RIP Personal Loot

[Osmeric]

As far as I know the only rights blizzard gives players in wow according to the documentation they all click Agree on is to log into the game.

Players always retain the right to give Blizzard two middle fingers and walk away from the game, regardless of what Blizzard puts into that text.

[Relapses]

We shall see. I did not have any problems with personal loot and always got what i wanted from raids.

That's just it -- it's essentially PL but you just see rolls now. It seems complex written out but... it probably won't be in practice. I still think PL should be an option if players want it, though.

[LanToaster]

Because people are idiots, and the majority of WoW's player base would be confused by all the options, and about what things are currently set to, and when and how it could suddenly be changed, and so on. They want to streamline it to a fixed, singular option so that even Johnny Random from Simpleton Falls immediately knows what he's in for when he's doing a PUG.

Yea, you are Probably right, though I still think a proper Notification on the Loot Rules zoning into a Raid, and inability to Change LootRules inside the Raid would fix that.

Yes it makes things slightly worse for the top end of the curve compared to what it would be with a full array of options, but they'll take that any day to make sure the vast, vast majority in the middle isn't confused and complaining whenever a PUG leader decides to suddenly switch loot in the middle of the raid or whatever, or when they joined thinking it was GL and it turns out it's PL. And so on.

The Ironic part on that is.
It makes it slightly worse for the Top End, probably doesnt affect the Majority who raid with a Community/Guild, and in my Opinion screw over people who rely on Pugging solo for Raids. So, a Change made for the Average Johnny Random, will screw him over the most.

Really the only issue I see is that as long as the system includes player agency, the community will transform the agency into drama.

This, its going to be so amazing when people Roll on a 2% Upgrade, when others think they deserve it more. I´m 90% Certain this will kill so many PUGs.
Or how they Complain because people dont want to bring other Casters/Cloth weares who compete on their Loot.

And yet some people are Afraid they wont get Invites to Raids when People may Choose their LootRules. *laugh*

[Biomega]

in my Opinion screw over people who rely on Pugging solo for Raids.

You can have that opinion, of course, but do you have anything to actually back that up?

Because as it stands right now, it seems to be an almost strict upgrade for the average player in the average group. The ones most affected are people who did massively skewed armor-stacking runs, but the vast majority of average players did not.

If you just go PUG raid with a relatively evenly distributed selection of classes, you'll on average get the same amount of loot OR MORE than you did with PL.

PL was effectively already GL with everyone rolling Need automatically - now you'll not only have people passing/greeding, you also have more restrictions that stop rolls altogether.

[LanToaster]

That's just it -- it's essentially PL but you just see rolls now. It seems complex written out but... it probably won't be in practice. I still think PL should be an option if players want it, though.

Problem is, they make it sound simpler than it is. As I wrote:
With Personal Loot, you have ONE roll per Boss to receive an Item. So Like they said, the system Rolled everyone from the Raid, and the X(Amount of Items) Highest Rolls receive an Item.
But with GroupLoot you have to "Win" More rolls.

E.g.:
First you need to "Win" the Roll of the Item that Drops, so an Item that you can use actually Drops. Then you need to Win another Roll against the other Players who want to have that Item. Which will actually lower your Chances to actually get Items.
If you have two Rolls you have to win, with a 50% Chance of Winning, you only have a 25% Chance of Winning.

Furthermore, I recall (Sadly cant find the Posting) on an Older Post where they talked about the return of GroupLoot, that the Loot wouldn´t be smart, and would just drop from the Entire LootTable (Like back in the day), removing the ability to Stack Classes for Higher Chances of Specific Items, and favoring declining others who might compete with the Items you/your friends want.

If you like Personal Loot, you should want it to Stay, and just remove the Trade Restrictions.

- - - Updated - - -

You can have that opinion, of course, but do you have anything to actually back that up?

Of Course:

Personal Loot is fairly Simple:
Boss dies, you roll if you receive an Item, then you roll which Item you Receive.
Group Loot:
Boss dies, you roll which Items drop, then you roll if you get an Item.

The Order is Importan, lets make it Simple a 10m raid: (Lets not Include Weapons/Trinkets in the Calculation, and have an Even LootPool, and assume 2 Items/10 Players)
PL: Boss dies, you have a 2/10 Chance to get an Item. This is One Roll.
GL: Boss dies, you have a 2/8 Chance to have it Drop an Armor Piece you can wear. Then, lets say you have at least 3 People with your ArmorClass in the Group. This are 4 Rolls.
Now, with PL you straight have basically a 20% chance of Loot. Fairly Straight forward.

Now with GroupLoot, you have 2 Rolls, to determine the Items.
Thats 2 Times 1/4 to determine if you are eligible to Receive an Item. This comes out to Roughly 31,5% of beeing able to Actually Roll against another Player. Now even if you only have ONE other Player to Roll against, you only have a Chance of 15% to win an Item, with 2 Others, it goes down to 10%, and with 3 others 7%.

Any RaidLead who intends to get Loot for himself/his raid, will as you are apparently be afraid of, will much more decide who to take. As I said: He probably wont invite someone who would Compete with the Loot he or his raid needs.

Even worse, going from an earlier BluePost (That I sadly cant find anymore, was around the Dragonflight announcement) about the new Group Loot, there they said, with GroupLoot even stuff no one in the Raid can use will drop.
They could make a System that decides the Loot based group composition like PL is. But with how they go against Class Stacking, I doubt they will. And unless they reveal how the Loot is decided in Detail, I wont believe it either.

What I forgot in that Part is:
The Odds for the first Roll are way Worse than with personal Loot.

On a Boss that has 11 Items in its LootPool, you might be able to use 4. 10 Players, 2 Items (Taken from the First Boss Sepulcher, and Assuming each Item has the same Odds of Dropping.)
On Personal Loot: Flat out 20% Chance to Receive Loot (10Mann)
Depending on the Amount of Items you can use:
4 Items: 20% Chance
3 Items: 15% Chance
2 Items: 10% Chance
1 Item: 5% Chance

Now, on Group Loot:
You have a 4/11 Chance to Actually be able to Rool, this leaves you with ~45% Chance.
Now, the Odds of Receiving the Item are depending on Other people who might Roll against you. So, First value is against one other, second two others, and so on:
4 Items: ~22%, ~15%, ~11%
3 Items: ~17%, ~11%, ~9%
2 Items: ~11%, ~8%, ~6%
1 Item: ~6%, ~4%, 3%

So, as I said: For Communitys/Guilds/Groups this is no Problem, as the Dinished Odds fade away as you can Trade stuff more. But as Random/Solo player you will almost always play against the same Odds. So, if you run a Group with 3-4 People who need on the same Stuff, your Odds of actually getting it grows much much Smaller.

*Edit: Had an Error in my Calculation, the Odds are Slightly Better, Adjusted. Overall, if you just Compete with ONE other Player for your Loot, you have slightly better Odds than with PL, otherwise, its always much worse.

[hulkgor]

Should have kept Personal Loot for pug groups as it just got rid of a lot of hassle.

That said, having Group Loot back for guilds is absolutely amazing and i'm happy for it.

[Tehalbino]

That's just it -- it's essentially PL but you just see rolls now. It seems complex written out but... it probably won't be in practice. I still think PL should be an option if players want it, though.

It's an easy way to make gold. If you see need as an option you just need it.

Someone can then buy the item for a few thousand gold or just disenchant/vendor if there are no takers.

I'm looking forward to this tbh.

[Clozer]

Time to reroll to fotm dps if you wanna see any loot during serious mythic prog.

[Biomega]

Now, on Group Loot:
You have a 4/11 Chance to Actually be able to Rool, this leaves you with ~45% Chance.
Now, the Odds of Receiving the Item are depending on Other people who might Roll against you. So, First value is against one other, second two others, and so on:
4 Items: ~22%, ~15%, ~11%
3 Items: ~17%, ~11%, ~9%
2 Items: ~11%, ~8%, ~6%
1 Item: ~6%, ~4%, 3%

I'm not sure where your 45% comes from. 4/11 is 36.3636..%, but of course that is PER DROP as multiple items may drop you can use, increasing your overall odds of getting at least 1 item. Is that where you get 45%? Based on what, since that scales with number of drops, right? And you also need to add the chance of winning MORE THAN ONE ITEM, which you can't under PL (though of course you can't win the same item twice, in case of multiple identical drops).

And then of course you forgot the roll vs. 0 people, i.e. when you win the roll by default because you're the only one who wants it.

Guess it's not surprising if the math skews towards your side when you forget to add stuff to the competition Do you by any chance work in politics?

[Proskill]

why do ppl like grp loot? like to get their stuff ninjaed? how is personal loot bad? like wtf??? i must not understand something here

[Jujudrood]

Group loot will just be everyone clicking "need" when available, regardless of actual need.
That's how it was back then, that's how it will be now... the dreaded "ninja'ing" of gear.
The thing is, that's also how PL works, it's just a hidden roll so it's not ninja'ing, it's just the game making the choice for you on an automatic roll.

The real question is, will the loot tables still be restricted to only the classes present?
Like, if there's no hunter, are bows still dropping? Because in old group loot, they would, and it was more or less a wasted opportunity.
PL did remove those items useless to the current raid makeup since things were spec-specific, at least.
But at the same time, if the loot is class-restrictive in group loot, class stacking in split runs is going to be even more insane.
Essentially everyone will need one or more of every class to assure the right loot drops and funnels to the appropriate players.

It almost feels like the players asked for one of two things:
1) remove trade restrictions on PL
or
2) add ML back for guilds

They chose option 3, which seems pretty divided, and also seems pretty par for the course for decisions.

[LanToaster]

I'm not sure where your 45% comes from. 4/11 is 36.3636..%, but of course that is PER DROP as multiple items may drop you can use Increasing your overall odds of getting at least 1 item. Is that where you get 45%? Based on what, since that scales with number of drops, right?

Indeed. Two Rolls of ~36%, gives you an Average of 45,45% of seeing at least one Item you can roll on.

And you also need to add the chance of winning MORE THAN ONE ITEM, which you can't under PL (though of course you can't win the same item twice, in case of multiple identical drops).

Yea, I forgot to factor that in, but I think that doesnt much increase the Odds though, I dont calculate that, because fuck, I dont feel Confident in correctly calculating that. But, I´m curious now, Gimme a bit, I´ll try.

And then of course you forgot the roll vs. 0 people, i.e. when you win the roll by default because you're the only one who wants it.

Did not Forget that, I decided not to Include that because the Odds of that Happening in a Random Raid are near Non Existant. But here you go:
4 Items: 45,45%
3 Items: 34,09%
2 Items: 22,73%
1 Item: 11,36%
This is obviously double the Chance you have as with one Competition, and just the Odds of Actually getting the Item you need.

Guess it's not surprising if the math skews towards your side when you forget to add stuff to the competition

Well, to accurately make a Pure Math Statistic/Decision you would also need to get an Average of "How Many People actually need Items", or:
On Average against how many People do you Roll. Based on my (To my Own Raid limited, we just Roll for Items that we dont need) observation. On Average at the Beginning of the Tier, usually 3-4 People Roll on an Item. (~15-20 People in the Raid).

The Problem I see, (which why I think this will Screw over Solo Players) is the "Better Odds with less Competition".
The PL system Rewards you for taking along People, e.g. The More Plate you take, the more Plate drops, the more Chances you have that something Drops, (Even if it needs to be Traded).
However, with GroupLoot you are Punished for taking along more Plate, because you just increase the Competition, for the Items that Drop.

This can be devastating, for certain Classes who rely on Pugging.
E.g. I have Usually 3-5 Hunters in my Raid, right now, I can take 2 More Hunters, no Problem, they could potentially Trade stuff to my own People. Wont change anything.
With Group Loot, I wont take any Additional Hunters in my Group, because they are just more Competition, and dont bring anything else.
Same goes with "BiS" loot, why would I invite someone who is Competiton to the BiS trinket of my Warrior?

And this is my main take away. With Personal Loot, you can only Increase your Odds of Receiving Items. With GroupLoot you can only Decrease the Odds.

Do you by any chance work in politics?

No, I´m just a certified Chef.


Edit:
In Regards to Chances to Receive Two Items:
I´m not Certain I Calculated that Correctly, but I got:
10% Chance of Dropping Two Items that you could use. (If you can use all 4 Items That are Aviable)
5% with 3 Usable
2% with 2 Usable

And the Odds to actually win them, are Abysmal aswell. Even with only One Competitor on both Drops, you only have 0.12% Odds of having a Boss Drop Two Items, and winning Both with 4 Possible Usable Items.
If you are Interested how I calculated that: (Feel Free to Correct me if i´m wrong)
First Loot Roll: 36,36% Chance (4/11), Second Loot Roll: 27,27% Chance (3/11) = 9,92% Chance (Without Competition, thats It)
Both Need Rolls at 4,96% Probability Each come around to 0,12% Chance of Happening.
So, yea, Thats not Gonna Happen Likely.

[Tehalbino]

why do ppl like grp loot? like to get their stuff ninjaed? how is personal loot bad? like wtf??? i must not understand something here

EZ way to make gold, just need it then auction it off in the group.

Also alternatively if you actually need/want something just make a group and don't invite X armor type.

[HASELHOOF93]

While I agree that personal loot has a place as a great system for pugs, I couldn't be happier to see Blizzard make the right decision to remove it entirely.

I've argued this for over 4 years with people here, feels great to be right.

"..feels great to be right."

This right here is the very core of the problem regarding modern games and forum dweebs causing havoc - people think that there is a right or wrong and that their belives obviously is the only way to go. Jikes.

[kodemonkee]

Really bad decision, I am starting studies next month and won't have the time for fixed raiding days with a guild so I am going to pug most of the times.

Because we know what will happen people/guildies/friends invite pugs to get a full raid and "ninja loot" it to their friends/guildies or whatever.

[BlackBoss]

This is pretty much a win for ninja looters. This is blizz's way of bringing interactions back. If you aren’t friends with ML, you’re screwed. I’ve won rolls on tier pieces and had them given to a guildy over me. I’ve seen “Death Bringer’s Will” “Betrayer of Humanity” and numerous tier pieces not go to the highest roller. Those days are coming back

[dragonflight10]

I disagree. Should’ve made it group loot for guild runs and personal loot for everything else. Good luck getting loot in LFR where an idiot rogue will roll need on everything they can even if they can’t use it

100% you didn't read the post and just waiting to complain

[schwank05]

Wait, what? This is a thing that actually happened? OMFG I have been ranting and raving about how shitty it feels to kill a boss and not see loot drop since the inception of Personal Loot. If this is actually a thing then I may even play Retail again.

- - - Updated - - -

This is pretty much a win for ninja looters. This is blizz's way of bringing interactions back. If you aren’t friends with ML, you’re screwed. I’ve won rolls on tier pieces and had them given to a guildy over me. I’ve seen “Death Bringer’s Will” “Betrayer of Humanity” and numerous tier pieces not go to the highest roller. Those days are coming back

All high ticket items should be assumed to stay in guild, even with new recruits we will not give out contested items for 2 weeks to ensure things aren't being taken from the guild.

[xenogear3]

This is pretty much a win for ninja looters. This is blizz's way of bringing interactions back. If you aren’t friends with ML, you’re screwed. I’ve won rolls on tier pieces and had them given to a guildy over me. I’ve seen “Death Bringer’s Will” “Betrayer of Humanity” and numerous tier pieces not go to the highest roller. Those days are coming back

This is the true reason that many people prefer LFR.
But Blizzard doesn't get it.

[Miyagie]

that... is not how GDKP works. unlike regular DKP - G stands for gold. as in. you bid whatever gold you have and then at the end of the raid - the pot is split evenly among the participants. at least that's how the GDKP raids I've been in worked. meaning - yes weapons and trinkets would go to wales, but the rest of the loot could be had for cheap as you were only limited by your personal finances and if you were careful, you could get a number of cheap upgrades and leave the raid either breaking even or even with more gold than you came in with.


That said, it is an awful system for lfr IMO. it should be limited to premade groups only.

We played with normal DKP not with Gold and we had minimum points for gear like 50 Points for small items, 100 for chest, legs etc., 150 for rings and trinkets and 250 for weapons as minimum.
And then you get 10 Points per bosskill and 10 for being on time.