Give the Horde better leaders.

[Maljinwo]

Why do you keep entertaining this poster?

It's clear he does not wish a discussion, just validation for his roleplay as a hardcore evil badass Horde that would probably set fire to every single Alliance child not before commiting unspeakable immoral acts.

A Grazrug thread is a thread that should be closed down

[MrLachyG]

The ones you picked might be strong but either a problem as a threat, an insult to the race/capital, or just generally a weaker leader on other parts.

I give an approving nod to Chen and Doomhammer, everyone else on the list gives the races reasons to worry/threatened/weakened.

I mean the ones he picked are mostly dead, evil or both

[Aucald]

Why do you keep entertaining this poster?

It's clear he does not wish a discussion, just validation for his roleplay as a hardcore evil badass Horde that would probably set fire to every single Alliance child not before commiting unspeakable immoral acts.

A Grazrug thread is a thread that should be closed down

I like to understand where a person is coming from, and I don't think it's proper to dismiss someone entirely out of hand just because they're passionate about their opinions. There's also nothing manifestly wrong with wanting the Horde to be an evil faction, either; at least not insofar as it concerns the fictional universe of WoW. The Horde began as an evil organization and existential threat to Azeroth all the way back in 1994, so a return to form along those lines doesn't strike me as either unreasonable or impossible. Not something I really want myself, given that I prefer my fiction to be a bit less simplistic than WC1's handling of the Horde and Alliance was, but still not entirely beyond the pale.

[Maljinwo]

I like to understand where a person is coming from, and I don't think it's proper to dismiss someone entirely out of hand just because they're passionate about their opinions. There's also nothing manifestly wrong with wanting the Horde to be an evil faction, either; at least not insofar as it concerns the fictional universe of WoW. The Horde began as an evil organization and existential threat to Azeroth all the way back in 1994, so a return to form along those lines doesn't strike me as either unreasonable or impossible. Not something I really want myself, given that I prefer my fiction to be a bit less simplistic than WC1's handling of the Horde and Alliance was, but still not entirely beyond the pale.

Yet all of their posts are the same and theres a reason they have been banned several times

I will not derail this thread any longer though.
Do as you will

[Icelin]

The Horde is getting set up for success. People received a Forsaken Council. Master Apothecary Faranell, Deathstalker Commander Belmont, Princess Calia Menethil, Dark Ranger Velonara and Lilian Voss.



They have the potential to take the idea and further build on it and make it enjoyable for everyone. It's just that I didn't really want to focus on death so much anymore after a whole afterlife expansion (not sure how many others share that sentiment)... I figured they would be focusing more on life.

On a sidenote on making an idea enjoyable for everyone makes me think of DragonFlight (multiple people asked for dragons for awhile btw and a class in particular..) and how hard it would be to flop one of the most popular fantasy tropes. Blizzard seems to be on a pathway of no matter how favorable they are set up they seek to self sabotage. One of the main ways is neglecting the cries from the playerbase. (Being unhappy how the new race looks in dragon form and visage comes to mind..) I been hoping they stop this but..

As for the other races.. I'm not sure if Zekhan is as popular as Vol'jin but still. Baine will always be boring, surprised if they changed Taurens ever. Some people enjoy Thrall, some don't. I think it would look more favorably on Thrall if he starts having his children around he does have an older son and daughter now. Lor'themar is busy with Thalyssra. (Still I don't think anyone has ever had that much problems with Lor'themar..)

[username993720]

I made a thread based on this one:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...acial-Identity

[Grazrug]

I like to understand where a person is coming from, and I don't think it's proper to dismiss someone entirely out of hand just because they're passionate about their opinions. There's also nothing manifestly wrong with wanting the Horde to be an evil faction, either; at least not insofar as it concerns the fictional universe of WoW. The Horde began as an evil organization and existential threat to Azeroth all the way back in 1994, so a return to form along those lines doesn't strike me as either unreasonable or impossible. Not something I really want myself, given that I prefer my fiction to be a bit less simplistic than WC1's handling of the Horde and Alliance was, but still not entirely beyond the pale.

I am done now. Feel free to close this thread. I will not post anything new.

[Feanoro]

I will not post anything new.

Believe me, we know.

[Shadowferal]

I am done now. Feel free to close this thread. I will not post anything new.

I don't believe you ever posted anything new.
But you have shown that the horde was never "great" and that they themselves are their own worst enemy.

[TrueHorde]

make the horde graet again

[Xgirl]

The Horde died with cringe Thrall transformations later in wow

[Raisei]

I will never play Alliance. What I want from this game is that Blizzard is giving us some parity for all the damage the Horde had to suffer through in Bfa.

All that damage was self-inflicted tho. Both inside and outside of the game.

Inside it was a Horde character going nuts because that is what Horde characters do. If you build a faction out of 80% bloodthirsty psychopaths, then you should not be surprised when one of them snaps now and then.

Outside of the game it was people like you demanding an evil Horde with evil people leading it. The problem is that you are not understanding that no matter how much you wish it, the Alliance isn't going to be destroyed, so the only thing an evil Horde will do, is loose spectacularly.
Blizzard indulged your wishes, and now you aren't happy because somehow you convinced yourself that this time you would finally be getting that mountain of skulls and rivers of blood in Stormwind.

You got to burn down a tree full of innocents and you are getting away with it. That already is an immense insult to the Alliance and clearly shows on which side the Devs are. You should be very happy. Even the main perpetrator of this genocide barely got a punishment. She'll be back in no time.

[omeomorfismo]

lul at baine still writing with enemies, now with kamikaze genn
kek

[VladlTutushkin]

lul at baine still writing with enemies, now with kamikaze genn
kek

Genn is as much “an enemy” now as Anduin.

By now “survival” of the Horde is only endangered by Horde’s innate warmongering stupidity since Alliance was scoured clean of any hostility by devs.

[Darth-Piekus]

I think that it's time for Blizzard to stop listening to fans wanting War in Warcraft and focus on more important things. After all these players who wanted War in Warcraft are directly responsible for the downfall of the game and of course responsible for the 3 worst stories in Warcraft (Garrosh,Sylvannas and the Jailer).

Mods will have to forgive me for what I am about to say but my message to those hardcore pro-war fans who know who they are is to forget the Horde you want. It's never going to happen and you have no right to ruin the game anymore enforcing your idiotic kind of thinking. So stop creating useless threads asking for the same thing again and again. It doesn't work and it's becoming annoying.

[Grazrug]

Is this topic still open? Wow I thought the admins had closed it by now. I am suprised.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't believe you ever posted anything new.
But you have shown that the horde was never "great" and that they themselves are their own worst enemy.

The alliance is our enemy. They took our Rastakhan and Sylvanas from us. And I will not rest until Blizzard adresses this and make the alliance lose something important in a similar way. Got it?

[Shadowferal]

I've ideas that keep the "war" in Warcraft, but it'd be more of a cold war, blasting off more so on pvp servers.
The "independent" factions would make up the larger storylines with certain classes bridging and bringing races more in nonviolent contact with each other.

- - - Updated - - -

The alliance is our enemy. They took our Rastakhan and Sylvanas from us. And I will not rest until Blizzard adresses this and make the alliance lose something important in a similar way. Got it?

You are the Horde's enemy. And you always will be.

[Grazrug]

Saying it failed because of treason is true, but why did the treason occur? Why did Gul'dan betray Orgrim and the other clans? Why did the majority of the Horde betray Garrosh's mad dream of conquest? Why is the position of Warchief almost always abused by powerful or charismatic personalities that lead the Horde into wars they cannot and do not win? Is world domination really even a goal worth pursuing, and if so, why? Azeroth is obviously large enough for both the Horde and Alliance to exist, so why do they fight, and beyond the Doylist "there needs to be conflict for a game to exist" why is this fighting important?



Thrall's a Shaman, and although he has training as a Warrior it is through Shamanism that he wields the fantastical power he can wield. Beyond the long-debunked notion that "might makes right," and that strong or overbearing characters somehow deserve to lead, Garrosh's viewpoint was intrinsically flawed, so much so that his own people abandoned him in droves. Also, viewing peace as a "weakness" underscores a fundamental break with how both people and the dynamics of power actually work, both in fiction and in real life. History is replete with examples of where that philosophy has caused no end of strife, as well as the downfall of kingdoms and governments that support it.



Vol'jin is actively being reborn in Ardenweald, so he's pretty far from dead. The rest of what you said here is fanciful hyperbole.



Maybe so, and maybe not. The notion that something is true now implying that it must always be true is fallacious in nature, though.



You'd probably be surprised to find out what my main actually is, but that's immaterial to the debate. I disagree about Kul Tiras, as well, but that's more a subjective thing - I prefer Zandalar aesthetically and also story-wise, as I find Kul Tiras' lore to be kind of thin on the ground and uninspired comparatively (basic maritime/mercantile human nation). I've actually said I'd love to see more troll love in the game, as well; I'd really like to see Zandalar at its height via a CoT-like instance just to see what their civilization was really like before the Kaldorei's rise.



I've already quoted the relevant quest text to you, so no real need to recap already-covered ground here. Yeah, she was successful, but that success nearly cost her both her life and Mekkatorque's as well. That's not a flawless victory, it's actually a pyrrhic one. Not to mention that the end result of killing Rastakhan was actually galvanizing the whole of the empire against the Alliance, so while it remove the Golden Armada as a direct threat, it added an existential threat that wasn't there before. All in all, the Alliance didn't get a lot out of their victory in Dazar'alor.



Both the Horde and the Alliance are in pretty severe financial straits post-BfA. Kul Tiras is by no means a rich nation, they've been largely isolated for multiple years and their leadership was mired in corruption. And while neither the Highmountain Tauren, the Nightborne, nor the Vulpera bring much to Ogrimmar's coffers directly, they do bring other resources such as land (the Highmountain control almost all of Highmountain), magical expertise and wisdom for the Nightborne, and the Vulpera bring both ingenuity and resourcefulness. Whether or not you like the Horde aesthetic is a subjective thing.

Based on what you've said and your various positions here, I think you'd actually be happier as an Alliance partisan as opposed to a Horde one. Based on the above and other things you've claimed, you seem to simply like the Alliance better. That's not a bad thing, either; if you think the Alliance has better and more powerful characters and you don't like the rough/savage aesthetic of the Horde, then why not just back the Alliance instead?

Alright let me give you a serious answer since you are so eager to analyze everything I am saying here:

1. The fight is important for the Horde because in terms of fertile lands the Alliance got the better deal. The lands the Horde got are deserts mostly starved of any resources you need to survive. From clean water to food the list is long. Which was one of the main reasons Garrosh started the last war back in MoP. You see that logic yes?

2. Peace with the Alliance means weakness because it solidifies that the leaders of the Horde would rather see their allies being slaughtered in masses instead of actually taking a stand and stop the bloodshed by force. We saw that back in Cataclysm when Baine dismissed the destruction of Taurajo as "legitemate target" and banished all survivors from Mulogre who decided to fight back against Hawthorne and his men. SHowing once more that most of the Horde leaders have no problem droping their own people when they need their support the most.

3. As it stands right now Vol'jin is nowhere to be seen in Dragonflight so the chances are high we will not see him any time soon if the future. Him being dead right now is his final fate and he will show no support towards the Horde as we are concerned right now.

4. The troll civilization was great once yes but it has been destroyed by the alliance races mostly and it will never return for as long as the illegal occupation of Gurubashi and Amani lands continue. Stormwind and the high elves are the main enemies of the entire troll race. Also I am pretty sure your main character is from the alliance since you are always eager to ban players who take the mantle of the Horde to defend their faction on the forum while Alleria cosplayers fantaszising about killing Horde races never get banned at all.

5. Killing Rastakhan, depleting the Zandalari army and sinking their fleet has deleted any threat the Zandalari trolls could have ever posed to the entire alliance. Especially since the Horde council has already made it clear that they will not help Talanji to pursue revenge against Jaina and her allies which means the Zandalari as a race will most likley being forgotten by the devs since they are so weak right now they can barley control their own borders anymore.

6. The leadership of Kul Tiras is fully intact. I dare to say only Stormwind is stronger then them in total manpower especially thanks to their fleet that is unharmed and was on the search of Sylvanas on all oceans over Azeroth. House Ashvane, House Stormsong and House Waycrest are all in full support of Jaina. Meanwhile Talanji has to keep her own people from assassinating her in yet another rebellion that is trying to dispose of her. Aparai was just ione of them. More will follow. The Zandalari have reached a low point from which they will never be able to crawl out because Blizzard has shown us multiple times that they hate trolls and only add them as fodder for raids where they get killed.

Alright I am done. Feel free with the nitpick of dismantling my arguments since you seem to gain joy in isolating people who have a different opinion then yourself.

[Darth-Piekus]

So as I understand it is an Orc problem. It is weakness to seek for peace, trade aggrements,help from the other Horde Races and work the land turning it into an oasis with the river next to Orgrimmar but it is absolute strength to wipe the lesser races of Azeroth. You do know if it wasn't for the game needing two factions the Horde would have been dismantled by now with either getting hunt down to be exterminated (since they live in a world with medieval morals) or assimilated those who could be assimilated and the rest exiled from Azeroth.

Do you not see how wrong is this kind of thinking? It led to speeding up the Burning Legion invasion, released two Old Gods and helped the Jailer unmake reality.

[Aucald]

1. The fight is important for the Horde because in terms of fertile lands the Alliance got the better deal. The lands the Horde got are deserts mostly starved of any resources you need to survive. From clean water to food the list is long. Which was one of the main reasons Garrosh started the last war back in MoP. You see that logic yes?

Not really, no. The Horde *chose* to live in Durotar, they weren't forced there nor were they forced to remain. Thrall and his incarnation of the Horde reside in Durotar as a form of penance for the atrocities their people indulged in during the First and Second War, not the least of which was the despoilment and nearly complete destruction of their own homeworld Draenor. Garrosh doesn't get to be angry and poach the resources of his neighbors due to Thrall's decision to build their capitol in a harsh and hardscrabble land.

2. Peace with the Alliance means weakness because it solidifies that the leaders of the Horde would rather see their allies being slaughtered in masses instead of actually taking a stand and stop the bloodshed by force. We saw that back in Cataclysm when Baine dismissed the destruction of Taurajo as "legitemate target" and banished all survivors from Mulogre who decided to fight back against Hawthorne and his men. SHowing once more that most of the Horde leaders have no problem droping their own people when they need their support the most.

This again just leads back to a spiral of hatred with no conceivable end, where the Alliance and Horde keep killing one another because of whatever the massacre du jour just so happens to be. Baine, for all his faults, at least recognizes and tries to end a small part of the cycle of hatred - admitting that Taurajo was complicit in the warring throughout the Barrens and, as such, legitimate reprisal for the Horde's total destruction of Theramore. To paraphrase Taran Zhu, if every act of aggression requires immediate reprisal and every reprisal is viewed as an act of aggression, then the conflict will simply never end. It has become self-perpetuating at that point, and there won't be a victor save for the carrion birds.

3. As it stands right now Vol'jin is nowhere to be seen in Dragonflight so the chances are high we will not see him any time soon if the future. Him being dead right now is his final fate and he will show no support towards the Horde as we are concerned right now.

His being dead in Legion was considered his final fate, too; but he popped up again in BfA and Shadowlands as a character with a significant plot. He may well not appear in Dragonflight, but any character that gets several expansions worth of build-up is likely going to have a significant role in future events. It would be foolhardy in my eyes to just say "oh, that's over and done with" concerning Vol'jin at this point.

4. The troll civilization was great once yes but it has been destroyed by the alliance races mostly and it will never return for as long as the illegal occupation of Gurubashi and Amani lands continue. Stormwind and the high elves are the main enemies of the entire troll race. Also I am pretty sure your main character is from the alliance since you are always eager to ban players who take the mantle of the Horde to defend their faction on the forum while Alleria cosplayers fantaszising about killing Horde races never get banned at all.

When the troll empire was destroyed, there was no Alliance to speak of - it happened well before the Sundering before the Eastern Kingdoms even existed. Inclusion in the Alliance or the Horde isn't retroactive and temporally transcendent, either. Aggramar isn't a member of the Horde just because he just so happens to be the distant progenitor of the Orcs. As for the High Elves, the only real troll tribe with a strong beef with them would be the Amani, whose lands the High Elves settled in after the Sundering. A legitimate beef I would call it, but hardly universal among trolls - I doubt the Gurubashi care overly. The rest of the above isn't worthy of a response.

5. Killing Rastakhan, depleting the Zandalari army and sinking their fleet has deleted any threat the Zandalari trolls could have ever posed to the entire alliance. Especially since the Horde council has already made it clear that they will not help Talanji to pursue revenge against Jaina and her allies which means the Zandalari as a race will most likley being forgotten by the devs since they are so weak right now they can barley control their own borders anymore.

Talanji has an understandable desire to avenge her father's death, but the Horde is in no position to pursue further warring since the Fourth War nearly drove both it and the Alliance to the brink of annihilation. Like the point above, both sides have a list of grievances could they could pursue for eternity, at what point is it enough for everyone left? How many members of the Horde should the Kaldorei butcher to address Sylvanas' actions at Teldrassil?

6. The leadership of Kul Tiras is fully intact. I dare to say only Stormwind is stronger then them in total manpower especially thanks to their fleet that is unharmed and was on the search of Sylvanas on all oceans over Azeroth. House Ashvane, House Stormsong and House Waycrest are all in full support of Jaina. Meanwhile Talanji has to keep her own people from assassinating her in yet another rebellion that is trying to dispose of her. Aparai was just ione of them. More will follow. The Zandalari have reached a low point from which they will never be able to crawl out because Blizzard has shown us multiple times that they hate trolls and only add them as fodder for raids where they get killed.

Stormwind was down to drafting farmers and civilians by its own admission by the close of the Fourth War, so no, they're not really stronger in total manpower or any other such metric. Kul Tiras is a small maritime nation, and more than checked by Zandalar's entry into the Horde in terms of support provided to each respective faction. Talanji's issues with her own people also have nothing whatsoever to do with the Alliance or Kul Tiras but are an internal issue arising from their particular religious practices, and the fact the new royal patron of Talanji's house is a loa distrusted by the citizenry (with good reason). That being said, with its traitors ousted and its lands made more secure due to the elimination of the Blood Trolls and Faithless in Vol'dun, I'd say Zandalar actually stands stronger and more united than it was under Rastakhan's idle rule. Scarred, but still more than vital.