Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

Nothing says adaptations can only come off complete stories.

Yet again, a restriction completely invented by you.


Also doesn't matter. You can have very loose adaptations, that doesn't mean they're not adaptations. You have no actual criteria to go by here as to the degree of faithfulness that is required to pass for adaptation or not.

If anything is "a made up story" here, it's your repeat insistence on non-existent standards of adaptation.

They only have the rights to the appendices. I have said this literally multiple times. The appendices are not a complete story.
So literally they are not adapting a novel like Lord of the Rings, where you have dialog, events and characters that are well defined.
I said this before and you keep ignoring it in order to make your argument.

Meaning, this is not like Lord of the Rings which adapted a complete story written in books.
This is a mostly made up story that only loosely follows the appendices.
In reality it is an "imagining" or "reimaginng" of events of the 2nd age.
It is not literally an adaptation of a complete work or series of stories of the 2nd age.

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What is wrong with that? An adaptation doesn't have to be canon. They are adapting the parts they have the rights to into a story. If it is mostly made up, your own words, then they are clearing adapting the non-made up parts, right? The only one getting offended here is yourself. Lol.

It is like the MCU compared to Comics. The comics are "canon" as they are the original source. The MCU adaptations are not canon because they only adapted some things from the comics. The industry, and wider world, doesn't use the restrictive definition of adaptation that you use.

See above. Literally they only have the rights to the appendices and to use those as "inspiration" for their own made up story set in Tolkien's 2nd age. You keep debating this but agreeing with it at the same time. Meaning these are possible ways for the events to have happened, but because there is no explicit source material on all of the events of the 2nd age, it is literally not an adaptation. Comic books with multiple issues and chapters are not a comparison for this, because Marvel owns the IP and can reinvent these stories and characters however they want.

You keep trying to throw around the word adaptation as if it is trying to follow a very detailed story when it isn't versus simply being a made up story with the rights to use characters and settings from Tolkien. That is literally all this is. And if you agree then what is the point of continuing this line of discussion?

[Triceron]

What gotcha am I trying to catch him in? Why would I think him saying that Rings of Power is not canon actually means that he thinks it is canon? You are doing the same t hing he is doing. Inventing an argument that exists only in your head. Just so you can argue. Lmao.

Which is exactly what you're doing too, do you not realize that?

It's the formulation of opinion. And the odd thing is, you actually agree with it, yet still arguing it on principle of non-canon stories can still be enjoyed, when that is a completely subjective matter which is the deriding point of why he doesn't like RoP to begin with. He doesn't like RoP because of it lacking faithfulness to the canon.

It's like someone saying they don't like the taste of pineapple because it's sour, and you reply with an observation that sour-tasting foods can be good too. Like, yes you made an observation, but there's no real point to it other than thinly-veiled gatekeeping. That is the context of your argument.

[Biomega]

They only have the rights to the appendices. I have said this literally multiple times. The appendices are not a complete story.
So literally they are not adapting a novel like Lord of the Rings, where you have dialog, events and characters that are well defined.

"They're not adapting a novel" is NOT THE SAME as "this is not an adaptation".

Don't pretend that was what you were saying. Because even if you were, that's an absolutely asinine point to make that was never in dispute to begin with, since no one claimed they were adapting a novel. Ever. Anywhere.

Meaning, this is not like Lord of the Rings which adapted a complete story written in books.

And nobody ever said "this is an adaptation like the Lord of the Rings" OR "this is an adaptation of a complete story written in books".

No one. Anywhere. Ever. Said. That.

In reality it is an "imagining" or "reimaginng" of events of the 2nd age.

You can call it that if you want, but that doesn't mean it's NOT an adaptation. Those are not mutually exclusive categorizations.

It is not literally an adaptation of a complete work or series of stories of the 2nd age.

Since those do not exist, it can't be. Which is why no one ever claimed it was.

But, again - this is NOT the same as saying "this is not an adaptation". Which is what you did, repeatedly.

[Triceron]

"They're not adapting a novel" is NOT THE SAME as "this is not an adaptation"

To be honest, it's an adaptation only through the most technical of definitions. Otherwise, it's pretty clear this is very loosely adapted, and if anything, merely 'inspired by'.

It's pretty close to the level of calling Dragonball an adaptation of Journey to the West. It is, and it isn't.

[InfiniteCharger]

"They're not adapting a novel" is NOT THE SAME as "this is not an adaptation".

Don't pretend that was what you were saying. Because even if you were, that's an absolutely asinine point to make that was never in dispute to begin with, since no one claimed they were adapting a novel. Ever. Anywhere.

I am distinguishing the fact that this series is based on the appendices which are not a complete novel or story.
Therefore, they have to mostly make up characters, dialogs, events, settings and everything else to tell a complete story.
You know that yet you sit here and try and pretend that this wasn't the point I was making when I literally laid it out the first time I said it.

And nobody ever said "this is an adaptation like the Lord of the Rings" OR "this is an adaptation of a complete story written in books".

No one. Anywhere. Ever. Said. That.

Because it isn't an adaptation of any book containing the complete story of the 2nd age.
That is simply a fact, versus Lord of the Rings literally being a complete work of literary fiction.
The fact that you cannot see the difference between the two and throw around the term "adaptation" as if those are the same is the problem.
Literally it is two completely different things.

You can call it that if you want, but that doesn't mean it's NOT an adaptation. Those are not mutually exclusive categorizations.


Since those do not exist, it can't be. Which is why no one ever claimed it was.

But, again - this is NOT the same as saying "this is not an adaptation". Which is what you did, repeatedly.

The fact is they only have the rights to the appendices which gives them the rights to use characters and places from Tolkien.
And the rest is a mostly made up story not based on any existing novel or complete work of fiction. That is a fact.
You are just arguing to argue as if that is literally not the case.

[kenn9530]

Sure, the Approved data proves me that, cute.

Any review above 6 is a lie and below 2 is a meme, simple as that, the show is bad by all critical points you can name it, with the exception of the visuals, even if you think otherwise

You get proven wrong on a regular basis, just because you dont like something doesnt mean plenty others are more than happy with the results, i dont need to think its there to see and proven by all data available that the show is good and you are just upset you cant prove otherwise.

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The data that is manipulated and rigged by Amazon omegalul, you didn't just say that with a straight face.

There is more than just amazon, the information is backed up by every single bit of data available, your opinion doesnt change the simple fact the show is still good.

[rhorle]

It's the formulation of opinion. And the odd thing is, you actually agree with it, yet still arguing it on principle of non-canon stories can still be enjoyed, when that is a completely subjective matter which is the deriding point of why he doesn't like RoP to begin with. He doesn't like RoP because of it lacking faithfulness to the canon.

What? You are inventing an entire in-depth argument that I never made just so you can complain about me.

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You keep trying to throw around the word adaptation as if it is trying to follow a very detailed story when it isn't versus simply being a made up story with the rights to use characters and settings from Tolkien. That is literally all this is. And if you agree then what is the point of continuing this line of discussion?

So then they adapted characters and settings from tolkien into a TV show. An adaptation doesn't require a novel to do so. It is why poems and other things have been adapted onto film. The movie 'The Nightmare Before Christmas' was adapted from a poem that was itself a play on 'Twas the Night Before Christmas' poem. You say Marvel can do adaptations because they own the rights to those stories and characters while arguing that Amazon can't when they own the rights to some stuff. Why the double standard? It also ignores how the MCU couldn't mention "mutants" and other stuff prior to Disney acquire 20th because of rights to adaptations of characters. Same reason why Sony holds the rights to Spider-man adaptations even though they don't to the comics. Marvel cut a deal with them to have Spider-man in the MCU but can't stream those movies on D+ (in the US at least) because Sony doesn't want it there.

[Biomega]

I am distinguishing the fact that this series is based on the appendices which are not a complete novel or story.

That's a VERY different point than "this is not an adaptation". A point which you have made repeatedly.

You know that yet you sit here and try and pretend that this wasn't the point I was making

What I KNOW is that you find yourself backed into a corner with untenable positions, and are now trying to back-pedal your way into a diversion.

Because it isn't an adaptation of any book containing the complete story of the 2nd age. That is simply a fact

A fact that was never in dispute.

This also isn't an adaptation of Harry Potter, the Kama Sutra, or Atlas Shrugged, either. That is simply a fact. A fact that was never in question, no one asked for, and no one needs, but a fact nonetheless.

So... cool.

The fact that you cannot see the difference between the two and throw around the term "adaptation" as if those are the same is the problem.

Just because the same categorical term covers different things doesn't mean those things are the same. What kind of lunacy is this? "You call apples 'plants' and you call oranges 'plants', AS IF APPLES AND ORANGES WERE THE SAME THING LMAO".

Holy shit, man, you are really going off the deep end here.

You are just arguing to argue as if that is literally not the case.

No.

No.

Nononono.

How about you stop it with the fucking misrepresentations and strawmen? Nobody is nor has ever argued that. You fucking lunatic. Geez man, this is making me ANGRY.

[Syegfryed]

You get proven wrong on a regular basis, just because you dont like something doesnt mean plenty others are more than happy with the results, i dont need to think its there to see and proven by all data available that the show is good and you are just upset you cant prove otherwise.

- Terrible acting
- nonsensical plot
- Garbage writing
- bad cast
- awful passing

"the show is good because manipulated data say it is"

See how you cannot name or show any good thing from the show, your argument is "data", this is the only proof that i need.

[Varodoc]

You get proven wrong on a regular basis, just because you dont like something doesnt mean plenty others are more than happy with the results, i dont need to think its there to see and proven by all data available that the show is good and you are just upset you cant prove otherwise.

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There is more than just amazon, the information is backed up by every single bit of data available, your opinion doesnt change the simple fact the show is still good.

Are you a thinking human being or a robot?

Can you formulate your own opinion on anything?

I couldn't care less that the totally-not-manipulated data shills for this show.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah I think without question Durin and Elrond's friendship friendship and the other dwarves are the saving grace of the show.

I'm not entirely sure how much sense their storyline makes though. The king Elve clearly knew without any doubt that Durin had discovered Mithrill, long before sending Elrond in to see if they'd discovered Mithrill. If he thought that Elrond might better be able to convince Durin to help then that should have been the story from the start.

Even that its awfully done.

You have Elrond being a scummy douche liar, that keep pretending he there because his friendship with Durin, and he is fucking lying the whole ordeal

the very first thing he do when he comes back is break the promise he made with his "friend" and tell about the mithrill to the old guy with point ears

Then, he tells Durin he lied, and Durin is super cool about it, despite being mad with him for simple not going to his weeding. This show is beyond stupid and defies people's ability to reason..

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And, have to say how nonsensical and bad is the plot that now elves need mithril otherwise they die, yet again another crap into the bloated plot of the show, that may not go anywhere

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It's pretty close to the level of calling Dragonball an adaptation of Journey to the West. It is, and it isn't.

I think this is the perfect analogy

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Don't forget such amazing lines like "I have a temptest inside me", or "give me the meat and give it to me raw".

Jesus christ, i forgot about those, so awful

Galadriel is just o insufferable that i almost block everything she says, like trying to order the queen around, she is basically a Karen

[kenn9530]

- Terrible acting
- nonsensical plot
- Garbage writing
- bad cast
- awful passing

"the show is good because manipulated data say it is"

See how you cannot name or show any good thing from the show, your argument is "data", this is the only proof that i need.

The data proves you wrong because far more ppl like it than dont simple as that, everything you say is an uneducated opinion, i can claim the tollien books themselves were written poorly full of holes and bad plotlines but you can still enjoy it regardless of what other ppl seem to think.

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Are you a thinking human being or a robot?

Can you formulate your own opinion on anything?

I couldn't care less that the totally-not-manipulated data shills for this show.

Its not just my opinion the show is good, its backed up by the data also so you are just proven wrong if you think something is bad.

[Syegfryed]

The data proves you wrong because far more ppl like it than dont simple as that, everything you say is an uneducated opinion, i can claim the tollien books themselves were written poorly full of holes and bad plotlines but you can still enjoy it regardless of what other ppl seem to think..

First of all, people like or don't like its no the only metric to decide if something is good or not, hell, its not even impartial, you can like bad and awful stuff and people can dislike good things, those are subjectives, you and other people can like RoP even if tis a garbage show, there is no problem in that, more fun for y'all.

Second, i didn't a thing about plotholes, yes, they exist, so you exposed another problem the show have, second, trying to claim "tolkien had problems too" is a bad non sequitur

[InfiniteCharger]

So then they adapted characters and settings from tolkien into a TV show. An adaptation doesn't require a novel to do so. It is why poems and other things have been adapted onto film. The movie 'The Nightmare Before Christmas' was adapted from a poem that was itself a play on 'Twas the Night Before Christmas' poem. You say Marvel can do adaptations because they own the rights to those stories and characters while arguing that Amazon can't when they own the rights to some stuff. Why the double standard? It also ignores how the MCU couldn't mention "mutants" and other stuff prior to Disney acquire 20th because of rights to adaptations of characters. Same reason why Sony holds the rights to Spider-man adaptations even though they don't to the comics. Marvel cut a deal with them to have Spider-man in the MCU but can't stream those movies on D+ (in the US at least) because Sony doesn't want it there.

Come on dude. You are just doing what you normally do which is constantly reiterating the same thing in a different way acting like you are changing facts. The point was Lord Of the Rings was a complete work of fiction with characters,dialogs, settings, scenes and events that could be "adapted". This series is based on rights to the appendices which is not a complete work of fiction so they had to make up most of those things. And they then added the places and characters that were in the appendices for which they had rights to that mostly made up story. That is completely not the same as adapting an existing complete work of fiction. To sit here and argue otherwise is nonsense.

You haven't disputed that or shown this to be incorrect or even disagreed.

The biggest distinction here is that an adaptation of a complete work of fiction has many points of comparison you can use to judge how accurate or faithful it is to the original work as canonical. While in the case of Rings of Power, the only source material is mostly a general outline or footnotes, which does not leave much to measure in terms of how accurate it is to canon. Even if they did stay 100% faithful to that outline of events and characters anything else they would have created from scratch would still not be canon. And that is because the original author who could decide what is and isn't canon is dead. And the Tolkien estate is not granting canon status to any new works of fiction based on Tolkiens 2nd age. That is the difference. That is the fundamental problem with this particular IP. Even the new animation being planned by WB based on the Rhorrim is not going to be canon either. This isn't a fairy tale or other work of fiction that was written 100s of years ago and out of copyright status. The Tolkien Estate still owns the rights to the books and as such will maintain those copyrights for perpetuity as long as the book continues to be published. And until they either provide guidance and or sponsor an authorized canonical set of stories or tales based on the 2nd age, anybody trying to do a second age story is going to have the same problem. And until then the only canonical reference to Tolkien will remain in those books.

All of that said, because this is Tolkien and so many people see it as a classic work of western literature and fiction, no matter what they do it is going to be scrutinized for how it blends in with Tolkien's world. And that is just what comes with trying to adapt something that is one of the most popular and well known written works of western fiction.

[rhorle]

Come on dude. You are just doing what you normally do which is constantly reiterating the same thing in a different way acting like you are changing facts.

Why would I have to change an argument if it still counters your claim? An adaptation does not require a complete work of fiction in order to be adapted. I am not arguing it is the same as type of adaptation. This is again you inventing things.

[InfiniteCharger]

That's a VERY different point than "this is not an adaptation". A point which you have made repeatedly.


What I KNOW is that you find yourself backed into a corner with untenable positions, and are now trying to back-pedal your way into a diversion.


A fact that was never in dispute.

This also isn't an adaptation of Harry Potter, the Kama Sutra, or Atlas Shrugged, either. That is simply a fact. A fact that was never in question, no one asked for, and no one needs, but a fact nonetheless.

So... cool.


Just because the same categorical term covers different things doesn't mean those things are the same. What kind of lunacy is this? "You call apples 'plants' and you call oranges 'plants', AS IF APPLES AND ORANGES WERE THE SAME THING LMAO".

Holy shit, man, you are really going off the deep end here.


No.

No.

Nononono.

How about you stop it with the fucking misrepresentations and strawmen? Nobody is nor has ever argued that. You fucking lunatic. Geez man, this is making me ANGRY.

Literally your entire point here it to tell me that you cannot see the literal difference in effort required to adapt a complete work of fiction versus adapting a set of footnotes. The appendices are literally a couple of short paragraphs, footnotes, sentences or outlines. My point from the beginning is that adapting the appendices is a different beast than adapting a complete work of fiction. You keep replying like that wasn't my point when I made that clear the first time. The fact that you can't or don't understand that is not my problem. It seems you just like to sit here and make up things to argue about while ignoring what I actually wrote.

Really this is just a pointless excuse in wasting time so lets just give it a rest.

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Why would I have to change an argument if it still counters your claim? An adaptation does not require a complete work of fiction in order to be adapted. I am not arguing it is the same as type of adaptation. This is again you inventing things.

You haven't countered my claim. That is the point. You just keep repeating yourself acting like you are actually proving something when you haven't actually contradicted anything I said.

[rhorle]

You haven't countered my claim. That is the point. You just keep repeating yourself acting like you are actually proving something when you haven't actually contradicted anything I said.

The fact you are no longer arguing that adaptions are required to be canon proves I, and others, have countered your claims. It is why you are now trying argue that the level of adaptation is important as if that was your original claim all along and "Full" versus "not-full" adaptation is what was being discussed.

[InfiniteCharger]

The fact you are no longer arguing that adaptions are required to be canon proves I, and others, have countered your claims. It is why you are now trying argue that the level of adaptation is important as if that was your original claim all along and "Full" versus "not-full" adaptation is what was being discussed.

Because I never said that. What I said is it wasn't canon. And I also said that it is not an adaptation the same as Lord of the Rings which is a complete work of fiction. Meaning this is mostly a made up story based on a few footnotes and paragraphs in the appendices. You simply have not grasped the concept that whatever they make up from the appendices is literally not canon because there is not enough written to go off of. That was the point. Not to mention the series itself says at the end of each episode that it is only "inspired" by Tolkien and not trying to literally be an adaptation of Tolkien because it can't as they don't have all the rights to even begin to "adapt" the second age. So like I said, these "rights" to the appendices literally only gives them access to certain characters and settings from Tolkien in whatever made up story they create. That's it. This is just you repeating yourself acting like you are changing what I have been saying when I haven't changed a thing. You haven't challenged what I said at all instead of trying to reword it to make it seem like you are saying something when you aren't. Again, you run and hide behind the word "adaptation" because you seem to be offended when I state the fact that most of this series is completely made up and not canon.

[Biomega]

Literally your entire point here it to tell me that you cannot see the literal difference in effort required to adapt a complete work of fiction versus adapting a set of footnotes.

Wrong.

My entire point is call it a loose adaptation if you will, it doesn't change the fact that it IS an adaptation. I'm not concerned with what it is an adaptation of, how well it adapts that, whether or not it adapts it better than something else, or whatever other tangents you want to go on.

My point is and always has been purely that you are wrong claiming "this isn't an adaptation.". Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else you've tacked on in your inane ramblings is not my argument, it's your invention.

My point from the beginning is that adapting the appendices is a different beast than adapting a complete work of fiction.

That's not what you said initially. Allow me:

There is no complete story of the second age that Tolkien wrote so it isn't an adaptation.

This was what I objected to.

You didn't say "this is different than adapting a complete work". You said "it isn't an adaptation". You didn't say "it isn't an adaptation of a novel", you didn't say "it isn't an adaptation of a complete work" or whatever else.

Don't lie.

The fact that you can't or don't understand that is not my problem.

I can only go by what you write. I have not reached the level of telepathy yet. If you don't want people to misunderstand you, perhaps you could be more precise in what you are saying.

Like saying "this isn't an adaptation of a novel" instead of "this isn't an adaptation."

It seems you just like to sit here and make up things to argue about while ignoring what I actually wrote.

Yeah, about "what you actually wrote..." See above.

[rhorle]

Because I never said that.

No you just keep repeating yourself. You say that it isn't canon but then say it is an "adaptation".
There is no complete story of the second age that Tolkien wrote so it isn't an adaptation.

Tell me where I said what they make up is canon? You keep arguing something that no one stated while denying the very things you've stated. Even in this post you are trying to argue that it isn't an adaptation while in your previous post you said it is an adaptation but just not one based on a full book. You are contradicting yourself in your zeal to not be wrong.