
So just sharing mood with you guys.
Pretty disgusting that some countries in such situation are closing border because of "russian tourism", when people are running from risk to die in Ukraine for nothing, from dictatorship country where you say or do anything against - being sent to war.
There is very little part of people that for sure will go, but 90% are not supporting any of this, however opression mechanism is so perfectly developed by Putin that very little can be done. There is many things that needs to be in place to protests be real and working, all of it were wiped out by FSB. It is not like protesting in Europe or US. Its more like protesting in north korea. So dont blame those that are scared, you definitely dont understand reality of dictatorship country citizens are dealing with there.

After Georgia, and then the repeated chunks of Ukraine, and the MASSIVE shitshow of hacking, ransomware and disinformation in other nations
it rings hollow to hear "feel bad for us, let us hide from a draft in your nations"

[Iphie]

Actually, one step further I might add. Members of a hostile terrorist nation should be detained on sight, and sent back to RuZZland. Not one of their sleeper cell agents should be allowed refuge in the west.

Disagree, but only because you are also closing the border to those who genuinely need to flee persecution.

[Gabriel]

So im one of those russians that ran from country last few days.
I dont know anyone that are ready to be drafted, everyone is trying to leave or hiding. Not everyone can leave.
Argumentation is not fear in most of the times, however it is scary when you receive paper that you need go to war, main question is "what for? I understand if germans were invading us again, or americans were atacking, but here we are invading, and who? Closest slavic country with tonns of relatives"
My brother said "if i will be drafted , i will shoot my first round of ammo in those who sent me"
So just sharing mood with you guys.
Pretty disgusting that some countries in such situation are closing border because of "russian tourism", when people are running from risk to die in Ukraine for nothing, from dictatorship country where you say or do anything against - being sent to war.
There is very little part of people that for sure will go, but 90% are not supporting any of this, however opression mechanism is so perfectly developed by Putin that very little can be done. There is many things that needs to be in place to protests be real and working, all of it were wiped out by FSB. It is not like protesting in Europe or US. Its more like protesting in north korea. So dont blame those that are scared, you definitely dont understand reality of dictatorship country citizens are dealing with there.

Aren't you that person who claimed to have some Finnish origins but decided he felt more connected to russia? The one that was talking shit about Ukraine being responsible for shooting down MH17?

[Makabreska]

Aren't you that person who claimed to have some Finnish origins but decided he felt more connected to russia? The one that was talking shit about Ukraine being responsible for shooting down MH17?

That he is. It is so hilarious to see one of those "Russia stronk" supporters promptly fucking off to other countries, because suddenly this war ain't so glorious, righteous and attractive any more.

[Dontrike]

That he is. It is so hilarious to see one of those "Russia stronk" supporters promptly fucking off to other countries, because suddenly this war ain't so glorious, righteous and attractive any more.

When you're suddenly one of the ones that are being thrown into the wood chipper, you suddenly find a different opinion real quick. It's why a lot of those Z's disappeared on a lot of the Zealots property. They were okay with it when they weren't the ones in danger.

[MCMLXXXII]

Especially with their posting history. Racist, homophobic, misogynistic, and pro-russian military, with a focus on invading ukraine, with an added bonus for claiming that ukraine is responsible for russia shooting down MH-17.

Ouch, that must hurt. I think closing the border for actual Russian refugees isn't the way to go but if this guy was at the border post, I would be waving to the closest Russian conscription officer and yell: hey, you've missed this one!

[Saradain]

Ding-ding-ding, we have the first russian with 180 degree turn in opinions when "democratic" Russia liberates them from their rights for their "liberation" war.

No sympathy here.

[Azadina]

Disagree, but only because you are also closing the border to those who genuinely need to flee persecution.

How do you guarantee that they are truly looking to flee, and aren't just spies? Also, bonus question: how do you guarantee that those who truly did flee, are not pressured to spy for RuZZia, in exchange for their family members in RuZZia not suffering "consequences" for their "betrayal"?.

You can't, and it's not worth it. Especially with RuZZian need of crossing borders to murder, rape and pillage countries in order to "defend" their citizens abroad.

[Iphie]

How do you guarantee that they are truly looking to flee, and aren't just spies? Also, bonus question: how do you guarantee that those who truly did flee, are not pressured to spy for RuZZia, in exchange for their family members in RuZZia not suffering "consequences" for their "betrayal"?.

You can't, and it's not worth it. Especially with RuZZian need of crossing borders to murder, rape and pillage countries in order to "defend" their citizens abroad.

Well there you have my issue, you cannot keep the innocent out in order to keep the guilty in. Vetting is what is needed. If you think I WANT a bunch of russians in Finland then you're sorely mistaken but I am not so far gone yet that I feel that we should reject everyone out of hand. Down that path lies ruin.

[Azadina]

Well there you have my issue, you cannot keep the innocent out in order to keep the guilty in. Vetting is what is needed. If you think I WANT a bunch of russians in Finland then you're sorely mistaken but I am not so far gone yet that I feel that we should reject everyone out of hand. Down that path lies ruin.

Costs money, and it's sorely needed in say, healthcare sector rather than random RuZZkies who are draft dodging. Ruin lies where RuZZia brings it, and that's reason enough to cut them all off.

[Nymrohd]

Let them flee, just make it hard/impossible for them to send money back home. Less people the Ukrainians have to kill and more damage done to the economy this way. As for them being potential spies, everyone is a potential spy. Why are you letting people who are not vetted near things worth spying on?

[Saradain]

Well there you have my issue, you cannot keep the innocent out in order to keep the guilty in. Vetting is what is needed. If you think I WANT a bunch of russians in Finland then you're sorely mistaken but I am not so far gone yet that I feel that we should reject everyone out of hand. Down that path lies ruin.

Let us not forget Russia blackmailed Finland with massive sudden rush of refugees coming from Russia when Finland didn't wanna loosen up the visas for russian citizens. And the rush magically ended the moment Finland decided to do what Putin wanted.

We definitely should not let russians in regardless of reasons. Let russians live and die for their cause and UNO reverse card the economic damage back to Russia via instability and other domestic issues.

Point being, russians can and will weaponize anything and everything.

[Vladier]

How do you guarantee that they are truly looking to flee, and aren't just spies? Also, bonus question: how do you guarantee that those who truly did flee, are not pressured to spy for RuZZia, in exchange for their family members in RuZZia not suffering "consequences" for their "betrayal"?.

You can't, and it's not worth it. Especially with RuZZian need of crossing borders to murder, rape and pillage countries in order to "defend" their citizens abroad.

How can one spy on anything important by being a refugee? Especially be being a refugee from a country involved in spying, thus automatically under watch? Do you really think that there is a single spy who ever had a cover story of a simple refugee with no connections or a measure of affluence, or at least a visibility thereof? Because from my knowledge of caught Russian spies, all of them belong to two categories:
1) Some nondescript bloke, usually from Caucasus, sent in with an assassination weapon.
2) Some person with a bullshit cover life story that paints them as someone not from even Russia, and who runs some cover business on FSB money, and does the actual spy work by cozying up to people in power.
The first one, while could masquerade as a refugee, is easily tracked by being a refugee. And the second one should make a refugee even more suspicious.

And as for your "you can't" - that's what counter-intelligence services and refugee screening processes are for. Which, if dozens of uncovered Russian spies is an indication, work well enough to do their job in the times of peace, and so should do even better with people who go through the process of applying for a refuge.

Also, quite amusing how Russia crossing borders to "protect" their citizens is still even a concern after this war, especially for someone from a NATO country (or soon to be NATO country).

[Saradain]

Also, quite amusing how Russia crossing borders to "protect" their citizens is still even a concern after this war, especially for someone from a NATO country (or soon to be NATO country).

I'd like to think that it is finnish mentality, of being alone in this shit world is the reason why we don't feel quite entirely safe. It's a big change to have NATO guaranteed to annihilate russian forces in case of a war, when our independent history is all about internal and external threats alike, us standing alone against the dark that has always been Russia.

In the words of our former defense minister Jyri Häkämies:

Taking note of our geographical location, Finland's 3 biggest security threats are Russia, Russia and Russia.

We'll see how the finns think once it's done and finished.

[Azadina]

How can one spy on anything important by being a refugee? Especially be being a refugee from a country involved in spying, thus automatically under watch? Do you really think that there is a single spy who ever had a cover story of a simple refugee with no connections or a measure of affluence, or at least a visibility thereof? Because from my knowledge of caught Russian spies, all of them belong to two categories:
1) Some nondescript bloke, usually from Caucasus, sent in with an assassination weapon.
2) Some person with a bullshit cover life story that paints them as someone not from even Russia, and who runs some cover business on FSB money, and does the actual spy work by cozying up to people in power.
The first one, while could masquerade as a refugee, is easily tracked by being a refugee. And the second one should make a refugee even more suspicious.

And as for your "you can't" - that's what counter-intelligence services and refugee screening processes are for. Which, if dozens of uncovered Russian spies is an indication, work well enough to do their job in the times of peace, and so should do even better with people who go through the process of applying for a refuge.

Also, quite amusing how Russia crossing borders to "protect" their citizens is still even a concern after this war, especially for someone from a NATO country (or soon to be NATO country).

What makes you think they're immediately going to spy on something important, the moment they land here as refugee? Obviously not. They need to infiltrate the ladders of society first. Get well settled and networked. Then, some years down the line, when they might very well be in a position to spy on something important, they'll get pressured into doing so. How? Members of family left behind.

You see, there's more ways to be a spy than arrive with cover story, getting into work right away, or an assassin. And again, the screening costs money. Money that is better spent elsewhere.

That's without mentioning the part about RuZZia crossing borders to "defend" it's citizens from made up nonsense. Them even being here for any reason makes them agents of RuZZia to be used at a time of it's choosing.

[Gabriel]

How can one spy on anything important by being a refugee? Especially be being a refugee from a country involved in spying, thus automatically under watch? Do you really think that there is a single spy who ever had a cover story of a simple refugee with no connections or a measure of affluence, or at least a visibility thereof? Because from my knowledge of caught Russian spies, all of them belong to two categories:
1) Some nondescript bloke, usually from Caucasus, sent in with an assassination weapon.
2) Some person with a bullshit cover life story that paints them as someone not from even Russia, and who runs some cover business on FSB money, and does the actual spy work by cozying up to people in power.
The first one, while could masquerade as a refugee, is easily tracked by being a refugee. And the second one should make a refugee even more suspicious.

And as for your "you can't" - that's what counter-intelligence services and refugee screening processes are for. Which, if dozens of uncovered Russian spies is an indication, work well enough to do their job in the times of peace, and so should do even better with people who go through the process of applying for a refuge.

Also, quite amusing how Russia crossing borders to "protect" their citizens is still even a concern after this war, especially for someone from a NATO country (or soon to be NATO country).

For example in Finland, russia has bought land under the name of various business people, and built facilities that have accommodations for several tens of people. Facilities that are unoccupied most of the time, some with helipads built on the premise.

Hmm, what might these facilities be meant for?

Permanently ban all russian males from entering Finland even if they are seeking a refuge.

[Saradain]

For example in Finland, russia has bought land under the name of various business people, and built facilities that have accommodations for tens of people. Facilities that are unoccupied most of the time, some with helipads built on the premise.

Hmm, what might these facilities be meant for?

Permanently ban all russian males from entering Finland even if they are seeking a refuge.

WITH the locations built with military doctrines in mind, to conceal them as well as possible from sight, from land or air...

[Vladier]

What makes you think they're immediately going to spy on something important, the moment they land here as refugee? Obviously not. They need to infiltrate the ladders of society first. Get well settled and networked. Then, some years down the line, when they might very well be in a position to spy on something important, they'll get pressured into doing so. How? Members of family left behind.

You see, there's more ways to be a spy than arrive with cover story, getting into work right away, or an assassin. And again, the screening costs money. Money that is better spent elsewhere.

That's without mentioning the part about RuZZia crossing borders to "defend" it's citizens from made up nonsense. Them even being here for any reason makes them agents of RuZZia to be used at a time of it's choosing.

And by the time they do so, RuZZia might become just Russia. Putin is not eternal, and his cabal's power depends in a very large part on him. Especially with the weaknesses it's shorn by now

How much money do you think screening cost in comparison to what is needed to be spent on something else?

And again, RuZZia is not in a real position to attack even Ukraine right now. Finland's been paranoid about a potential invasion for years and was preparing accordingly. Frankly, this fear is of the same variety that Putin's regime breeds in Russians in regards to NATO, and is just unhealthy from an internal political point of view - just note how you still regard Russia as a threat even after its military failings and deciding to join NATO, this is almost textbook "enemy is both strong and weak" fascist rhetoric.

Also, Finland already has a Russian minority, as does, I am pretty sure, every country bordering Russia, as well as the US (more than a million, according the Wikipedia), Canada, Germany, Brazil and many, many more countries. Are you going to expel them if they are a threat just by being there? Or are you going to understand that "protecting Russian people in Ukraine" is just a convenient excuse by Putin to attack a country that he wanted to hold in his sphere of influence regardless of anything else and considered weak enough to consider his success guaranteed?

[Makabreska]

And by the time they do so, RuZZia might become just Russia. Putin is not eternal, and his cabal's power depends in a very large part on him. Especially with the weaknesses it's shorn by now

Putin will be gone, his ex-soviet pals that perceive NATO as threat will remain.

[MCMLXXXII]

It's a big if. If Putin dies but the doctrine remains. I wonder if the Russians can get away from it.
The irony of Gorbachev passing away this year.