[Megathread] Star Citizen

[kenn9530]

It is always funny how often he avoids your points. Whatever game it is he goes 100% on the bullshit train making any excuse possible. I still remember him in the New World thread defending the game up and down. He seems to think any criticism must be corrected, not seeming to understand that a lot of people want this game to do well as for those of us who have played other space games like Eve Online, etc, that this is what a lot of us has always wanted. However we want the best game we can get and refuse not to call out the bullshit that surrounds this game and all the problems that it has, as well as to hold the people who make it to their word.

Cant avoid ppl making invalid points if i cant see them in the first place can I, there is too many ppl in this thread that dont want the game to do well or talk shit about everything its doing, all games deserve a chance and some can take a while after release to smooth out, like complaining about how long it takes to develop, GTA6 is on a 11-12 year development cycle so whats wrong about a game taking a while to develop.

[Kyanion]

Cant avoid ppl making invalid points if i cant see them in the first place can I

Invalid because kenn says so. Just don't pay any attention to kenn's quotes where kenn himself says the development started in 2011. No 2012. No wait it was 2013. 2017! That must be it. Except he then says 2012 again later. He can't even keep track of his own lies. It is the comedy gift we all love.

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there is too many ppl in this thread that dont want the game to do well or talk shit about everything its doing

How dare people be critical. We all must be a positive group that says no wrong about the great CIG and CR. Give them money! Buy stuff! Oh wait "donate" money or "pledge" money. Not a cash shop!

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all games deserve a chance

No, they don't. Some games get one shot to make that impression and then are forgotten. Some games just suck, that is life.

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and some can take a while after release to smooth out

And some can be in year 12 and are still in Alpha.

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like complaining about how long it takes to develop

Nah just when crowdfunded money is involved. No one cares how long it takes other games to make if they are being funded by a company willing to take the risk. This is crowdfunded money. Different.

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GTA6 is on a 11-12 year development cycle

They TOTALLY didn't release any other games in this 11-12 year window. And that is STILL less time than SC. Lolz.

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whats wrong about a game taking a while to develop.

Nothing. Unless the game is crowdfunded and promised multiple times to be out years ago.

[banmebaby]

Cant avoid ppl making invalid points if i cant see them in the first place can I, there is too many ppl in this thread that dont want the game to do well or talk shit about everything its doing, all games deserve a chance and some can take a while after release to smooth out, like complaining about how long it takes to develop, GTA6 is on a 11-12 year development cycle so whats wrong about a game taking a while to develop.

You already tried to spin that one before, yet it didn't stop you from quoting my posts not long after. Let’s face it, it’s just yet another pitiful excuse to avoid addressing the countless contradictions you have been spinning in this thread for years, you are so deeply invested on this, emotionally, and most likely financially too, that you feel the need to defend it at all costs against every tiny bit of criticism raised towards it, but evidently you just happen to be extremely incompetent at it, thus you just make shit up as you go, you lie and purposely misinterpret the points being presented, but as it turns out, due that very short memory of yours, you just fucking suck at that too, can’t even keep track of the bullshit you spewed all over the previous page, so it’s not that you can’t see my posts, or your own, it’s just its far more convenient to ignore the sad reality for someone like you.

… and for the last fucking time, it’s not just about “taking too long”, it’s about taking too long compared to the multiple release windows and reports about the project that they gave away to purposely bump the sales with using one of the most obscene p2w monetization schemes I’ve seen in gaming, while holding close to ZERO responsibility and consequences in case of failure.

[MrAnderson]

There seems to be some confusion indeed...

First off all, both CP2077 & Star Citizen pre-production dates given were " adamantly stated" by the lead-developers themselves, you'll find the information and source interviews at the Wikipedia pages, I'm just rolling with that.

Yes yes they were, but one given at the start of a project and the other given after the project was released. Context and Hindsight are important.

So it is also important to understand the reasons. So, Why do you think the CP2077 lead-dev said pre-production started in 2016 when there's leaks of a playable builds going as back as 2013?

Secondly, I wasn't being sarcastic or anything, I'm completely fine on setting 2013 as Cyberpunk development start if that's what you want, you can even go further back to the "first note written in toilet paper" for all I care... just remember it next time you go on about "StaR cITiZeN reAL deVeLOpmENT oNly STarTed aFTer 2016!".

Why would it be about "what I want"? The alpha build of 2013 is factual and lol at you trying to dismiss it by considering it as a "first note written in toilet paper".

I have no problem with the Dev of CP2077 saying that development started in 2016 though. Because I understand that he's not counting all the years of R&D and experimentation phase where dev's go back and forth trying to nail the fun and scope of their game. Something that happens in every big production game, the bigger and more ambitious (as in trying new things) the game the more experimentation it will require.

This is something that I've stated that happens pretty much with any company going for such ambitious games which those stuck in the "scam-incompetence-development hell" narrative can't accept.

Must be even harder now with all the GTA6 leaks pointing out to development going as back as 2014 and the budget of $2 Billion dollars.

Just like I alluded to about a year ago:

There's no "easy & fast" way to make innovative and ambitious AAA games. Requires a lot of work time and money and big studios to pull off.

There's a reason why GTA 6 is still in development 9 years after GTA5 released. The reason why RedDeadRedemption 2 took 8~ years. Mind you that Rockstar is a established company with multiple studios across the world and 2000 developers and both of those games are sequels that have a lot of prior work already done.

CIG has just recently reached the 720+ developers and keeps growing.

The only despair seems to be coming from those who can't understand simple facts of game development and have to conjure a "shitshow" inside their head as a way to cope with the harsh reality of not understanding what's going on.

So simple yet so hard for some to acknowledge, it's as if they've became too comfortable being in angry mode that they refuse to acknowledge the reality right in from them.

Rockstar, like many other big studios, has several teams working in several games at the same time. After all they have a workforce of thousands of developers in around 10 studios across the world. Read somewhere that some dev's where working on RDR2 ideas way back in 2008. Mostly stuff that didn't make it into RDR1.

Besides, a lot of the work from established studios previous games end up being used in the sequels. RDR2 was made thanks to the work done in RDR1, GTA5 thanks to the work done prior GTA's. GTA6 has been in development since 5 released on consoles and is iterating on stuff that didn't make into GTA5.

Previous work and experience gained developing a game doesn't get thrown away when doing the sequel. It continues on being improved and iterated.

Oh yes, because going around internet forums to flame people for criticizing a video game company is normal, and totally not toxic at all

Oh Myobi, you're the user who's probably been banned from this forum more times than anyone in this thread because you can't control that obsession with seeing Star Citizen collapse.

Is that what now? your 3rd or 4th account? The only reason you're not banned yet again is by sympathy and comedy reasons alone if I had to guess.

Nothing new I'm afraid. Star Citizen always had it's share of obsessed crazies that fall down the deep end and start living for the negativity and drama...

Jcr99, Beer4BeerGod, Derek, Dzunner...

Individuals that wasted years of their life crusading against a video-game because it didn't fulfilled their space nerd fantasy. Only to eventually accept that it was all for nothing while learning how to move on with their life and finally accepting that Star Citizen would just keep on being developed and supported by those who enjoy it.

Shouldn't be so hard to follow a game in development without falling into the negativity and drama spiral, but just like the GTA6 leaks drama showed, most gamers don't have the tools to deal with complexity and uncertainty of the craft and fell the need to fill in the gaps with baseless assumptions.

Shame really. But We'll get there, together, eventually.


Obligatory constructive video to add something. Tips for new (and old) players:

[banmebaby]

Yes yes they were, but one given at the start of a project and the other given after the project was released. Context and Hindsight are important.

So it is also important to understand the reasons. So, Why do you think the CP2077 lead-dev said pre-production started in 2016 when there's leaks of a playable builds going as back as 2013?

Maybe for the same reason that Chris Roberts stated that pre-production just started when he outsourced developers to develop the prototype as if nothing came before it, fuck if I know, or care about it, as I told you multiple times, I’m perfectly fine with the 2013 pre-production for Cyberpunk, it makes no difference to me.

Why would it be about "what I want"? The alpha build of 2013 is factual and lol at you trying to dismiss it by considering it as a "first note written in toilet paper".

I have no problem with the Dev of CP2077 saying that development started in 2016 though. Because I understand that he's not counting all the years of R&D and experimentation phase where dev's go back and forth trying to nail the fun and scope of their game. Something that happens in every big production game, the bigger and more ambitious (as in trying new things) the game the more experimentation it will require.

This is something that I've stated that happens pretty much with any company going for such ambitious games which those stuck in the "scam-incompetence-development hell" narrative can't accept.

Ah, see, you were finally right about something, there seems to be some confusion indeed, I didn’t try to dismiss it, or considered it as “first note written in toilet paper”, as you just quoted, I said, and let’s go slowly this time:

“you can even go further back to the "first note written in toilet paper" for all I care”

As in, you can go even further back from those 2013 prototypes, to the first note written in toilet paper, because honestly it matters not to me.

See, you and Keen seem to be under a very, very wrong impression that one of the biggest problems that people have with Star Citizen is “taking to much time to develop”, it’s not, it’s taking to long to develop considering Chris Roberts statements, on things such as release windows (2014… 2015… 2016…2017… ???) and development reports, such as this 2020 chairman letter:

“I want Squadron 42 to be finished and played by all of you, more than anyone. I can tell you that the team is in “close out” mode and we are actively looking to burn down our remaining tasks and focus on polishing gameplay.”

… as for these fringe cases that you keep bringing up as an attempt to somehow normalize Star Citizen development cycle, those are not crowdfunded, no one would give a shit if CiG took 50 years to develop Squadron 42 if Chris Roberts kept his mouth shut and used his own money.

Oh and also, old article but you might enjoy it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattper...ready-to-play/

“There’s no two ways about it, man. Star Citizen is nuts,” says Jesse Schell, a prominent game developer and professor at Carnegie Mellon University. “This thing is unusual in about five dimensions. . . . It is very rare to be doing game development for seven years—that’s not how it works. That’s not normal at all.”

... it's not just the "armchair developers" my dude.

Must be even harder now with all the GTA6 leaks pointing out to development going as back as 2014 and the budget of $2 Billion dollars.

Roflmao, yes, knowing that GTA 6 has $2 Billion of their own dollars budget ALLOCATED… and that a big chunk of that will be spent on marketing and not development like most of triple A games, really screws up my evil schemes against Star Citizen… dear fucking lord Anderson.

Oh Myobi, you're the user who's probably been banned from this forum more times than anyone in this thread because you can't control that obsession with seeing Star Citizen collapse.

Is that what now? your 3rd or 4th account? The only reason you're not banned yet again is by sympathy and comedy reasons alone if I had to guess.

Nothing new I'm afraid. Star Citizen always had it's share of obsessed crazies that fall down the deep end and start living for the negativity and drama...

Jcr99, Beer4BeerGod, Derek, Dzunner...

Individuals that wasted years of their life crusading against a video-game because it didn't fulfilled their space nerd fantasy. Only to eventually accept that it was all for nothing while learning how to move on with their life and finally accepting that Star Citizen would just keep on being developed and supported by those who enjoy it.

Shouldn't be so hard to follow a game in development without falling into the negativity and drama spiral, but just like the GTA6 leaks drama showed, most gamers don't have the tools to deal with complexity and uncertainty of the craft and fell the need to fill in the gaps with baseless assumptions.

Lol, I love how you keep saying that as if it’s some big secret that you just used that big brain of yours to solve… one of my early posts, for a more open discussion about the project, I invited you to join RPGCodex forum, which I mainly use, with my actual nickname… you, or anyone else, literally just had to type that shit into google my dude.

As for my account number, this is the only one I currently have, I asked a super mod to delete my account way before I made this one, it wasn’t banned, I did however circumvented a couple temporary bans on this one with a few alt accounts, and I’ll tell you right now, that the fact I went so long with accounts named like “notaltacc”, posting only after getting temporary bans and even openly admitting the fact that they were alt accounts, it’s sort of the reason why I asked my main account to be deleted in the first place, moderation here just doesn’t really work, and honestly shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

If you want to know more about me, make sure to hit me on dms But enough about me, what about you? You talk about obsessed crazies, wasting “years” of their lives on crusades… but dude, you have been here since 2015, shilling for a multi-million-dollar company that doesn’t give a shit about you, taking every criticism raised towards it as an insult towards yourself, going as far as directly insulting other users over fucking opinions…

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...6#post53597026

I don't give a F*** if you or anyone else likes it, what I give a F* is haters shitting on it because of personal grudges or petty reasons, twisting words out of context or going as low as lying to attack it.

Your reaction seems one of a depressed poor lowlifes who cant find strength to get a nice paying job, still trying to find a way to leave momy's house and complaining about expensive things that you don't even have to buy much less enjoy to have a fulfilling life .

because your dumb and a troll with nothing else but a grudge. Stop wasting everybody's time with useless goon rubish.

You're full of shit. Lying and deceit it's all you got.

Hahahah staling? You guys seing this shit? That's what I talk about being dishonest and full of bullshit.

Another pathetic display of intelectual dishonesty

And please keep your goon bullshit in the ed/sa shitholes.

Why does it always have to resort to blissful ignorance with the haters?

you are full of shit, like most of the kid's who are angry with Chris Roberts because he "broke his promise" you have no problem in lying and deceiving to get your way.

It seems to me that the problem is that you can't manage your feelings. Your heart generated hype that your brain can't handle.

You have no capacity to think clear and for yourself.

You and the other haters with an axe to grind , dumb as dumbells

Basicaly you're another entitled brat

Why does it seems im discussing with 5 year olds?

you lack the knowledge and the intelligence to see further than what your red tinted binoculars allow you to.

I highly doubt I've been banned from this forum more times than anyone else, I mean, at least I'm not going around flaming people in the internet over their opinions on video games... which begs the question, what the actual fuck you on about? Don't you think that maybe it's time to get the fuck down of that high horse and have a smell of your own hypocrisy? Also, I don't want to see the project fail you goofball.... you need to understand that criticizing certain aspects of something it’s not the same as wanting it to fail, and that criticizing people like you and kenn it’s not criticizing Star Citizen.

Edited: Oh, and a little side-note here, without wanting to make this awkward somehow, I highly doubt that anyone besides you remembers what the fuck a Myobi is, so... thank you, i guess? But, that “Star Citizen hater” list of yours kind of worries me.

Shame really. But We'll get there, together, eventually.

I hope we all live that long my friend.

Edited: Damnit, almost forgot about the obligatory youtube video, sorry!



Many views, much comments, very engagement! So it must be good...

[Cloverfield]

I have no problem with the Dev of CP2077 saying that development started in 2016 though. Because I understand that he's not counting all the years of R&D and experimentation phase where dev's go back and forth trying to nail the fun and scope of their game. Something that happens in every big production game, the bigger and more ambitious (as in trying new things) the game the more experimentation it will require.

This is something that I've stated that happens pretty much with any company going for such ambitious games which those stuck in the "scam-incompetence-development hell" narrative can't accept.

Except CP2077 was actually released in December 2020 (and barring the usual pre sales, CDPR did it with its own funds; customers only had to pay after release with reviews available). Whereas SC is still in Alpha and grossly incomplete after all this time in the year of the lord 2022 (and Chris Roberts has been doing that with our money instead since 2012). The difference is even more jarring if we prefer to consider CP2077 start in 2013 or earlier, when compared to SC´s 2010-2011.

Which brings me to your last bit there: Bigger and ambitious games take time indeed, but that is not the only reason for taking a long time: Incompetence and potential fraud are also a very common reason for delays and non delivery. Given SC extremely poor track record of continuous failed announcements and estimates over 10 years while keeping all the money generated due to the hype of said announcements, and the very sub par status of SC after all that time, this incompetence and potential fraud scenario is quite a serious contender here.

Here below you have a great exemple of how things can take a long time because there is incompetence and/or fraud. The pattern of announcing a revolutionary idea or product, then asking for money, then not delivering it (or deliver an extremely sub par thing instead) but keeping all the money (and then repeating the cycle ad nauseam or until they get caught) is fairly common place in incompetence and/or fraud. CDPR and CP2077 did not do this, but Chris Roberts and CIG did.

We may recognize Chris Roberts and CIG in this, almost instantly:

[MrAnderson]

Maybe for the same reason that Chris Roberts stated that pre-production just started when he outsourced developers to develop the prototype as if nothing came before it, fuck if I know, or care about it, as I told you multiple times, I’m perfectly fine with the 2013 pre-production for Cyberpunk, it makes no difference to me.

So what is that reason? Considering the context? I'm trying to get you to figure it out by yourself. I can explain it to you but I can't make you understand.

Ah, see, you were finally right about something, there seems to be some confusion indeed, I didn’t try to dismiss it, or considered it as “first note written in toilet paper”, as you just quoted, I said, and let’s go slowly this time:

“you can even go further back to the "first note written in toilet paper" for all I care”

That wasn't the original quote or context though, this one was:

It’s fine to set the development start as far as when the first note about the game was written in toilet paper, however,

If the 2013 alpha build was playable one has to consider that the "first note about the game written in toilet paper" could've been written back in 2012 or even 2011 no?

See, you and Keen seem to be under a very, very wrong impression that one of the biggest problems that people have with Star Citizen is “taking to much time to develop”, it’s not, it’s taking to long to develop considering Chris Roberts statements, on things such as release windows (2014… 2015… 2016…2017… ???) and development reports, such as this 2020 chairman letter:

“I want Squadron 42 to be finished and played by all of you, more than anyone. I can tell you that the team is in “close out” mode and we are actively looking to burn down our remaining tasks and focus on polishing gameplay.”

… as for these fringe cases that you keep bringing up as an attempt to somehow normalize Star Citizen development cycle, those are not crowdfunded, no one would give a shit if CiG took 50 years to develop Squadron 42 if Chris Roberts kept his mouth shut and used his own money.

But Chris Roberts used is own money though, he had to buy cryengine license remember, pay artists to do concept art for the first ships, pay them to model them in 3D and so on.

Before the kickstarter campaign launch he invested a lot of money and time of his own though. Which worked out since the kickstart campaign was a huge success, much more than what they anticipated. But hey, Wing Commander and Freelancer dude.

That campaign literally like casting a huge net over the gaming ocean, space nerds and gamers in general. Of course when casting such a huge net you're bound to catch some debris, old boots and toxic barrels. Those who have no place in such projects are bound to get thrown out or left behind if they can't adapt.
As we well know, kickstart and crowdfunding games in development is an entirely optional endeavour made by willing and knowledgable adults. But certainly not for everyone.

“There’s no two ways about it, man. Star Citizen is nuts,” says Jesse Schell, a prominent game developer and professor at Carnegie Mellon University. “This thing is unusual in about five dimensions. . . . It is very rare to be doing game development for seven years—that’s not how it works. That’s not normal at all.”

... it's not just the "armchair developers" my dude.

Name doesn't ring a bell but that just shows he probably left the industry long ago or never worked in an AAA game in his life. Probably why he ended up teaching.

Roflmao, yes, knowing that GTA 6 has $2 Billion of their own dollars budget ALLOCATED… and that a big chunk of that will be spent on marketing and not development like most of triple A games, really screws up my evil schemes against Star Citizen… dear fucking lord Anderson.

But the "mUh MoSt ExPeNsIvE aDn LoNgEsT gAmE eVeR" narrative...Think of the narrative!

I asked a super mod to delete my account way before I made this one, it wasn’t banned, I did however circumvented a couple temporary bans on this one with a few alt accounts

That's just sad though. What's the trouble in waiting your time like everyone else? Ah right, impatience and unable to wait things out. No wonder you feel such grievance for a game in development that you didn't even backed. Suffering by proxy.

There's no high horse here though. If your participation consists exclusively in toxicity and drama for the sake of being angry it's only natural that others that like to post more informative and constructive views might look elevated.

You see, I like to play, discuss and follow the development of the game this thread is about which is why I post here. You're clearly interested in this game on the deep end, if it's because you want to play it or want to see it fail it doesn't really matter to anyone but you.

that criticizing certain aspects of something it’s not the same as wanting it to fail

One can criticize any game or product though. One or two times? Sure. Crying for years on end? Even Derek learned to move on lol. Making almost a hobby out of it that you can't even wait out your bans doesn't seem healthy though.

Gaming is about having fun, it's why we play games. If you're using it to release negativity and/or depression your in a dead end hitting your head against the wall for nothing. Even Derek figured that out.

So, yes, Star Citizen started as a very ambitious kickstart project that evolved into making 2 very ambitious and complex games which many people were/are eager to play so because of that they get a lot of support and money which they need because to make such ambitious games they need to open studios and keep paying their devs and so on. It will keep on being developed and iterated and enjoyed by it's community until something better comes along. That's pretty much it.

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Except CP2077 was actually released in December 2020

After being delayed for like 4 times (that we know off). Extremely buggy, missing several features and with a reduced scope. Removed from Console store. Company stock fall down. Sued by Investors.

Everything points that the game needed to be in development for 1 or 2 more years though.

(and barring the usual pre sales, CDPR did it with its own funds;

Actually no, they also got a hefty fund from Polish Government.

customers only had to pay after release with reviews available). Whereas SC is still in Alpha and grossly incomplete after all this time in the year of the lord 2022 (and Chris Roberts has been doing that with our money instead since 2012). The difference is even more jarring if we prefer to consider CP2077 start in 2013 or earlier, when compared to SC´s 2010-2011.

Customers pay early or later as they want. They pre-order or kickstart or buy into early-access games by their own choice. They are not forced to do so.

SC is and has been available to play for free by everyone who wishes to do so several times a year. Doesn't get more transparent than that.

Which brings me to your last bit there: Bigger and ambitious games take time indeed, but that is not the only reason for taking a long time: Incompetence and potential fraud are also a very common reason for delays and non delivery. Given SC extremely poor track record of continuous failed announcements and estimates over 10 years while keeping all the money generated due to the hype of said announcements, and the very sub par status of SC after all that time, this incompetence and potential fraud scenario is quite a serious contender here.

Oh a "doomsday conspiracy" one. Been a while since we got a Derek disciple in here.

Ok dude, When/If the company collapses and the dev's go to jail for fraud we'll get back to you.

Until then, better focus on the real world.

But If you wanna spend your time making a FBI list for the most wanted dev's and companies for the crimes of Releasing a Game in an Unfinished State or Taking Too Much Time To Release A Game I suggest you make your own thread in gaming discussion.

[Golgot]

There's no high horse here though. If your participation consists exclusively in toxicity and drama for the sake of being angry it's only natural that others that like to post more informative and constructive views might look elevated.

Nice horse armour.

This thread really is full of gold.

[Kyanion]

You see, I like to play, discuss and follow the development of the game this thread is about which is why I post here.

Mmmhmm, not a paid shill, not a cultist, not here to spread toxicity (as your wall of quotes that banmebaby posted from you). Nope. Just a good ol honest forum poster with no ulterior motives and here to have a civil discussion right?

[qwerty123456]

"Dev probably not dev enough and is probably a failure because he teaches."

"Everyone who spent money on the kickstarter can't be pissed cause they will eventually get a product even if its totally different than what they were sold."


Still waiting on a reason why they can't release the single player yet.

[banmebaby]

So what is that reason? Considering the context? I'm trying to get you to figure it out by yourself. I can explain it to you but I can't make you understand.

Lol! You are trying to make me understand? Dude, it’s like the fourth time I told you that I don’t care, it could be for multiple reasons, not keeping track of it, not finding the previous work done on it relevant enough to count as pre-production, could be lying about it, fuck if I know or care about it. I’m just happy that we finally agree on something, that Star Citizen pre-production started around the time that Chris Roberts said it did, that’s what’s important to me.

That wasn't the original quote or context though, this one was:

Yes, it’s fine to set the development as far as when the first note about the game was written in toilet paper for all I care, as long as we apply the same standard to other projects as well. How is that dismissing or calling the prototype you shared “toilet paper”? You are focusing to much on your own misinterpretation to squeeze out an argument out of it.

If the 2013 alpha build was playable one has to consider that the "first note about the game written in toilet paper" could've been written back in 2012 or even 2011 no?

Yes, yes! Thank fucking lord, see, you do understand after all, yes, it could have been written back in 2012, 2011, 2010, fuck if I know or care about it. Just like Star Citizen, Chris Roberts stated that the pre-production started in 2010, when he outsourced developers to build the prototype… but how much was there already before that?

But Chris Roberts used is own money though, he had to buy cryengine license remember, pay artists to do concept art for the first ships, pay them to model them in 3D and so on.

Before the kickstarter campaign launch he invested a lot of money and time of his own though. Which worked out since the kickstart campaign was a huge success, much more than what they anticipated. But hey, Wing Commander and Freelancer dude.

That campaign literally like casting a huge net over the gaming ocean, space nerds and gamers in general. Of course when casting such a huge net you're bound to catch some debris, old boots and toxic barrels. Those who have no place in such projects are bound to get thrown out or left behind if they can't adapt.
As we well know, kickstart and crowdfunding games in development is an entirely optional endeavour made by willing and knowledgable adults. But certainly not for everyone.

Lol! Dear fucking lord I can’t believe this shit… you know exactly what people mean when stating when stating that companies are using their own resources to develop their own games, spare me from these mental gymnastics… and of course it’s fucking optional, how is that even a point? Where have you seen people criticizing Star Citizen for forcing people to give them money? You are just fishing now.

If the 2013 alpha build was playable one has to consider that Name doesn't ring a bell but that just shows he probably left the industry long ago or never worked in an AAA game in his life. Probably why he ended up teaching.

See, now that’s being dismissive. That’s the founder of Schell Games, has been around for 20 years, one of the oldest and fairly successful indie game studios still around.

It’s amazing how there is always an excuse to just completely discard this sort of feedback, “you are just an armchair developer you don’t know what you are talking about”, “you might be a experienced developer but you never really worked in triple A industry!”, “you might have worked on triple A industry but you don’t work for CiG so you don’t know what your talking about”… :^)

But the "mUh MoSt ExPeNsIvE aDn LoNgEsT gAmE eVeR" narrative...Think of the narrative!

Zzzz…

… and for the last fucking time, it’s not just about “taking too long”, it’s about taking too long compared to the multiple release windows and reports about the project that they gave away to purposely bump the sales with using one of the most obscene p2w monetization schemes I’ve seen in gaming, while holding close to ZERO responsibility and consequences in case of failure.

See, you and Keen seem to be under a very, very wrong impression that one of the biggest problems that people have with Star Citizen is “taking to much time to develop”, it’s not, it’s taking to long to develop considering Chris Roberts statements, on things such as release windows (2014… 2015… 2016…2017… ???) and development reports”

I’m starting to believe that you are far from right person to help anyone figuring out shit at all.

That's just sad though. What's the trouble in waiting your time like everyone else? Ah right, impatience and unable to wait things out. No wonder you feel such grievance for a game in development that you didn't even backed. Suffering by proxy.

There's no high horse here though. If your participation consists exclusively in toxicity and drama for the sake of being angry it's only natural that others that like to post more informative and constructive views might look elevated.

You see, I like to play, discuss and follow the development of the game this thread is about which is why I post here. You're clearly interested in this game on the deep end, if it's because you want to play it or want to see it fail it doesn't really matter to anyone but you.

“That’s just sad though.” says the guy that has been active in this thread for 8 years throwing insults from left to right at anyone who he disagrees with while preaching about toxicity and drama to someone having a giggle meming on the project =)

Here, allow me to repost this again, make sure you give it a good look before you start lecturing anyone else about toxic behavior:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...6#post53597026

Also, c’mon dude, repeatedly calling people ignorant while slapping random SC YouTube videos at the end of it to avoid infractions isn’t considered as a “discussion” my dude.

Say what you will, but at least I don’t need to hide what am actually doing around here while pretending to have some sort of high moral ground to preach at others from you silly potato.

One can criticize any game or product though. One or two times? Sure. Crying for years on end? Even Derek learned to move on lol. Making almost a hobby out of it that you can't even wait out your bans doesn't seem healthy though.
Gaming is about having fun, it's why we play games. If you're using it to release negativity and/or depression your in a dead end hitting your head against the wall for nothing. Even Derek figured that out.
So, yes, Star Citizen started as a very ambitious kickstart project that evolved into making 2 very ambitious and complex games which many people were/are eager to play so because of that they get a lot of support and money which they need because to make such ambitious games they need to open studios and keep paying their devs and so on. It will keep on being developed and iterated and enjoyed by it's community until something better comes along. That's pretty much it.

Why do you even care for how long people criticize an on-going development?

But you can apply that same logic to yourself, why are you wasting time here insulting people who supposedly didn’t even back the game or don’t know shit about it, instead of just enjoying the game that you supposedly have so much fun playing? Just move on dude, go play, have fun, if CiG is everything you claim to be, they (hopefully) will soon prove us all wrong =)

Also, I do have to say, that the desperation of you making this personal is fucking hilarious, toxicity! drama! negativity! depression! infractions! Dude, don’t worry about it, I’m just another random internet dude poking fun at a video game, no need to get triggered over it, it’s like I just took a piss on your fruit loops or something, chill down friend…

Edited: Shit, almost forgot the YouTube Video, Angry Joe take on it:

@499s

[Cloverfield]

After being delayed for like 4 times (that we know off). Extremely buggy, missing several features and with a reduced scope. Removed from Console store. Company stock fall down. Sued by Investors.

I think you have just made my point for me . A company that uses its own funds has full prerogative to decide when, how and in what terms they release a product. If they do not do well they can indeed be accountable and liable to banks, shareholders and the opportunity cost of having done well in a different venture.

But they do so on their own dime and risk.

Chris Roberts and CIG on the other hand are doing all that on ours. Given the (crowd)funds we are providing CIG with are supposed to be exclusively aimed towards the development of SC and SQ42, and there is no expressed delivery guarantees, we are the only party liable here if the product is misrepresented, turns out crap or, god forbid, is not even delivered.

Actually no, they also got a hefty fund from Polish Government.

- CDPR got 7 millions from the Polish government and CP2077 development cost was of around 300 millions, marketing included.
- CIG got 500 millions from us and by the end of 2022 it would have spend roughly that amount. And counting.

Customers pay early or later as they want. They pre-order or kickstart or buy into early-access games by their own choice. They are not forced to do so.

SC is and has been available to play for free by everyone who wishes to do so several times a year. Doesn't get more transparent than that.

People were never forced to put money into the Theranos, Madoff, or Keely Motors frauds either, and those were also as "transparent" as can be for many years, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

The fact remains that, unlike Star Citizen, CP2077 was developed and actually released on CDPR own dime and risk. Whereas SC is still in Alpha, grossly incomplete after all this time in the year of the lord 2022 and Chris Roberts is doing all that with our money instead.

Oh a "doomsday conspiracy" one. Been a while since we got a Derek disciple in here.

Heh, when you need to resort to ad hominem like this to discredit other arguments it usually reconfirms that your own are severely lacking I am afraid.

Ok dude, When/If the company collapses and the dev's go to jail for fraud we'll get back to you.

I suspect that is also what many believers or insiders of the frauds mentioned above probably said for a long time so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . But that is by the by, the point is really simple though: You seem to say that SC is taking so long and so much money because it is "big and ambitious". But, as pointed out with real life exemples that went on for years, that is far from being the only reason for things to take such a long time and so much money: Incompetence and potential fraud are also a very common cause for delays and non delivery.

Now, if this was a case of just a slip or two we would offer the benefit of the doubt, but given Chris Roberts and CIG extremely poor track record of continuous failed announcements and estimates over 10 years while keeping all our money, generated due to the hype of said announcements, and the very sub par status of SC after all that time, it is only reasonable that this incompetence and potential fraud scenario becomes quite a serious contender here.

[MrAnderson]

Mmmhmm, not a paid shill, not a cultist, not here to spread toxicity (as your wall of quotes that banmebaby posted from you). Nope. Just a good ol honest forum poster with no ulterior motives and here to have a civil discussion right?

Posting in the thread of a video-game one plays and enjoy is what normal gamers do as much as you try to normalise that negative obsession of yours I can assure you it's not the norm between gamers.

"Dev probably not dev enough and is probably a failure because he teaches."
"Everyone who spent money on the kickstarter can't be pissed cause they will eventually get a product even if its totally different than what they were sold."
Still waiting on a reason why they can't release the single player yet.

I don't recognize his name and I don't think I've ever played any game made by him. Have you? Anything worthy?

As for why they can't release the single player yet. Same reason why Bethesda can't release Starfield or Rockstar can't release GTA6 etc. They're not ready yet.

Lol! You are trying to make me understand? Dude, it’s like the fourth time I told you that I don’t care, it could be for multiple reasons, not keeping track of it, not finding the previous work done on it relevant enough to count as pre-production, could be lying about it, fuck if I know or care about it. I’m just happy that we finally agree on something, that Star Citizen pre-production started around the time that Chris Roberts said it did, that’s what’s important to me.

Yes, it’s fine to set the development as far as when the first note about the game was written in toilet paper for all I care, as long as we apply the same standard to other projects as well. How is that dismissing or calling the prototype you shared “toilet paper”? You are focusing to much on your own misinterpretation to squeeze out an argument out of it.

Yes, yes! Thank fucking lord, see, you do understand after all, yes, it could have been written back in 2012, 2011, 2010, fuck if I know or care about it. Just like Star Citizen, Chris Roberts stated that the pre-production started in 2010, when he outsourced developers to build the prototype… but how much was there already before that?

Glad we made some progress. We finally can all accept that "game development time" can vary depending when you ask and who you ask because it can be open to interpretation. Depending on what one considers "actual game development" or "pre-production" "toilet paper" whatever.

So, The CP2077 dev who said Cyberpunk development started in 2016 wasn't lying just like when someone says that actual Star Citizen development started in 2015/16. What they mean it's when the core final scope was nailed down and the teams started working towards that vision. As one can guess, most studios when revealing their "development timelines" don't take into account the "first note about the game" because by then it could've been just another prototype like many others that lead nowhere.

Along with acknowledging that said pre-production stages can take a long ass time and extend for many years. That scope change, tech R&D etc are part of making new games and that those can bring added uncertainty the more ambitious or "out-of-the-box" the game is. Not unheard of in big game dev productions.

Lol! Dear fucking lord I can’t believe this shit… you know exactly what people mean when stating when stating that companies are using their own resources to develop their own games, spare me from these mental gymnastics… and of course it’s fucking optional, how is that even a point? Where have you seen people criticizing Star Citizen for forcing people to give them money? You are just fishing now.

I think you have just made my point for me . A company that uses its own funds has full prerogative to decide when, how and in what terms they release a product. If they do not do well they can indeed be accountable and liable to banks, shareholders and the opportunity cost of having done well in a different venture.

This might come as a surprise but money is money, doesn't matter where it comes from. What it matters is the terms attached to it. If it comes from one single private investor, a country or a million of backers. What it matters is the terms of the investment.

As long as the company full-fills what's agreed when the investment money was given it's theirs to use as they see fit.

So, in that way, CIG IS using their own money and just because they are a crowdfunded company doesn't mean they are obligated to release a rushed game to meet an artificial date or that they need to cater specifically to what one backer or investor wants. They are all entitled to the game Chris Roberts/CIG is making, but they aren't entitled to dictate how the money is used or how development is done. That's just the way it is.

See, now that’s being dismissive. That’s the founder of Schell Games, has been around for 20 years, one of the oldest and fairly successful indie game studios still around.

It’s amazing how there is always an excuse to just completely discard this sort of feedback, “you are just an armchair developer you don’t know what you are talking about”, “you might be a experienced developer but you never really worked in triple A industry!”, “you might have worked on triple A industry but you don’t work for CiG so you don’t know what your talking about”… :^)

His name doesn't ring a bell and neither Schell Games. I don't think I've ever played any of his games. Have you?

“That’s just sad though.” says the guy that has been active in this thread for 8 years throwing insults from left to right at anyone who he disagrees with while preaching about toxicity and drama to someone having a giggle meming on the project =)

Oh... I'm so sorry that posting facts and videos that contradict that sad doomsday narrative of yours. Sorry for posting videos of gameplay loops. Sorry for posting about development and patches. Sorry for pointing out that player cap wasn't reduced to 40 back in the day. Sorry to point out that whole argument was a waste of time. As in development things are bound to improve as things work out. Again, sorry that the player cap was extended to 100+. Sorry because the company didn't collapsed. Sorry that Chris Roberts wasn't arrested.
Sorry for posting videos of players having fun playing Star Citizen. Sorry for posting videos with tips and tricks for new players. Also, sorry for pointing out how the funding keeps increasing every year along with player engagement and concurrency.

So Sorry.

I don’t need to hide what am actually doing around here

And what would that be? I'm genuine curious what disgruntled gamers think they are accomplishing by obsessing with games they don't enjoy or see any future with.

Specially since year after year their crusade of negativity and toxicity only gets more and more pathetic as the game improves and it's playerbase grows.
I mean Derek and Co managed to grew out of it so there's hope for anyone. Hopefully we'll all be here when the dissonance finally hits them too. Best of luck!

Meanwhile in game development land, new weekly video is up:


And sound advice from an "old game dev" (this one has actually worked in several titles I've played) which youtube channel was found thanks to the whole GTA6 Leak Drama thing:

Context! Wise words

Also another good one: Delays In Games


Worthy sub!

Also, speaking of delays in games, latest AAGD post: Waiting for GTA 6

https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/...nine-years-now

[Revamp Man]

Expected a new road map announcement of "hey guys we got the visor reflection working" or something and it's just the two resident "no guys it's coming I swear and it's awesome" people arguing against common sense

[Kyanion]

Posting in the thread of a video-game one plays and enjoy is what normal gamers do as much as you try to normalise that negative obsession of yours I can assure you it's not the norm between gamers.

I note that you did not say you are here to have a civil discussion. Speaking of negative discussion you are aware of how toxic you've been in this thread over the years, right?

- - - Updated - - -

So, The CP2077 dev who said Cyberpunk development started in 2016 wasn't lying just like when someone says that actual Star Citizen development started in 2015/16.

Yeah it just makes the person saying SC development didn't start until 2015/2016 wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

This might come as a surprise but money is money, doesn't matter where it comes from. What it matters is the terms attached to it. If it comes from one single private investor, a country or a million of backers. What it matters is the terms of the investment.

So, in that way, CIG IS using their own money and just because they are a crowdfunded company doesn't mean they are obligated to release a rushed game to meet an artificial date or that they need to cater specifically to what one backer or investor wants. They are all entitled to the game Chris Roberts/CIG is making, but they aren't entitled to dictate how the money is used or how development is done. That's just the way it is.

If you think a crowdfunded game is viewed in the same light as a company using their own money to make a game then I don't know what to tell you. It is such a dishonest comparison (which you're well aware of) that there is nothing more to say. You're flat out fucking wrong here.

- - - Updated - - -

Specially since year after year their crusade of negativity and toxicity only gets more and more pathetic as the game improves and it's playerbase grows.
I mean Derek and Co managed to grew out of it so there's hope for anyone. Hopefully we'll all be here when the dissonance finally hits them too. Best of luck!

Says the person with a page of quoted toxic posts. And who is on the crusade again?

[NatePsy]

What I find amusing is 3.18 is Q3 but not a single build up on PTU even though it's closing in on the start of Q4. What a mess.

[MrAnderson]

I note that you did not say you are here to have a civil discussion. Speaking of negative discussion you are aware of how toxic you've been in this thread over the years, right?

One doesn't have to say so, one does so like normal gamers do while talking about the games they enjoy. Unfortunately It's only a novelty in this thread because discussion usually gets corrupted by same toxic posters who have nothing to add since they don't even play the game.

Yeah it just makes the person saying SC development didn't start until 2015/2016 wrong.

About as wrong as the CP2077 Dev who said Cyberpunk development didn't start until 2016.

If you think a crowdfunded game is viewed in the same light as a company using their own money to make a game then I don't know what to tell you. It is such a dishonest comparison (which you're well aware of) that there is nothing more to say. You're flat out fucking wrong here.

Doesn't matter how it's viewed, if I'm ok with it and you're not that is absolutely irrelevant. Just because a project is Crowdfunded doesn't mean it has to operate within special rules. It can have the same leeway as any other studio to develop their game at their own pace without the need to be rushed if it's within their ability.

Says the person with a page of quoted toxic posts. And who is on the crusade again?

Obsession as an hobby is indeed very sad. Imagine having that kind of dedication but for something worthy. Such a waste of existence.

[Kyanion]

One doesn't have to say so, one does so like normal gamers do while talking about the games they enjoy. Unfortunately It's only a novelty in this thread because discussion usually gets corrupted by same toxic posters who have nothing to add since they don't even play the game.

Playing the game is not a pre-requisite for posting here. Get off the fucking high horse. You are saying "Discussion in football threads get corrupted by same toxic posters who have nothing to add since they don't even play the game."

Again who is the one that has a host of toxic quotes? Oh yeah that'd be you

- - - Updated - - -

About as wrong as the CP2077 Dev who said Cyberpunk development didn't start until 2016.

Let's focus on SC. Development started in 2010. It is nearing 2023. CP2077 actually released a game. SC has failed to do so.

Doesn't matter how it's viewed, if I'm ok with it and you're not that is absolutely irrelevant. Just because a project is Crowdfunded doesn't mean it has to operate within special rules. It can have the same leeway as any other studio to develop their game at their own pace without the need to be rushed if it's within their ability.

You know what I had a huge thing typed out to reply, but fuck it. View it however wrongly you want. If you think a crowdfunded game is the same as a game being made internally by a company using their own money, go ahead and believe that warped dream.

[kenn9530]

What I find amusing is 3.18 is Q3 but not a single build up on PTU even though it's closing in on the start of Q4. What a mess.

Whats more amusing is the lack of ability to understand anything like you have just proven, they do an update when its ready not just because.

Also for all those concerned a company like rockstar for example is not using thier own resources to develop the game, they are using money from the players just like where most money comes from in game development, they get the money from the players in one way and use it to develop other games, the only time a company might use its funds to develop a game would be the first ever game a company creates but it still gets that money back from the players.

[Kyanion]

Whats more amusing is the lack of ability to understand anything like you have just proven, they do an update when its ready not just because.

Yup they are the one with the lack of ability to understand anything. How many times did they provide dates again and miss them? Ooh yeah better not talk about that, it makes your side look fucking terrible. Lolz.