World PvP making a major comeback in Dragonflight (World PvP/ Warmode gear)

[Alkizon]

Ashana Darkmoon
PvP power and resilience is awful because it silos the game and the players. Much better to let players compete in all content by getting gear however they want.

(In other words, the devs seem to be making the right choice here)

Requirements and progress are imposed without gear separation, as a result of which crutches and strict restrictions/requirements for both content are required, there goes begining for scaling needs, additional normalization due to different recipients in terms of regeneration/damage/heal/defence, incredibly stupid and confusing body movements are required, which so far, none of devs has been able to "correctly" implement together in the same game with PvE stuff (moreover, the same split is necessary within PvE sector already, because even there, due to "deepening" of specifics, there has been a split since Legion ~ the only thing is, that it's division of just final progress there).

This mischief has been going on since WoD and... no, none of this still works, no matter how much they dance with tambourine around this decision, everything goes by circles according to "one step forward, two steps back" method. People have right to choose content that is closer to them and to gain experience, progress and goodies in sector of its action only. If they want another direction, they must first get acquainted with its basics, gain experience, go through the whole chain from bottom, this is how professions are organized, this is how PvP is organized, this is how PvE is organized, if you want to grow in parallel - do it in time, it’s not so difficult, besides however, according to idea of "growth/progress" in PvP, it shouldn't be particularly deep in itself, which was also discussed many times, since in the end it should make it possible for rating system to work - this is second most important task of PvP gear, and hence requirement for them, but there're no such, which... *surprise-surprise* means that whole design doesn't work. Simple.
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since friend plays BDO, so said that progress of marine content and transport development works in a similar way for them (has its own separate gear progression and stuff like that), only this is mostly solo-grind oriented game, which is why, apparently, devs (PA) don’t really care much about necessary organization of PvP (there is a big bunch of "ingame world's" penalties for wPvP, however, unlike WoW, they still have one (wPvP), albeit as ordinary tribute to sandbox, and this despite the fact that they also have their own separate equivalents of WM and arena + siege, but focus on grind limits their capabilities due to need to provide as many players as possible with "points for free grinding", which means channeled organization of world, lack of direct PvP servers/closed solid game world and without other "rubbish" once familiar to WoW players), since PvP with grind (literally money~time+buffs action) get along even worse than with PvE...

We have already gone through leaky organization many times:


ps. More details for this specific part here, other stuff about "why it's necessarily" - here.

ps2. ..and as usual everyone forgets about "PvE powers" (rated secondary "non-strengthening characteristics" that were removed in WoD and which still haven't returned), they're required so that PvP gear doesn't outweigh PvE gear with being on same ilvl and degree of straight-power characteristics customisation.

[Nymrohd]

I wish there was a semi-automated or at least a greater incentive at forming groups in Warmode. Warmode is really fun when you make a party and then do it vs being ganked solo. Warmode was amazing back in Bfa whenever I made my own groups, but for some reason most people (Alliance) don't really think about it even when they type in chat "let's fight back" etc.

Maybe even if there is supposed to be some big open world event it should be possible where you can auto sign up and get invited to a raid, kind of like a mini Wintergrasp (ofc just limited to this event). On the other hand they should absolutely do something against people forming raids outside of that where they can just control and hard gank the whole zone.

And ofc the biggest issue with Warmode has always been, but especially in SL (nothing at all) and that is the lack of any kind of rewards.

More than a decade ago Rift which was very much a wow clone launched with a prompt to offer automated grouping of allied people when they enter an event area. Moment you got close to a group event you'd get an invite (which you could ofc decline) to form a group. Why WoW refuses to do so even after people made addons to do the same during Legion with "rare" mob world quests is beyond me. And using it for world pvp at least when the world pvp happens around pvp objectives seems a no brainer.

[Flaks]

BfA was the real world pvp revitalization expansion and Blizzard killed all the incentive they gave for it come SL. BfA was perfect in that it allowed good gear progression through world quests AND world pvp. It allowed people to simply jump in for there emissary quests and OH LOOK there's an invasion with a pvp chest that drops pretty good loot AND conquest. And if you do it enough you can start climbing towards heroic raid level gear. PLUS there's this thing called templates and scaling (albeit not done too well) that makes sure lowbies aren't just getting farmed by high ilvl geared players.

All they have to do is just refine that progression path/incentivization and the game will do just fine for casual andies like myself.

[Celement]

BfA was the real world pvp revitalization expansion and Blizzard killed all the incentive they gave for it come SL. BfA was perfect in that it allowed good gear progression through world quests AND world pvp. It allowed people to simply jump in for there emissary quests and OH LOOK there's an invasion with a pvp chest that drops pretty good loot AND conquest. And if you do it enough you can start climbing towards heroic raid level gear. PLUS there's this thing called templates and scaling (albeit not done too well) that makes sure lowbies aren't just getting farmed by high ilvl geared players.

All they have to do is just refine that progression path/incentivization and the game will do just fine for casual andies like myself.

BFA was some of the most broken and shit world pvp the game has ever had.

World pvp events nearly crashed the server as discord groups broke the sharing system to shove upwards of eight raid groups into a single shard making entire zones struggle with upwards of 15s input lag making the game unplayable.

Supply crates were camped by the dominate faction to the point you would never obtain one barring off hours or so late into a patch people couldn't be bothered to loot it.

Servant of znoth was an interesting take on it but the idea that bfa had good world pvp is just wrong from even a technical standpoint.

[Flaks]

BFA was some of the most broken and shit world pvp the game has ever had.

World pvp events nearly crashed the server as discord groups broke the sharing system to shove upwards of eight raid groups into a single shard making entire zones struggle with upwards of 15s input lag making the game unplayable.

Supply crates were camped by the dominate faction to the point you would never obtain one barring off hours or so late into a patch people couldn't be bothered to loot it.

Servant of znoth was an interesting take on it but the idea that bfa had good world pvp is just wrong from even a technical standpoint.

The incentivization (loot) was near perfect.

The implementation of sharding missed the mark as did templates but both were a farsight better than the nothing we got in SL.

Outside of the pvp event in nazjatar, I faced no lagfests at any point during all of BfA. The constant bridge battle between the horde and alliance town in Nazjatar was always active without lag. Servant of nzoth went without a hitch as did the pvp events in kultiras and zandalar which would always have major pvp fights in them as well. World quests on their own would have some great pvp battles too.

Supply crates also had a lot of legit great fights on them since you had to mobilize players.

The "dominant faction" problem only existed shard to shard and not server to server.

Speaking from experience here on a medium pop horde dominated server as alliance I got the pvp quest for being the "weaker faction" all the time and this incentivized alliance to group up and kick horde ass much more than I'd ever get dominated by horde kill squads.

Your opinion that bfa was not a good pvp expansion is not fact. The fact of the matter is bfa was the first expansion in a long time that incentivized world pvp heavily. The idea that it's implementation was good or not is definitely up for debate and I heavily disagree with your opinion on that.

[Caiphon]

PvP power and resilience is awful because it silos the game and the players. Much better to let players compete in all content by getting gear however they want.

(In other words, the devs seem to be making the right choice here)

They were (and still are imo) necessary to make sure PvP players are not forced into high end PvE and vice versa. If PvP and PvE gear are not BiS for their respective form of content, PvE players would be forced into arenas and wPvP and with the steep learning curve of PvP would generally have a really bad time. For PvP players it's even worse since mythic raids are anything but accessible - unless you're paying some shady folk to tag your character along in a mythic group you'd have to manage high end PvE AND PvP - good luck for anyone with a job, doing studies etc.

And yes having those BiS pieces do make a huge amount of difference, especially PvE pieces as they tend to come with crasy bonus effects that change how the character operates in PvP. A warrior with Herioc Gurthalak and a warrior without one were completely different classes in Cataclysm - groups just wouldn't take you if you didn't have the sword. And considering Blizzard just announced that certain raid bosses would drop items with these kinds of special effects, things can get really ugly without some incarnation of resilience making a comeback.

[ClownPrincess]

They were (and still are imo) necessary to make sure PvP players are not forced into high end PvE and vice versa. If PvP and PvE gear are not BiS for their respective form of content, PvE players would be forced into arenas and wPvP and with the steep learning curve of PvP would generally have a really bad time. For PvP players it's even worse since mythic raids are anything but accessible - unless you're paying some shady folk to tag your character along in a mythic group you'd have to manage high end PvE AND PvP - good luck for anyone with a job, doing studies etc.

And yes having those BiS pieces do make a huge amount of difference, especially PvE pieces as they tend to come with crasy bonus effects that change how the character operates in PvP. A warrior with Herioc Gurthalak and a warrior without one were completely different classes in Cataclysm - groups just wouldn't take you if you didn't have the sword. And considering Blizzard just announced that certain raid bosses would drop items with these kinds of special effects, things can get really ugly without some incarnation of resilience making a comeback.

Looking at the set bonuses on the elite warmode gear in the OP's video, for better or for worse it seems they are trying to solve this with the set bonuses.

I don't know what the HP pools are like at level 70 but unless there is a huge stats inflation compared to level 60 that shield every 2 minutes when stunned seems pretty huge.

I also wonder if those set bonuses are the same for warmode and conquest gear, but it would make sense for them to be.

[Stickiler]

Maybe even if there is supposed to be some big open world event it should be possible where you can auto sign up and get invited to a raid, kind of like a mini Wintergrasp (ofc just limited to this event). On the other hand they should absolutely do something against people forming raids outside of that where they can just control and hard gank the whole zone.

And ofc the biggest issue with Warmode has always been, but especially in SL (nothing at all) and that is the lack of any kind of rewards.

You've just reinvited battlegrounds though. Like if you want a large scale battle with a bunch of people fighting over an objective, you do a BG.

[Schwert]

Just chiming in to say I really enjoyed BFA's wPvP when we got it going, and spent a lot of time in Naz' as Alliance without too many problems. The raid group thing was extremely rare, and I just had to ask a friend to pop over to their shard instead whenever it did happen and we went on with our day.
Hell, even in Shadowlands we'd intentionally ask around to see where more Horde was and just go there.

The wPvP stuff ensured I'm playing Dragonflight.
No Peacecraft, even during peacetimes. Getting some old school vibes off it all on beta.

[Dracullus]

Time will tell but I think the only thing you got wrong is that world PVP will be making a big comeback.

The fact is most people who don't PVP in the open world DON'T. LIKE. IT. Incentives are unlikely to matter.

I disagree. Incentives matter in every type of content, world PVP is nothing special here. I had some great memories from war mode in early 8.0, but without Slayer achiev/title I would never touch it.

I have high hopes for war mode, especially since cross faction it will be more and more even as time goes on.

[Alkizon]

Looking at the set bonuses on the elite warmode gear in the OP's video, for better or for worse it seems they are trying to solve this with the set bonuses.

I don't know what the HP pools are like at level 70 but unless there is a huge stats inflation compared to level 60 that shield every 2 minutes when stunned seems pretty huge.

I also wonder if those set bonuses are the same for warmode and conquest gear, but it would make sense for them to be.

This is slippery slope, since result is essentially doing nothing for separating/controlling and not amenable to direct analysis, goal of PvE/PvP sets has always been and will be small bonuses specific to this content (these're easily and quickly changed PvP/PvE talents, little bonuses related to thuse (for PvE not only to direction in general, but even literally to "this" part of all content, sometimes little alleviation/balancing for performing of role part), but not shitty perks/spells! that they have now).

Trying to share "this" without above mechanism (for example, there were PvP trinkets and weapons, sharing of which gave additional increase in PvP characteristics, which is placeable), they not only don't achieve desired result, but even deprive themselves of opportunity to give these small bonus talents, however, I didn’t really look much at it and I think that you're wrong here, it’s them (bonuses), but they don’t really split/have specific direction in work, only conditional preferences.

In fact, if everything, that was discussed here (itemization), is set up correctly, then, in terms of balance, they won’t have to do really much of anything else, everything will (as it used to be) vary within these very numbers, with which there will already be a large main part of work, but they, for some reason, continue to shove all this functionality into classes, talents and external "episodic/seasonal settings"... which, however, creates an artificial/imaginary constant need for work of these people

That's my whole point man... except that its in the open world and thus it happens more dynamically (timer or when certain conditions are met). What else is open world PVP supposed to be?

Unpredictable and seemingly unmotivated act (no specific game restrictions, bonuses/incentives) of aggression outside of "regulated/limited by narrow rules" space (aka BG, arena, WM ~ something that can be left/get out of there/of those "narrow rules" completely), why?

Everything you put in (...) I have talked about in my post before.

Not Right, you talked about WM, but WM isn't wPvP!
- has requirements/objectives/bonuses/can be left - conditions don't match open world rules
Game imposed objectives is not wPvP

"why?" used as "why do you asked?" not sure if this is placeble/widely used, but saw that people do

ps. For reference: WoW doesn't have wPvP at all in current implementation (just BG, Arena and WM, which is just big, bugged and poorly organised BG, seed of Ashran, on PvE server).

[RobertMugabe]

You've just reinvited battlegrounds though. Like if you want a large scale battle with a bunch of people fighting over an objective, you do a BG.

That's my whole point man... except that its in the open world and thus it happens more dynamically (timer or when certain conditions are met). What else is open world PVP supposed to be?

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Unpredictable and seemingly unmotivated act (no specific game restrictions, bonuses/incentives) of aggression outside of "regulated/limited by narrow rules" space (aka BG, arena, WM ~ something that can be left/get out of there/of those "narrow rules" completely), why?

What why? Because it's fun -> because people like that -> because it will make Blizzard money?

Everything you put in (...) I have talked about in my post before.

[Celement]

The incentivization (loot) was near perfect.

The implementation of sharding missed the mark as did templates but both were a farsight better than the nothing we got in SL.

Outside of the pvp event in nazjatar, I faced no lagfests at any point during all of BfA. The constant bridge battle between the horde and alliance town in Nazjatar was always active without lag. Servant of nzoth went without a hitch as did the pvp events in kultiras and zandalar which would always have major pvp fights in them as well. World quests on their own would have some great pvp battles too.

Supply crates also had a lot of legit great fights on them since you had to mobilize players.

The "dominant faction" problem only existed shard to shard and not server to server.

Speaking from experience here on a medium pop horde dominated server as alliance I got the pvp quest for being the "weaker faction" all the time and this incentivized alliance to group up and kick horde ass much more than I'd ever get dominated by horde kill squads.

Your opinion that bfa was not a good pvp expansion is not fact. The fact of the matter is bfa was the first expansion in a long time that incentivized world pvp heavily. The idea that it's implementation was good or not is definitely up for debate and I heavily disagree with your opinion on that.

The hell it's not. I haven't even mentioned how fucked up " against all odds" was .

It was what really kicked off the idea of raid groups farming kills. I refuse to have the past rewritten. Your the same guy who in six months time is going to gush how covenants were " meaningful choices"

[ClownPrincess]

The incentivization (loot) was near perfect.

The implementation of sharding missed the mark as did templates but both were a farsight better than the nothing we got in SL.

Outside of the pvp event in nazjatar, I faced no lagfests at any point during all of BfA. The constant bridge battle between the horde and alliance town in Nazjatar was always active without lag. Servant of nzoth went without a hitch as did the pvp events in kultiras and zandalar which would always have major pvp fights in them as well. World quests on their own would have some great pvp battles too.

Supply crates also had a lot of legit great fights on them since you had to mobilize players.

The "dominant faction" problem only existed shard to shard and not server to server.

Speaking from experience here on a medium pop horde dominated server as alliance I got the pvp quest for being the "weaker faction" all the time and this incentivized alliance to group up and kick horde ass much more than I'd ever get dominated by horde kill squads.

Your opinion that bfa was not a good pvp expansion is not fact. The fact of the matter is bfa was the first expansion in a long time that incentivized world pvp heavily. The idea that it's implementation was good or not is definitely up for debate and I heavily disagree with your opinion on that.

BFA did the effort of incentivize world pvp but suffered heavily both from not having proper pvp gear and from what ailed BFA in general: AP grind, all around time gating, and especially the absurd PvE effects and ridiculous corruptions which made even battlegrounds awful (love random tank procs that delete you for more HP than anyone can possibly have)

Basically in BfA world pvp, there were (to simplify a bit) two nested gameplay loops: the core loop of "attack-fight-win" and a larger gameplay loop built on top of that of "control-defend-loot" with the supply crates.

The later was good and I was happy that they did it. It was disappointing that they didn't bring it to SL but it's really good that they are picking it back up for dragonflight.

However in BfA the core pvp gameplay loop of "attack-fight-win" was broken because of the gear and progression issues. And that's a deal breaker, the bigger gameplay loop doesn't matter if the core loop is broken.

So I agree with that other poster: BfA pvp sucked, despite some commendable world pvp systems efforts.

In SL only the core gameplay loop remained and was still similarly broken, despite some (frankly half assed) efforts to fix it in the gear side.

DragonFlight have a good chance of at last almost fixing the gearing/progression issues, so the core gameplay loop will once again work. And they're bringing back the bigger "control-defend-loot" loop which will have a chance to truly realize its potential for the first time.

[Celement]

BFA did the effort of incentivize world pvp but suffered heavily both from not having proper pvp gear and from what ailed BFA in general: AP grind, all around time gating, and especially the absurd PvE effects and ridiculous corruptions which made even battlegrounds awful (love random tank procs that delete you for more HP than anyone can possibly have)

Basically in BfA world pvp, there were (to simplify a bit) two nested gameplay loops: the core loop of "attack-fight-win" and a larger gameplay loop built on top of that of "control-defend-loot" with the supply crates.

The later was good and I was happy that they did it. It was disappointing that they didn't bring it to SL but it's really good that they are picking it back up for dragonflight.

However in BfA the core pvp gameplay loop of "attack-fight-win" was broken because of the gear and progression issues. And that's a deal breaker, the bigger gameplay loop doesn't matter if the core loop is broken.

So I agree with that other poster: BfA pvp sucked, despite some commendable world pvp systems efforts.

In SL only the core gameplay loop remained and was still similarly broken, despite some (frankly half assed) efforts to fix it in the gear side.

DragonFlight have a good chance of at last almost fixing the gearing/progression issues, so the core gameplay loop will once again work. And they're bringing back the bigger "control-defend-loot" loop which will have a chance to truly realize its potential for the first time.

I wonder at times if I enter alternative dimensions were people played a different version of the game then I did...

How was 15s input lag in pvp events "good"?

I always hate when people dance around what they actually want to say because they know it isn't popular. Let me do it for you.

Against all odds rewarding gear and pvp objectives with players abusing sharding wasn't good for the game. I get you want the freebie rewards back and enjoy jumping players 1v5 but it isn't good design.

[VinceVega]

Yeah... no... WorldPvP will be dead again the moment we can fly again or dragonflying is at the level of flying.

Warmode is just running around in groups and ganking the same people over and over and over again until they give up and disable WM alltogether.
Look at... what was it? Nazjatar i think. Quests for WM and what did people do? Gank in big groups. Nothing else. There was no chance for the other person at all. They just exploded.
WPvP in wow was never really alive in the first place imho. Even back in classic most of it have been rouges killing lowlevels.

[ClownPrincess]

I wonder at times if I enter alternative dimensions were people played a different version of the game then I did...

How was 15s input lag in pvp events "good"?

I didn't experience that.

I always hate when people dance around what they actually want to say because they know it isn't popular. Let me do it for you.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Against all odds rewarding gear and pvp objectives with players abusing sharding wasn't good for the game. I get you want the freebie rewards back and enjoy jumping players 1v5 but it isn't good design.

I don't do that either and I usually avoid big Zerg kind of fights, because no, 5v1 fights (or many versus many) don't interest me, which is probably why I didn't often experience huge lag such as which you describe.

I take pride on having obtained the alliance slayer and servant of nzoth achievements completely solo and I'm offended by your unwarranted insinuations.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah... no... WorldPvP will be dead again the moment we can fly again or dragonflying is at the level of flying.

dragon riding should actually make quite the difference compared to flying as people can’t just hover and you should be able
To chase people down if you fly better then them, should be a fair bit of fun for wpvp assuming there isn’t a lot of sanctuary’s.

[Flaks]

The hell it's not. I haven't even mentioned how fucked up " against all odds" was .

It was what really kicked off the idea of raid groups farming kills. I refuse to have the past rewritten. Your the same guy who in six months time is going to gush how covenants were " meaningful choices"

I've never bitched about how bad BfA was because I enjoyed every moment playing it instead. Despite the head cannon of forum goers, not everyone hates the things you do. I hated covenants and conduits and the zones and just about every aspect of SL and will remember that forever.

Again, it does feel like I played a different version of the game than everyone talking ish about BfA because like I said, I very rarely posted things online specifically because I was too busy enjoying the game instead during that time. To your next post about "15 second lag spikes"; I already addressed that: it was literally only the nazjatar pvp event that would do that at least for me and as a physician working long hours I would have more time during off times so even that wasn't that much of an issue for me.

Against all odds was a great incentive for the "weaker faction" to band together and fight the overwhelming force. And again, anecdotal evidence here but it was never "raid kill squads" for me since the horde would also get together and fight back. Hell, in 8.2 they made it so you couldn't even do the quest in a raid group and it had to be in parties of 5 or less if I recall correctly.

As to the other poster talking about how the azerite grind killed bfa; for me it did the opposite. At no point did I feel like I was grinding azerite. I only ever did island expeditions for the fun of them maybe 1 or 2 every few weeks. I got plenty of the resource just doing my emissaries never ever completing even 50% of the total world quests available at any time. I imagine it sucked more for people attempting to get heroic raid ready from week one but as someone who was satisfied just being competitive enough in world pvp it was great. AND again it allowed me to get geared up for heroic level raiding which I'd never done before or since and in fact allowed me to step into mythic raiding as well.

There were also no "gear progression issues". It was the opposite. Loot was raining from the sky and it was great. And if you put enough time or effort you were rewarded with heroic raid level gear that allowed you to dabble into that side of things. I'd argue gear progression was about the best it's been in a long time even without pvp vendors and such.

Crying about "freebie" gear doesn't really mean anything to anyone who's enjoying the game. Only to those who are bitter that someone else is getting lesser than what they have.

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Yeah... no... WorldPvP will be dead again the moment we can fly again or dragonflying is at the level of flying.

Warmode is just running around in groups and ganking the same people over and over and over again until they give up and disable WM alltogether.
Look at... what was it? Nazjatar i think. Quests for WM and what did people do? Gank in big groups. Nothing else. There was no chance for the other person at all. They just exploded.
WPvP in wow was never really alive in the first place imho. Even back in classic most of it have been rouges killing lowlevels.

I love this narrative that keeps getting pushed about gank squads and 1v5s etc. It's a generalization just like saying all old talent trees were cookie cutter in that it is just half the story.

Like myself and that other poster are saying there were a ton of situations (in my experience the majority) where it would be groups of horde vs my party of 5 especially since they locked these quests to parties and no longer allowed them to be completed in raid groups after 8.2.

[Celement]

I've never bitched about how bad BfA was because I enjoyed every moment playing it instead. Despite the head cannon of forum goers, not everyone hates the things you do. I hated covenants and conduits and the zones and just about every aspect of SL and will remember that forever.

Again, it does feel like I played a different version of the game than everyone talking ish about BfA because like I said, I very rarely posted things online specifically because I was too busy enjoying the game instead during that time. To your next post about "15 second lag spikes"; I already addressed that: it was literally only the nazjatar pvp event that would do that at least for me and as a physician working long hours I would have more time during off times so even that wasn't that much of an issue for me.

Against all odds was a great incentive for the "weaker faction" to band together and fight the overwhelming force. And again, anecdotal evidence here but it was never "raid kill squads" for me since the horde would also get together and fight back. Hell, in 8.2 they made it so you couldn't even do the quest in a raid group and it had to be in parties of 5 or less if I recall correctly.

As to the other poster talking about how the azerite grind killed bfa; for me it did the opposite. At no point did I feel like I was grinding azerite. I only ever did island expeditions for the fun of them maybe 1 or 2 every few weeks. I got plenty of the resource just doing my emissaries never ever completing even 50% of the total world quests available at any time. I imagine it sucked more for people attempting to get heroic raid ready from week one but as someone who was satisfied just being competitive enough in world pvp it was great. AND again it allowed me to get geared up for heroic level raiding which I'd never done before or since and in fact allowed me to step into mythic raiding as well.

There were also no "gear progression issues". It was the opposite. Loot was raining from the sky and it was great. And if you put enough time or effort you were rewarded with heroic raid level gear that allowed you to dabble into that side of things. I'd argue gear progression was about the best it's been in a long time even without pvp vendors and such.

Crying about "freebie" gear doesn't really mean anything to anyone who's enjoying the game. Only to those who are bitter that someone else is getting lesser than what they have.

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I love this narrative that keeps getting pushed about gank squads and 1v5s etc. It's a generalization just like saying all old talent trees were cookie cutter in that it is just half the story.

Like myself and that other poster are saying there were a ton of situations (in my experience the majority) where it would be groups of horde vs my party of 5 especially since they locked these quests to parties and no longer allowed them to be completed in raid groups after 8.2.

You enjoyed it isnt useful feedback. It's why I constantly roll my eyes when I see claims like this. They almost religiously come from people with no idea how anything works nor any desire to learn how it works.

The weaker faction didn't " band together " if they did the shard system would deplace them to accommodate server stability.

This why I'm thankful most of wows feedback comes from invite only forums. A staggering amount of people are ignorant of the basics of what they claim.