Realm First Herbalism after just 12 minutes into WOTLK Live?

[tomten]

"clever use of game mechanics" generally still uses an exploit, just not in an intentionally abusive manner. Blizzard deems things "exploiting" after intent is factored in.

Again, the definition changes whenever blizzard feels like enforcing it, until then, its still just clever use of game mechanics.
Nothing else matters. You can't take one case and use it as predicant, because blizzard themselves are not consistent, at all, not even a little bit. Its an exploit when blizzard says so until then? Its only clever use of game mechanics, you dont have to like it... But thats the reality.

It's not telling that blizzard has said nothing. They might be deciding what to do. Do they delete the herbs. What if he sold them. Delete them and the gold? Give the gold back? Can the buyers be expected to know they were "stolen" goods? Do they get a ban too? Do we need a fix? Do we allow others to do the same? Will the fix break something else?

These are non issues and not question they ask themselves, its not the first time a similar scenario happens. If he sold them? They delete his gold and nothing else changes. They allow others to do it until they provide a hotfix for it or they don't. It's not as complicated as you want to believe, not even a little.

It is an exploit if it goes against the rules of the game.

You would think so, right? But that's not how blizzard works and have worked over the past 20 years....
I'll repeat this for the 5th time now and maybe you'll get it...
It's only an exploit when blizzard says so and does something about it... Until then? IT FALLS UNDER CLEVER USE OF GAME MECHANICS.
Your personal opinion matters fuck all, only what blizzard thinks matters. And they are beyond inconsistent on these matters.

[Ielenia]

You would think so, right? But that's not how blizzard works and have worked over the past 20 years....
I'll repeat this for the 5th time now and maybe you'll get it...
It's only an exploit when blizzard says so and does something about it... Until then? IT FALLS UNDER CLEVER USE OF GAME MECHANICS.
Your personal opinion matters fuck all, only what blizzard thinks matters. And they are beyond inconsistent on these matters.

You can type and retype the part you bolded until your fingers fall off, but that won't make make it any less false.

"Clever use of game mechanics" does not mean exploiting unintended bugs in the system. "Clever use of game mechanics" utilizes of valid mechanics and features of the game, and not bugs. On the other hand, if you are abusing a bug in the game-- i.e., you're exploiting the bug-- then it's not "clever use of game mechanics". If it breaks the rules established in the game-- in this case: no flight in Northrend zones without Cold Weather Flying and below appropriate level-- then it's an exploit.

Again, this still rings true with your arguments:

What you're basically saying is that it's not a crime to invade any home and take anything you want if the doors aren't locked properly.

[munkeyinorbit]

Remember that rogue who soloed patchwerk in original wotlk? That's clever use if mechanics. What the druid did is exploiting.

[Bigbazz]

It's an exploit.

[Razorice]

Sure, it's an exploit but to expect players not to take advantage of something so OP would be ridiculous.
It's on Blizzard because they didn't think it through.

[bullseyed]

It obviously didn't work as intended, because "as intended" means "can't fly without northrend flying".

Citation needed, though.

If you summon someone on a flying mount, it dismounts them. If you summon someone in flying form, it does not de-form them. This means Blizzard thought about and took the time to intentionally implement one, but NOT the other. It is plain to see then that they intended to summon someone in flight form.

That and this design gap is 15 years old, has been reported hundreds of times, and was not adjusted. Ergo it was intended to still be true for WotLK classic.


Selectively advantageous design gaps are not exploits. They're just bad design.

[Koollan]

Imagine defending an exploit because it doesn't fall under your definition of what an exploit is.

Not only comical, but woefully steeped in admiration and smug indignance.

[bullseyed]

I think what you fail to address is that summoning and then taking advantage of the fact that the check doesn't happen is the exploit. Yes, they are not exploits to get summoned or to be summoned while in flight form. It is an exploit when you decide to do something you wouldn't normally be able to do because of limitations that are supposed to exist. It isn't a loophole or clever use of game mechanics when you are deliberately doing something you know you shouldn't be able to do. That's always been Blizzard's stance.

You're assuming a lot of stuff, and then projecting those assumptions. Northrend Flying allows you to /cast flyingmount and /cast flightform in Northrend. It DOES NOT control actually flying in Northrend. This is proven by the fact that a druid can be summoned in flight form and still fly around. Other supporting evidence would include climbing large structures and slow falling, levitating, parachuting etc off of them, which is certainly less controlled flight but surely a form of travel in game.

Blizzard separates "happy little accident" from "exploiting" based on a number of arbitrary criteria, but the most important one is repetition, which was featured in the WoW Classic MC Reset bug:

There’s a pretty massive difference between “the instance is reset and we don’t know why” and “if we do this One Weird Trick we can infinitely farm this dungeon boss.” That’s the key factor that turns something from an accident into an exploit.

If a player was summoned to Northrend and didn't get kicked out of flight form, that's a happy accident. If they did it repeatedly, that is an exploit. Blizzard can arbitrarily rule the other way... but if they didn't intend for this to work this way, they probably should have changed it at some point the last 15 years.

- - - Updated - - -

What you're basically saying is that it's not a crime to invade any home and take anything you want if the doors aren't locked properly.

Breaking and Entering is a different crime from Petty Theft.

If the door to your house is left open and someone steals stuff, they didn't break in, they still stole.

[Ielenia]

Citation needed, though.

The very existence of the "Cold Weather Flying" feature is all the citation you need.

If you summon someone on a flying mount, it dismounts them. If you summon someone in flying form, it does not de-form them. This means Blizzard thought about and took the time to intentionally implement one, but NOT the other. It is plain to see then that they intended to summon someone in flight form.

Wrong. It means they either forgot to implement the "dismount" for druid forms, or the feature failed to work as intended on the druid form.

To claim that Blizzard intended to allow druids to fly in Northrend from the get-go on day one is absurd. Considering how Blizzard is gung-ho on having everyone start on a similar playing field, why would they intentionally give druids that massive advantage, especially since once you shift out of flight form, you can't get back into it on Northrend without Cold Weather Flying and being level 68?

[tomten]

You can type and retype the part you bolded until your fingers fall off, but that won't make make it any less false.

"Clever use of game mechanics" does not mean exploiting unintended bugs in the system. "Clever use of game mechanics" utilizes of valid mechanics and features of the game, and not bugs. On the other hand, if you are abusing a bug in the game-- i.e., you're exploiting the bug-- then it's not "clever use of game mechanics". If it breaks the rules established in the game-- in this case: no flight in Northrend zones without Cold Weather Flying and below appropriate level-- then it's an exploit.

Again, this still rings true with your arguments:

You need to stop trying to compare the real world to a video game, they are not comparable for starters...
The fact remains, unless blizzards actions it, its not deemed an exploit. Its blizzard games and blizzard rules applies, doesn't matter what you or me think?
But looking at the last 20 years, what I'm saying is absolutely true... Its only an exploit if blizzard acts on it and calls it an exploit, if not? Its just clever use of game mechanics.
It doesn't matter what semantics or word play or dictionaries you copy paste, for the real world? Sure, for other games? Perhaps... For blizzard? Nope, doesn't apply.

- - - Updated - - -

Wrong. It means they either forgot to implement the "dismount" for druid forms, or the feature failed to work as intended on the druid form.

How do you know? Do you work at blizzard?

[Ielenia]

The fact remains, unless blizzards actions it, its not deemed an exploit.

Wrong. The fact is that this is an exploit of a recently discovered bug.

Its blizzard games and blizzard rules applies, doesn't matter what you or me think?

You're the one disregarding Blizzard's rules. And the rules Blizzard set for the game are simple: to fly in Northrend zones, you need the Cold Weather Flying feature, and be at level 68. The player in question had neither of those things. So, if he was able to fly despite all that, then that means he is exploiting a bug.

But looking at the last 20 years, what I'm saying is absolutely true... Its only an exploit if blizzard acts on it and calls it an exploit, if not? Its just clever use of game mechanics.

No. you're still wrong. "Clever use of game mechanics" does not include the exploit of bugs. Especially since bugs are not "game mechanics".

It doesn't matter what semantics or word play or dictionaries you copy paste,

Says the guy trying to defend the exploits of bugs as "clever use of game mechanics". The lack of self-awareness is palpable. Sheesh, what you're defending is on par with EA defending loot boxes by calling them "surprise mechanics" and saying they're "fun and ethical".

How do you know? Do you work at blizzard?

Do you work at Blizzard to claim that Blizzard has changed their design philosophy-- No flying during initial leveling-- that was implemented for all expansions, where the only exception was Cataclysm and even then they announced it as being an "exception"?

But somehow an exploit that has to happen in a specific way (summoned by warlock), requires a specific class (druid), and works only as long as the player doesn't change shapes.... is intended, in your mind?

[tomten]

Wrong. The fact is that this is an exploit of a recently discovered bug.


You're the one disregarding Blizzard's rules. And the rules Blizzard set for the game are simple: to fly in Northrend zones, you need the Cold Weather Flying feature, and be at level 68. The player in question had neither of those things. So, if he was able to fly despite all that, then that means he is exploiting a bug.


No. you're still wrong. "Clever use of game mechanics" does not include the exploit of bugs. Especially since bugs are not "game mechanics".


Says the guy trying to defend the exploits of bugs as "clever use of game mechanics". The lack of self-awareness is palpable. Sheesh, what you're defending is on par with EA defending loot boxes by calling them "surprise mechanics" and saying they're "fun and ethical".


Do you work at Blizzard to claim that Blizzard has changed their design philosophy-- No flying during initial leveling-- that was implemented for all expansions, where the only exception was Cataclysm and even then they announced it as being an "exception"?

But somehow an exploit that has to happen in a specific way (summoned by warlock), requires a specific class (druid), and works only as long as the player doesn't change shapes.... is intended, in your mind?

What if blizzards doesn't action this and leaves this bug open for the reminder of classic...
Will you still call it an exploit? Even though its not your definition to make? Its blizzards? Your logic doesn't follow blizzards actions. /shrug

If you look at all these cases over every single expansion, you'll find out its on a per case basis for blizzard and how they act.
Sometimes they care, sometimes they dont.

Its more likely they let the original bug be left in the relaunch to experience the same. This isn't some super hidden secret bug nobody knew about. Blizzard knew about it. At least 100% more likely than you speaking in ultimatums about how they FORGOT! Nah, they didnt care. Have they said anything about it? No? Pretty telling in itself, isn't it?
So you can keep being delusional all you want but the fact is, unless they action it? Not an exploit, only clever use of game mechanics.

I'm not putting any value on either, if blizzard says its an exploit? I'll agree it is. If blizzard doesn't care and leaves it open? Clever use of game mechanics.
That's how it has ALWAYS worked with blizzard, they decide what is and isn't an exploit regardless of what you think is an exploit....

[NoiseTank13]

Imagine thinking that this wasn't an exploit.

Snrrrrk TECHNICALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY Snrrrk *pushes up glasses*

[Ielenia]

What if blizzards doesn't action this and leaves this bug open for the reminder of classic...

It still won't change the fact that it's an exploit of a bug.
Look, it's simple. It's basic logic:
• Are you supposed to be able to fly in Northrend zones before level 68?
• Are you supposed to be able to fly in Northrend zones without Cold Weather Flying?

Answering "yes" to any of those questions means this is a bug. And utilizing a bug for personal gain is an exploit.

"Clever use of game mechanics" is DKs completely ignoring Sire Denathrius' "March of the Penitent" ability during the first phase intermission thanks to Death's Advance as it negates any slows placed on you for its duration when you activate it. Exploiting a bug to do something you're not allowed to do by the rules of the game is not "clever", nor "game mechanics". Bugs, by definition, are not "game mechanics".

Will you still call it an exploit?

I'll still call it as it is.

If you look at all these cases over every single expansion, you'll find out its on a per case basis for blizzard and how they act.
Sometimes they care, sometimes they dont.

And Blizzard not fixing the bug does not make it any less of a bug, or an exploit to take advantage of said bug.

Its more likely they let the original bug be left in the relaunch to experience the same.

Considering no one was complaining about getting "world first" achievements in less than fifteen minutes back in the day, what is more likely is that this bug was not discovered back then. Only today.

This isn't some super hidden secret bug nobody knew about.

Care to show me evidence that people knew about that bug?

Blizzard knew about it.

Care to show me where Blizzard acknowledged the existence of that bug back in the day?

At least 100% more likely than you speaking in ultimatums about how they FORGOT!

I said that they either forgot to fix it for the relaunch, or that bug wasn't found out until today.

So you can keep being delusional all you want

The projection is astounding.

but the fact is, unless they action it? Not an exploit, only clever use of game mechanics.

What you got there is not a fact, but a factoid. The fact is: regardless if Blizzard fixes the bug or not, it won't ever stop being an exploit.

[Sariengrey]

Not calling this an exploit is like...
...saying I punched someone in the face but had a glove on, so since my skin didn't touch the victim, it wasn't me
It's certainly an exploit
And honestly...first realm herbalism, I know it's an achieve but I digress, lol who gives a ...

[Loveliest]

At some point in MoP most of my guild got banned for 3 days. What did they do? They bought reward boxes from rep quartermaster on Thunder Isle, shift-clicked to open, looted everything inside but 1 item (gold, mats). The box was returnable for the full currency. They returned the box and did that many many times.

It's a bug. It's Blizz fault. But it is an exploit and they got banned for it because it should have been clear to them that is not intended. If they had not gotten banned, it would still have been an exploit. Btw, they let them keep all the gold and mats so all of them thought it was worth the ban.

So, what is basically debated here is: is flying in Northrend without the prerequisites of flying in Northrend something clearly not intended? Considering that once you get out of your bird shape you can't get back in it, the answer can only be that it is not intended. Whether the person gets banned for it or not is irrelevant, it is still an exploit. They used something not intended to get a benefit (the achi). Whatever.

[Lord Pebbleton]

That's how it has ALWAYS worked with blizzard, they decide what is and isn't an exploit regardless of what you think is an exploit....

Blizzard knowing or not knowing does not matter. There have been examples of bugs that did not get fixed until much later, but people were punished for abusing them and everyone knew that exploiting those would result in bans.

Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. Blizzard intended people to fly in Northrend with Cold Weather Flying. For some reason the game fails to register that flight form is a kind of flying mount and lets druid use it. But as soon as a druid gets out of flight form, if they try to use the ability again, they get the same error message as everyone else.

It is absolutely clear as day that this is not intented behaviour, hence it is a bug. It is also a bug used to gain an advantage over the game/other people, i.e. non-druids that have been quickly cut out of the Realm First Herbalism race, hence it is an exploit.

There are no two ways about it. A player used a bug to get there faster. The bug is unintentional. Otherwise the druid flight form would state something like "can be used in Northrend but only if you get summoned there (lol)", or cold-weather flying would specifically state druids don't need it.

It is also most definitely not a clever use of in-game mechanics. Clever use of in-game mechanics means you are using legit tools creatively to get something done.

A level 60 hunter stacking up healing gear to keep healing their pet to full and soloing a Dragon of Nightmare is clever use of in-game mechanics. Finding a bug where if you clip in a building the dragon does not fight back at all is an exploit.

Killing Magistrate Barthilas in Stratholme before he runs off by means of using speed-enhancing abilities and effects in a clever use of in-game mechanics. Clipping under the ground, running to Rivendare and killing him without doing any bosses is an exploit.

Having a ton of warlock pals ready to summon you around Northrend's main flower spawn spots is a clever use of in-game mechanics (afaik portals do not have level requirements to be used in any zone). Abusing an oversight to start flying 8-10 levels earlier is an exploit.

[bloodmoth13]

Is it really different? The summon doesn't clear form or have any checks on cold flying. Its poor and lazy coding and its blizzards fault.
It 100% falls under clever use of game mechanics. Not an exploit.

its different. You are allowed to take anything you want into a raid, its just expected that by the time you get to a boss the temporary stacks from a buff from a zone 12 mins away wont affect anything. The setup required for most of his one shot vids is ridiculously specific circumstances. There wasnt any rule excluding those buffs from that zone, there are rules against flying in northrend though and requirements to actually do it. Breaking rules isnt the same as cleverly using game mechanics.

Basically there is a sign in northrend that says 'no flying till you pay', and he didnt pay.
There is no sign in the raid entrance that states 'no external buffs allowed. if there was then rextroy would be breaking the rules.

Also this guy obviously benefitted and got world first, he also got an unfair advantage against all the other farmers too.

[luciano]

i'm gonna use you as the punching bag to respond to everyone who has tried to berate me for calling this a loophole and not an exploit, and i'm going to try and explain why that is to the best of my ability and hope people are smart enough to see the point being made.

as i said previously:

warlock summoning worked as it was intended to work
druid flight form worked as it was intended to work

these things are factually correct, what you and every other person who responded to me trying to mock me has failed to identify, is that the druid player never used the shapeshift ability while in northrend, why is this key?, because the 'checks and balances' test for flight in northrend is the 'cold weather flying' ability that you purchase at the flight trainer in dalaran and unlock at lvl 77, this is a loophole that bypasses that particular block, meaning that if the druid player had been summoned to northrend and had used the shapeshift skill for flight form and was still able to fly around without cold weather flying, then that would constitute an exploit, as it was working not as intended, however since the check was never performed, nothing was exploited, by all means try to argue semantics but it's a very clear distinction to make that this is using a loophole to gain an advantage and it's on blizzard to close that loophole and while you can argue over the morality of using such a thing to gain an advantage, ultimately nothing was used incorrectly, nothing was actually exploited in a way the game isn't intended to function.

Did you see the episode of Trailer Park Boys where Ricky thought it wasn't stealing, so long as he had Jacob put the goods-to-steal out by the curb as "trash". Ricky would then come along and collect the trash. It's just trash, so it's legal.

That's your argument.

[tomten]

It still won't change the fact that it's an exploit of a bug.
Look, it's simple.

Yes, it is extremely simple, which is why I dont get how you struggle so hard with this.
Its a bug... Thats it... It's only an exploit after blizzard says so...

have they said its an exploit? Have they made a blue post about it?
No? So it's not an exploit, this is not rocket science...