You understand what context means right? Cuz you took it out if context.
You literally asked what FF was missing that WoW has. And the answer was it had unique aesthetics that FF does not, like Druids or playable Undead. You can't just take that out of context and then proclaim FF also has that very same thing, smart guy.
I didn't take ANYTHING out of context. At all. Thats total garbage, and you know it. Deep down, you know it. You know it because i NEVER claimed FF has everything wow has, not once. In fact, i pointed out there ARE differences. But to try and claim that wow is super special and unique because it has fucking DRUIDS? Jesus Christ.
This is just one massive strawman. Nothing you are saying has ANY basis at all. Its honestly just ramblings.
Honestly he isn't wrong on the druid front and not the existance of the class...
The big difference in final fantasy classes is there's a GIANT lack of customizability compared to wow
If you put 2 Reapers in a room with the same gear they are essentially the same outside of looks meanwhile 2 druids can have drastically different play styles with spec, talents, pvp talents, etc etc. Race in wow also plays a giant difference compared to final fantasy a Lalafel and Hgorthar legit play exactly the same when you compare to a Troll and Night Elf Druid for example.
As much as everyone's like "FF14 releases 2 new classes every expansions" they miss the fact that 1 FF14 class is essentially the same as 1 Wow spec
Is that a bad thing? No different styles different ways to play the fact that I can play a Ninja in 14 and when I feel like it I can click a button and then I'm a Summoner is neat but if you need more depth to your classes then wow Is the way to go
You are confusing specs and classes and jobs. Compare two resto druids, and honestly tell me they have any meaningful differences. They dont. This, ironically, is one of the more common complaints about wow - everything is cookie cutter and plays very similar. Saying "hur dur wow has druids" is no different to saying "hur dur FF has bards". Its not the topic of discussion, and its just apologist bullshit to say otherwise.
What "depth" does wow offer? Honestly, what are you even talking about? If you want to be competitive in a given spec, there is, and always has been, a specific spec you have to play. Maybe you guys just havnt played FF?
Either way, this was never intended as a FF Vs WoW discussion, there are enough of those already. My FF response was specifically regarding the comment that WoW has unique aspects (classes, aesthetics) and my response was simple: So does FF. I never once claimed one was "better" than the other, simply that the games are, generally, VERY similar and one appeals to some more than the other.
I never ONCE said "ff has everything wow has and is identical" - quote me where i did. What i suggested is that many VERY successful alternatives to wow exist that have carved out their own niche: Some by being quite different to wow, some by being VERY similar to wow with minor differences (FF). To a dedicated MMO player those differences are quite large - especially if you focus on PvP. But many GW2 players mock wows PvP systems, and pretty much every MOBA player just scoffs at wows arena. Em sure this comment will draw out every professional MOBA player and Gladiator, but its unlikely i will believe any of you. Fact is, wows pillar humping "pvp" is a joke when compared to TRUE competitive pvp titles.
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And WoW is NOT FF, and wow is NOT TES.
What? Sorry but i have no idea what you are trying to say. I want players to play whatever fucking game they enjoy. I dont want people to play wow simply because "derpy derp its wow is da best nofink is goodera dan wow!". I want people to play what they enjoy, and would rather wow wasnt filled with angry people who hate the game but just cant let it go.
Why? Why is that not a valid opinion? Do you believe wow can be changed to suit EVERYONES needs and specifics? Is there not a certain point where that advice is good?
For example, if I said "wow should be more like Forza, and mounts should be able to drift and I want to add spoilers and do jumps" would you think that's a good idea, or, maybe, just maybe, would everyone be better off if I just played Forza?
Except WoW has room to adapt and add that gameplay in where it fits, like as a minigame or a new travel system.
Such as Dragonriding exists now because it's literally adapting a mechanic from Guild Wars 2 and not just listening to ignorant fools who are saying 'go play Guild Wars 2 then'
WoW was always a game built on bridging the best concepts of other games into itself and polishing it to a high degree. It doesn't mean it has to be everything fans want, but there is certainly an argument to have popular things added if it makes sense. Not sure why there is so much resistance against WoW improving itself with more content really. The game has already changed significantly over the years with more systems, more content and plenty of minigames, why the sudden resistance against something new?
The principle of shutting down people's requests and ideas is stupid since it's still up to Blizz to decide what goes in the game or not. Even a Forza style racing minigame would be fine for some new expansion that features super speedy vehicles in a new zone. From there fans can debate on how much they'd like to see it. IMO there is no reason to completely shut it down on the assumption that WoW is not the type of game that adds new gameplay.
Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 03:02 PM.
Asking for a different genre of game won't get you or the game anywhere, that's the thing. Arguing for/against group loot or for/against level squishes is one thing, asking WoW to essentially become Monster Hunter is something completely different (and nigh impossible). Doesn't help that you keep insisting it is somehow unethical for an MMORPG to not be like Monster Hunter.
Look at it this way - if you post in a Monster Hunter/Sekiro/Skyrim community saying the game must now introduce multi-winged 20 man raids and 3v3 arenas you'll get laughed off the site. Asking for WoW to embody those games isn't any different.
Considering you count Torghast as a huge success I don't really think 'many' will agree with you on what success means. You're also assuming that players refrain from higher end content because they're morbidly afraid of using the group finder (most likely extrapolating from your own fears) but the reality is that casual gamers aren't really that interested in tackling high end content to begin with. You can enjoy the entirety of WoW's world and story just by doing Heroics and LFR. M+ and guild raids are merely an increase in difficulty and unless you want to 'git gud' at this game it's not something you need to invest in.
You pretend to speak for many but tend ask for things that no casual gamer would ever wish to do, like grinding 10,000 mobs to craft mythic level gear. What kind of casual gamer prefers to grind world mobs for hundreds of hours rather than using group finder to run low M+ for half an hour? In reality you speak for a very small subset of players who can totally nolife any game but have a very specific and intense fear of making or applying to groups. This isn't a large demographic (and certainly doesn't overlap with the casual crowd) and Blizzard isn't likely to cater to that niche, especially after the smoking trainwreck that was Torghast prior to 9.2. That's why 'many' people are saying it would be better to pursue a game that is designed for solo play - it's not like they're hard to find.
tldr: Stop acting like you represent the many when you actually represent a handful of solo grinders.
Why do people struggle to understand that there is plenty of demand for solo play in MMO? Not just something to do solo, but to do it while still being within the overall multiplayer experience.
People asking for something is completely fine, obviously! Customers can ask for things in products lol
The dishonest part is when folks rationalize why their pet issue also happens to be 100% what the game should do for the most success.
And I've already mentioned at least twice that people played Torghast because they needed to. It was a necessary step in getting class specific legendaries which was absolutely mandatory for any type of endgame content. I've said this before and I'll say it again, just because 90% of the population work to make a living doesn't mean work is mankind's favourite pastime. Quite audacious of you to complain about your arguments being ignored when more than half of anyone's arguments seem to fly right over your head.
Notice that matchmade content is ALWAYS easier/at a lower tier than premade content. Every single game out there has fewer players playing difficult content, because difficult content is difficult. Casual gamers generally don't play such content because they are not willing to invest a ton of effort to gaming, hence the term 'casual'. You want to think it's groups that put people off harder content because you for some reason can't stand being in one.
Also note that group finder wasn't designed as an 'alternative', or to even compete with dungeon finder in the first place - it's basically group finding via general chat made easier. Notice how people don't really spam chat for groups anymore. Group finder is doing its job pretty well.
And matchmade m+ would essentially work exactly like current m+ because higher difficulties will require higher ilevel cuts. The harsh reality is that you're not clearing m12 with questing/normal dungeon gear and matchmaking would be a complete disaster if we didn't have ilevel thresholds because if you're thrown in with a 200 tank you just lost your key. Again this is something I've already addressed in this very thread, one of many many things that flew over your head. And no saying you can't clear m12 with questing gear isn't 'gatekeeping', it's an objective observation.
Notice that the operative word is 'need'. I'm saying that trying out normal raids or m+ is purely optional, that you're not required to go through them to enjoy other types of content. M+ is the most successful form of new content implemented since Cataclysm, you're making a fool of yourself here claiming it wasn't a success yet somehow Torghast is. You'd be hard pressed to find one out of 100 players who think Torghast was a bigger success than m+.
As stated above you can ask to let people queue random for m+, it'll just make no difference whatsoever as ilevel thresholds would most certainly be imposed. If that makes you happy then by all means ask for it. Solo activity? No. Impossible to balance as Torghast has shown, and also nigh impossible to be enjoyable, again as Torghast has shown. WoW combat is designed around tank/healer/dps interactions and there's only so much you can do in solo fights. It's not like you can manually deflect attacks and deliver 10-hit combos like in Sekiro or Tekken.
Challenge in crafting? I don't see how that's even possible outside infinite grinds or mythic exclusive drop components. How do you challenge crafters when everything can be looked up on Wowhead in three minutes? Not to mention the majority has specifically asked for less homework in the game, putting gear upgrades behind dailies literally means more homework.
Those that quit just aren't interested in doing challenging content and that's completely fine. Low m+ isn't exactly difficult but it still requires more effort than what many casual gamers are willing to give. Groups aren't the problem here, challenge is. And there already is a tremendous amount of content available for people who want to play the game but don't want difficult stuff - world quests, mount collection, renown, transmog, pet battles, achievements. World quests already fill the 'missions with gameplay' niche. And if none of those interest you, then you just quit until the next major patch/expansion.
As for progression in almost no game do casual gamers receive the same level of rewards that hardcore gamers get. Monster Hunter is a solo-to-small group game yet you're not getting Valstrax gear without killing Valstrax. This means casual gamers do get stuck with gear progression and that's perfectly fine, as there are plenty of other things to do in this game (and they don't even require gear or skill, something that can't be said about some other games). I haven't raided in years, my ilevel is pretty basic and I don't want to get heroic or mythic gear without clearing heroic or mythic. If neither lore nor collection nor environment/art interest you and getting higher item ievels is your utmost priority are you even a casual to begin with?
It was bad because it had gear progression behind it in the form of legendary upgrades. People were forced into it whether they liked it or not, and the vast majority didn't enjoy it. Plus high level Torghast runs are also a bit of a challenge (albeit a much less enjoyable one) so if Torghast had raid-like progression casual players would have reached a point where they can't progress anymore, which makes it no different from m+ or raiding. Any sort of skill based gear progression means casuals can only climb so high, and the sole alternative to skill based progression is, you guessed it, infinite grinding.
Casual gamers can play challenges just fine, we have raids, m+, rated battlegrounds and arenas. We can add more but it won't address your issue - that gear progression stops for casuals at some point where the challenge becomes too much (which is why I consider this a non-issue). Grinds make nobody happy as progression-drived hardcore gamers will be forced into it screaming and kicking while casuals simply won't have the time to grind out hundreds of hours.
Bit rich considering how you very actively repeat yourself over and over without addressing what everyone else has to say. And stop hiding behind the term 'casual' to express your demands when you clearly speak for people who just despise groups.
Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-10-01 at 09:42 PM.
You are literally denying the fact that people plough through unwanted content to be able to play content that they enjoy. People have gone through tedious 'homework' throughout the entirety of this game's history, from grinding Aldor/Scryer rep for shoulder enchants to scouring the Broken Isles/Kul Tiras for artifact/azerite power. How does one even discuss this game with someone who claims every piece of centent is done because the players throughly enjoy it? How would you explain the absolutely devastating community response to Torghast if you believe everyone was actually having fun? Through some conspiracy theory involving invisible 'shy casuals'?
Have you actually raided in FFXIV, because I did during ARR and Heavensward and unless we're talking about 'casual' raids like Primals the serious content was premade, just like WoW raids are premade above Normal difficulty. And FFXIV raids are very similar to WoW's raids, I don't know where you're getting all this 'personal accountability' from. You're fucked if some doofus gets knocked off the platform, just like how it works in WoW. It's a group effort that has a strong emphasis on minimising mistakes.
Being casual has nothing to do with avoiding groups. During SL Season 2 I played an hour a day of 2v2 arenas with a single partner and I was by all applicable means a casual gamer. Back in Ulduar I played around 6 hours a week, 4 of those hours spent raiding with the guild. All this personal accountability nonsense is simply your preference period. It is not a criteria that defines casual gaming, which literally means you don't spend a lot of time or effort in playing games. Sure casual gamers can tackle challenges, they're just at a disadvantage with less time and energy available. And no it doesn't have to be through matchmaking.
And there we have our problem - redesigning the damn game for the sake of more solo/matchmaking play is not on the table. By the gist of it you just want ilevel to go away because you've been kicked from groups for it, but if you're going to make gear irrelevant then why even have gear in the first place? And how do you propose we make that happen? By setting everyone to the same ilevel? Again, why have gear in the first place? You'd need to completely overhaul how gear and progression works, yet you claim this won't even cost Blizzard a raid tier?
And do revel in the irony of invoking Social Darwinism in what you've already stated is a computer game. The term doesn't mean what you think it means, being better at WoW doesn't make you a more advanced human being.
You just throw that word around like some panacea yet have no idea how to make it work. As long as content is done in groups it becomes a group effort, premade or no. If someone fucks up, the group suffers for it. If you want everything to depend on you and you alone it needs to be some iteration of Torghast which for the last time wasn't well received.
Any high end PvE works better with premades than being placed with randos. PvP is different since the opponent can be randos as well but it isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Again you throw your little mantra around, but how will you make 'dungeons' of all things depend on 'personal accountability'? If some bloke dies in the fire do you expect it to not affect the rest of the group?
Torghast was the biggest heap of manure this game's ever had in terms of balance. Try running the same difficulty with something like a prot pally and something like an elemental shaman and you'll understand. Tanks, healers and DPS work very differently in solo play (to the extent that they had to completely homogenise healers, what a joke), add to that the differences in CC, self healing, availabilty of stealth and such and it simply becomes impossible to balance. Of course we can make everyone healers and control that stupid shade thing instead but then is it even WoW?
That... is already a part of any sort of dungeon play ever and is not a 'completely different role'. Tanks need to pull manageable groups at the right time and use defensives appropriately. Healers need to heal, use defensives and help with the DPS if things are stable enough. That still doesn't change the fact that everything's a group effort - how will you DPS if the tank can't keep the mobs off you? How will you tank if the healer won't top you off? Even if the game 'scores' your performance like some action RPGs you'll still get straight Fs if you wipe repeatedly. What's the point?
To think you were the one complaining about Ad hominem. Oh the audacity.
You're simply asking for single player dungeons which is just Torghast all over again. Yeah no thanks, there are literal news articles describing why that content was a failure, everyone was asking for it to either be removed completely or removed from the gearing process. And if the rewards of this 'system' still depend on difficulty levels it does nothing for casuals anyway, which for the billionth time doesn't mean people who hate groups. The closest thing to your proposal in an MMORPG setting would be the Blue Mage gameplay in FFXIV, which does not affect gear progression or even story progression - in fact you can't even enter story arcs with it.
Having NPCs fight with you would be similar to the AI modes in League or other MOBAs, these don't typically provide progression either.
Lol game developer, sure. Nothing more to say here other than that Torgahst was a massive failure. Skills indeed. I could live with a minigame mode like the Blue Mage but it shouldn't count toward progression, just like in FFXIV.
Applying for a m+ group in group finder takes a literal second. If that's too much commitment so is going through multiple difficulties in your Torghast-style single player dungeons. You make it sound like on the fly m+ groups hold two hour interviews and are partners for life, I just apply, get accepted, run the m+ and never ever see them again. Too much commitment indeed.
Low m+ is totally doable with heroic dungeon/LFR gear. Don't have those? Then run random Heroics and LFR, it's literally content with gear progression. There's no race involved unless you want to be the nth person on server to clear m15 or something, and you wouldn't want that if you're not one for competition.
Low m+ has schedules? How? Groups are literally made on the fly in group finder, heck even mid m+ works like this. Don't have gear? Run lower difficulties, there are more parties than you think. Then eventually you'll have enough gear to go for high m+. Surely you've no wishes to be in the top 1% of m+ players when you specifically said you're not interested in competition?
I repeat, there are plenty of groups running low m+ that only require Heroic/LFR levels of gear. And none of them require pre-scheduling, groups are made on the fly. Perfect for the casual gamer, unless he has some morbid fear of playing with other people. Oh and we also had Mage Tower as a challenge, pity people cried rivers about it.
Possible but unnecessary and just a whole lot of clutter. M+ already addresses people who don't play on a schedule and making an entire game mode at the level of dungeons and raids that cater solely to single players? Bad investment of resources, especially considering how the last incarnation of solo dungeons was received. Like I said, even FFXIV's Blue Mage is essentially a minigame.
As long as progression is tied to difficulty the highest tier of gear will always be available to a few. Your grand solo dungeon design doesn't change this. League is mainly matchmade, doesn't change the fact that Master is some 0.n% of the playerbase.
Your proposals basically boil down to Torghast.
Yeah you could... but why throw precious resources towards that little niche of hardcore yet somewhat sociophobic players? I'm sure we have furries in WoW, doesn't mean the company should bend over backwards to accomodate them.
WoW can't accomodate every single gaming style and preference in existence, what a surprise. Say, why not accomodate the fighter crowd and make special skills that activate through complex joystick movements? I'd love that personally.
You're seriously claiming legendaries aren't needed in Torghast? Without one the handicap is immense. Or have you never gone beyond like 10?
They were done 'fast' yet were crying rivers and seas over not being able to be done with that place quicker. Says a lot about the content.
Who in their right mind would invest even more into Torghast after seeing the trainwreck that ensued? And weren't you whining about Ad hominem?
Low to mid m+ is not 'scheduled', end of story. You're thinking mythic raids. And failing in matchmaking will still piss your group off, trust me.
If pretending you 'won' the debate makes you sleep easier at night then by all means do so, but I doubt 'many' are convinced.
All the game needs is fun and engaging content for people who don't do Mythic+, Raid, or ranked PVP.
There's no reason for those things to be the be all end all of the game at the expense of basically everything else. You can have a game not dead-focused on the endgame and only SPECIFIC kinds of endgames, without also ruining the endgame. It's not really, or at least it shouldn't be, an either or situation.
The problem is that such systems already exist and players clearly aren't satisfied. Players, as a whole, will never be satisfied until there's gear parity between all forms of content. WoW has, intentionally, decided that there's a cut-off for gear around the Normal raid difficulty for single-player only content. Most of the arguments I've seen in favor of single player progression systems in this thread boil down to, "well it should be at least Heroic+ item level [because reasons]." Either that or they want to completely reinvent the way gear works in WoW so that Mythic raiders are brought down a peg and WQ enthusiasts are brought up to their level. I don't think either of these options are particularly good for the longterm health of the game.
The current paradigm isn't broken, we don't need to fix it.