Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

I was making a speculative argument and you are free to disagree if you wish, yet you weren't merely disagreeing you were implying that proof is needed to sustain a claim.

Proof is always need to prove a claim. Speculation doesn't change that. You don't know what his intent would have been if he was still alive. That is the point. It doesn't matter if it is speculation or factual. Both are the same. You are trying to speak for a dead guy on what he would do while restricting the evidence to only that which you think can't be refuted.

I'm not sure why you keep asking me what I think when it hasn't changed and you just referenced what I think. It could go either way. Tolkien could not want to involve himself or he could be interested enough to write or critique a script for Rings of Power. You even say you agree factually as you did before yet you still can't stop arguing as well. Speculatively or Factually it is the same answer. Refusing to accept them as the same just shows how you have to keep arguing just to argue rather then accept that we are both in agreement. Just as you did the last time you said there is no evidence or concrete proof to speculate on which means it could go either way as there is nothing to prove either side. Lol.

There is no concrete proof and evidence for the discussion of speculation

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He sold film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit books and the appendices are included in the LOTR books. He never sold any rights to any appendices as justification for a television series covering the second age.

And? He was still fine with people making adaptations of his work. You are only making a distinction between work to argue just for the sake of it. He was offering his work for adaptations before he sold the rights. It is clear that he likely wouldn't have cared about his work outside of his two books being used to make an adaptation. Those things being unpublished simply means he didn't finalize them into a first draft. Even his published work wasn't "final" as he even wanted to re-write the entirety of The Hobbit in 1960. He also used his unpublished work to explain things to fans in order to support the two books which further shows it is silly to exclude them for an arbitrary reason just because you, as a Tolkien fan, need to exclude them.

[Xath]

No the LOTR series sold 50 million by 2003, thats 2 years after the first movie, by 2007 the LOTR books had sold 150 million, do some basic research and you wont be embarrassed by incorrect information.

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

What gives you the impression by the above information that 100 million copies were sold before the films, when it clearly states the series reached 150 million by 2007.

SC has already been proven to be the best game of its genre and its still in development, your lack of integrity trying to insult things clearly proves you know you are in the wrong. When ppl seriously post incorrect information easily refuted in 1 min its no doubt noone believes whats coming out your mouth.

I literally quoted the article you linked they sold 50 million after Jackson's films released along with another 50 mil of non lotr Tolkien books. Star Citizen is trash much like your attempts at arguing.

Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

[Triceron]

Proof is always need to prove a claim. Speculation doesn't change that.

And we both provided proof. If you disagree, then say so and move on.

I've already said what I needed to regarding your own assertion and I clearly disagree.

What more do you want to argue here? Stop trolling dude. Delusional, I swear.

[eschatological]

The two sentences in question contradict each other. One says that 50 million were sold "up to 2003," and that another 100m were sold between 2003 and 2007, raising the total to 150m.

The estimate by the publisher is that one third was sold AFTER the movie's release (in 2001), which explicitly infers 2/3rds sold before 2001, which would be 100m.

Either way, either LOTR sold 100m or 50m before the films, and that makes it pretty popular. Drop the issue.

As an aside, the cultural relevance of LOTR was huge in the 60s and 70s. Led Zeppelin, one of the biggest bands in the world, had multiple songs referencing or outright about LOTR.

[InfiniteCharger]

And? He was still fine with people making adaptations of his work. You are only making a distinction between work to argue just for the sake of it. He was offering his work for adaptations before he sold the rights. It is clear that he likely wouldn't have cared about his work outside of his two books being used to make an adaptation. Those things being unpublished simply means he didn't finalize them into a first draft. Even his published work wasn't "final" as he even wanted to re-write the entirety of The Hobbit in 1960. He also used his unpublished work to explain things to fans in order to support the two books which further shows it is silly to exclude them for an arbitrary reason just because you, as a Tolkien fan, need to exclude them.

You are making a false statement. He did not sell Amazon the TV series rights based on his appendices. That happened after he died by members of the Tolkien estate to make some money directly off the IP. His selling of the film rights for the books has absolutely nothing to do with this particular series because this was not something he was involved in. What you are doing is trying to conflate that with him selling the film rights to two books that were the only things he published before he died and the main story and IP that he cared about. Meaning he cared about having his stories as told in those books preserved intact as complete stories. Since the appendices are not a complete work or story he would absolutely not have sold them to make a television series that gives a studio free reign to make up a story of the 2nd age which he himself had not even finished writing in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. This is why those works were unfinished and unpublished so to say that he intended them to be published is false because they weren't. And if he was going to allow a studio to make a TV series on that time period he would have likely written a more complete work set in the 2nd age in order to have a complete story that would be a reflection of his wishes for that age. What Amazon has is basically a narrow set of rights because the Salzance company and now Embracer group has all film rights to the Books and additionally a cut in any adaptations of the Silmarillion and Unfinished tales. So the rights that Amazon has are very limited in that they only basically have the rights to make up a story about the 2nd age based on what is in the appendices. Therefore they cannot tell a complete narrative that even ties into anything else because they don't have the rights. And I doubt very seriously that he would have agreed for such a project to begin with, because he didn't intend for the appendices to be a complete story in and of itself or for studios to be making up stories that contradict what he actually published.

[kenn9530]

The two sentences in question contradict each other. One says that 50 million were sold "up to 2003," and that another 100m were sold between 2003 and 2007, raising the total to 150m.

The estimate by the publisher is that one third was sold AFTER the movie's release (in 2001), which explicitly infers 2/3rds sold before 2001, which would be 100m.

Either way, either LOTR sold 100m or 50m before the films, and that makes it pretty popular. Drop the issue.

As an aside, the cultural relevance of LOTR was huge in the 60s and 70s. Led Zeppelin, one of the biggest bands in the world, had multiple songs referencing or outright about LOTR.

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. - this statement is from 2007.

"That's just in the U.S.," Harper says. "Tolkien has been a cultural phenomenon for years. The Lord of the Rings has sold 50 million copies worldwide. But there's been nothing like the audience growth we've experienced coinciding with the new movies. I know of no other publishing experience like it." This statement from 2003

So all the information proves that 50 million total sales of LOTR books were made by 2003 and the total only rose to 150 million by 2007, nowhere does it stated the sales were done before. Dont post incorrect information just because one article looks like they didnt word it properly, the 2003 article would of stated 150 million books sold wordwide otherwise.

If the 150 mill sales were done by 2003 then why has no more books sold by 2007, do you believe no books sold in 4 years straight after the release of all films. Note the article mentions the 1/3rd was sold just after the first film, that means the rest happened up to 2007 from the other films in the series with no mention of before the films release.

My origional statement still stands, that most of the success for LOTR series is due to the movies.

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I literally quoted the article you linked they sold 50 million after Jackson's films released along with another 50 mil of non lotr Tolkien books. Star Citizen is trash much like your attempts at arguing.

Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

See above you are proven to be incorrect, multiple sources stating 50 million sold in 2003, a badly worded article does nothing for you.

[rhorle]

You are making a false statement.

Where did I say JRR sold the rights to Amazon? You are again inventing an argument no one made. His own son, Christopher, sold the rights and used material of his fathers that he published and put together. I am not conflating anything. I am saying he was fine selling rights to his work. There is nothing to say he wouldn't have sold the rights to his supporting elements, even if unpublished, if asked. He never said "published book only" and it is a silly arbitrary line to use. He was constantly revising his story so all of his work was unfinished in his opinion which is why your line is arbitrary.

It doesn't matter if unfinished work can't tell a complete narrative or not. Adaptations are not required to have a complete narrative to be adapted. You can doubt what a person you don't know would do all you want but that doesn't mean anything. Because you are just some fan and can't speak for Tolkien. The person that could speak for him, his son, is the one that courted buyers for the rights to a TV show.

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And we both provided proof. If you disagree, then say so and move on.

Okay. Why can't you say so and move on? Why is it that I'm constantly the one trolling when you keep insulting instead of discussing with civility? You haven't been clear what you actually want here. As you say you don't understand while saying you do. You say we agree but then say we don't agree. There are some things you need to figure out for yourself instead always going on a crusade because I've posted something.

[Xath]

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. - this statement is from 2007.

"That's just in the U.S.," Harper says. "Tolkien has been a cultural phenomenon for years. The Lord of the Rings has sold 50 million copies worldwide. But there's been nothing like the audience growth we've experienced coinciding with the new movies. I know of no other publishing experience like it." This statement from 2003

So all the information proves that 50 million total sales of LOTR books were made by 2003 and the total only rose to 150 million by 2007, nowhere does it stated the sales were done before. Dont post incorrect information just because one article looks like they didnt word it properly, the 2003 article would of stated 150 million books sold wordwide otherwise.

If the 150 mill sales were done by 2003 then why has no more books sold by 2007, do you believe no books sold in 4 years straight after the release of all films. Note the article mentions the 1/3rd was sold just after the first film, that means the rest happened up to 2007 from the other films in the series with no mention of before the films release.

My origional statement still stands, that most of the success for LOTR series is due to the movies.

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See above you are proven to be incorrect, multiple sources stating 50 million sold in 2003, a badly worded article does nothing for you.

You are wrong really don't know any easier way to state it than that. As Eschat said LoTR was hugely relevant with LZ referencing it multiple times and of course the Nimoy Bilbo song. Heck I grew up having it read to me my first memorized piece was Far Over Misty Mountains Cold from The Hobbit which I did for recitation in first grade. This would be before the movies.

The bells were ringing in the dale
And men looked up with faces pale
The dragon's ire, more fierce than fire
Laid low their towers and houses frail

etc.

[Triceron]

Okay. Why can't you say so and move on? Why is it that I'm constantly the one trolling when you keep insulting instead of discussing with civility? You haven't been clear what you actually want here. As you say you don't understand while saying you do. You say we agree but then say we don't agree. There are some things you need to figure out for yourself instead always going on a crusade because I've posted something.

I think I told you I disagreed and said there was nothing left for you to argue multiple times now. If you didn't get the clue, you're just fucking trolling.

[rhorle]

I think I told you I disagreed and said there was nothing left for you to argue multiple times now. If you didn't get the clue, you're just fucking trolling.

I'm trying to have a civil conversation and its trolling? However the person that keeps insulting and not having a civil conversation is not? You have some weird grudge/fixation on me that every time I post you need to argue and insult. You slip in and out of that like Jekyll and Hyde. One moment having a civil conversation. The next insulting and not being able to let it go.

[Triceron]

I'm trying to have a civil conversation and its trolling? .

Nah dude, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

Don't hide behind civil conversation bullshit when you took a comment out of context and argued something for pages that you thought was some factual claim when it was clarified to you as being speculation all this time. You're all bad faith, my man.

Civil or not, you were picking arguments where there was none and still looking to take anything to argue for the sake of it.

We done here? You can have the last word.

[rhorle]

Don't hide behind civil conversation bullshit when you took a comment out of context and argued something for pages that you thought was some factual claim when it was clarified to you as being speculation all this time.

You are speculating using facts. It is the same conclusion. You willingly argued for pages as well and only turned to insults when you couldn't counter any longer. You are the one that can't stop and keeps posting just to insult and demean. Strange, right?

[Shadowferal]

I'm trying to have a civil conversation and its trolling? .

You were never interested in having a conversation. You just despise hearing differing opinions and insist your opinion is some fucked up truth.

[cface]

So I started the first episode, and the first things that strike me is how horrible the acting is. Music doesn't seem to fit that well, and I kinda don't get the feels.

And I don't care about black or white people in tvshows, but that black nelf actor, is absolutely dogshit. He looks horrible, has one ugly ass facial expression and just doesn't fit anything. There are many great actors out there that are black that could've taken this role.
But not only the black elf, gelandriel isn't really great either. It seems they found bad actors to save a penny or something. Such a huge disappointment.

[Gumble]

So I started the first episode, and the first things that strike me is how horrible the acting is. Music doesn't seem to fit that well, and I kinda don't get the feels.

And I don't care about black or white people in tvshows, but that black nelf actor, is absolutely dogshit. He looks horrible, has one ugly ass facial expression and just doesn't fit anything. There are many great actors out there that are black that could've taken this role.
But not only the black elf, gelandriel isn't really great either. It seems they found bad actors to save a penny or something. Such a huge disappointment.

I curious where he gets his hair cut from, given all the other elves are supposed to have long flowing hair that is rarely, if ever, cut. They should have given him a wig.

So much of this show looks like "we tried to save money", which is so strange given how much they spent on CGI sets and how expensive the show is supposed to be. Where did all the other money go?

[Ihavewaffles]

Jesus christ this is such pig puke...so the magic sword is just a key, would just have worked with a regular key n wasn't mt.duum already a thing in the story??

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I curious where he gets his hair cut from, given all the other elves are supposed to have long flowing hair that is rarely, if ever, cut. They should have given him a wig.

So much of this show looks like "we tried to save money", which is so strange given how much they spent on CGI sets and how expensive the show is supposed to be. Where did all the other money go?

I think they lied about spending 1b, prob to get some tax cut when claiming to spend such a nice round number..They prob spent less than half that.

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So I started the first episode, and the first things that strike me is how horrible the acting is. Music doesn't seem to fit that well, and I kinda don't get the feels.

And I don't care about black or white people in tvshows, but that black nelf actor, is absolutely dogshit. He looks horrible, has one ugly ass facial expression and just doesn't fit anything. There are many great actors out there that are black that could've taken this role.
But not only the black elf, gelandriel isn't really great either. It seems they found bad actors to save a penny or something. Such a huge disappointment.

Yeah that 'elf' has the charisma of Guy'lad'riel...none.

Black dwarf though woke token casting did a good job, well all dwarves did, they should have done a show about them instead of shampoo elves..

Or a smaller show of harfoots

Don't care about humans n elves, they can all go die in a fire..

[DarkAmbient]

It is true that Arondir has one facial expression with a couple of subtle variations. Galadriel switches between indignant and wheeee I'm on a horse!

[InfiniteCharger]

Where did I say JRR sold the rights to Amazon? You are again inventing an argument no one made. His own son, Christopher, sold the rights and used material of his fathers that he published and put together. I am not conflating anything. I am saying he was fine selling rights to his work. There is nothing to say he wouldn't have sold the rights to his supporting elements, even if unpublished, if asked. He never said "published book only" and it is a silly arbitrary line to use. He was constantly revising his story so all of his work was unfinished in his opinion which is why your line is arbitrary.

It doesn't matter if unfinished work can't tell a complete narrative or not. Adaptations are not required to have a complete narrative to be adapted. You can doubt what a person you don't know would do all you want but that doesn't mean anything. Because you are just some fan and can't speak for Tolkien. The person that could speak for him, his son, is the one that courted buyers for the rights to a TV show.

He didn't sell the rights to ANYBODY for a story of the 2nd age because he never wrote a complete story of the second age. That is the point. The only complete stories he wrote were the Hobbit and LOTR and those are what he sold the rights for. Therefore to argue that he intended for anything other than that is just you making up stuff. He never intended the appendices to be used as the basis for the 2nd age because he never published them separately nor did he write or publish any complete story of the second age, nor did he publish the Silmarillion, his notes or the Unfinished Tales. That means they were not ready for public consumption as he was still developing his ideas and therefore did not publish them. So you cannot include those things as something he intended to be made into films because they were never published by him before he died. That is the point. You keep trying to ignore those facts by claiming that he intended the books he did publish like LOTR to have the appendices taken and used as justification for someone making up a story of the 2nd age which he himself had never completed. That is illogical. Just accept he fact that these things only happened because of other people in the Tolkien estate and not because of Tolkien himself is my point and does not reflect his wishes.

The crux of the issue is the entire story of Arda and middle earth through all of the ages is the work of one man and one man's imagination. That was his life's work which he dedicated himself to and protected with a passion. If anything, he intended that entire story to be considered as a whole and not broken up piecemeal into different competing interpretations from various studios and creators. It should be obvious from any and all interviews with the man that this is what his views were on the topic. Now, that said, it does not mean that someone cannot take up the task of trying to flesh out that world but that depends on the Tolkien Estate to steward and manage such productions in such a way that they try to make an "official" adaptation of the work in such a way that all the parts add up to a whole even if they aren't 100% true to everything Tolkien wrote. But that is not what is happening with this TV series, where they literally just gave Amazon the rights to make up a completely alternate story on the 2nd age that does not match with what Tolkien even wrote in the appendices. And that is basically the fault of the Tolkien Estate as they are the ones who came up with the idea in the first place. The fact that Amazon took on this idea without realizing the tremendous risk is purely on Amazon but it isn't their job to protect Tolkien's legacy.

[Celement]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

[Ghost of Cow]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

That seems like a silly concept. Businesses aren't in the habit of keeping costly products around just to make it look like they're profitable or something.